Spiritual questions answered here

[Flores]

Originally posted by (Q)
[BSo, what do you do when you are faced with a concept or experience that is incontrovertible yet completely contradicts your beliefs? [/B]

You act like the idiot that you are and try to learn. Please learn from some of these words of wisdom.

"The people who bind themselves to systems are those who are unable to encompass the whole truth and try to catch it by its tail; a system is like the tail of truth, but truth is like a lizard; it leaves its tail in your fingers and runs away knowing full well it will grow a new one..." Ivan Turgenev.

http://home.no.net/rrpriddy/lim/9.html

This site describes people like you perfectly. Read and reflect upon yourself.

"An African tribe in the bush somewhere were once shown a cowboy film. They took the events portrayed as quite real, to the extent that, at the dramatic show-down, they all cast their spears as one man at the bad man on the screen. It is claimed that science does not naively accept appearances, but analyses them so as to discover the reality behind. Most sciences and scientists, however, still fail to recognise or take enough account that there is also a reality in front of the screen of objective appearances, one to which all these outward events appear. This is consciousness, the essence of the human subject, of the observer and the interested participant in events, which is systematically 'overlooked' in chasing the miasma of a neutral objectivity in looking at the material world. "

 

[zanket]

one_raven – I don’t expect anyone to “get this” in a Q & A session. Books lay it out better. They don’t skip important points. I’m not here to prove that spirituality is better than something else. I’m just answering questions about spirituality as I see fit. As spirituality is to me. Anyone else will likely see it differently.

For me, spirituality is a mythology. This mythology itself is either true or false as one chooses, as the mythology itself says that about itself. If there were a better word than “mythology,” one that implied either true or false, I would use it instead. Within the mythology, some things are definitely true and other things are definitely false. When I say, “spirits exist whether or not we believe they do,” that is true within the mythology. From outside the mythology I would say “spirits exist whether or not we believe they do, unless they don’t.” I have explained how the mythology describes itself as either true or false, with the “is-not is” concept of God.

Is it worthless bullshit? As always, the choice is up to you.

Originally posted by one_raven
A wonderful fairy tale that has no basis in reality, but soothes your feeling of insignificance and the pain of life, and if you tell yourself that you believe it for long enough you just may acually believe it.
Kinda like telling your daughter that Prince Charming will come along and sweep her off her feet and they will live happily ever after.
A pretty tale that, in reality actually stunts growth, sets her up for disappointment and does much more harm than any temporary good it can offer.

Am I right?

This seems to be the key point of the rest of your post. If you feel insignificant, that is because you chose to feel that way. You could just as easily choose significance instead. And if you then feel significant, how does that have no basis in reality? Are your feelings not real?

Telling your daughter that something will happen does her no good, I agree. Teaching her that her beliefs affect her reality, that whether the glass is half-full or half-empty is her choice, or even better that it’s her choice whether the glass is abundantly full regardless of how full it is, that’s good.

Hevene put it perfectly: “This dull and harsh world is your perception, but it doesn't have to be like that.” It’s your choice.

 

[(Q)]

Floors

You act like the idiot that you are and try to learn. Please learn from some of these words of wisdom.

Is no one sharing the family brain cell with you?

Wisdom is something you know nothing about. As well, you’re puerile name-calling gets tiresome, but I completely understand because you have very little else to offer.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by zanket
The vacuum is nothingness, between me and the trampoline, providing relativity.

Did you not read what I wrote or do you not believe it? If there were nothing between you and the trampoline you would not be able to jump on it and if you could you would not be able to know that you were. What you perceive as the 'nothingness' is transmitted by photons; it's not nothing, it's something. Even nothingness is not nothing, at the quantum level all space, even that which contains 'nothing' is roiling with energy, force, and virtual particles. Our perception of material objects separated by the 'nothingness' of space is illusory; ultimately everything is an expression of the interaction of the primary forces.

If there were only one temperature, say, concepts related to temperature like “hot” and “cold” would be foreign to us. There would be no thermometers. The experience of the temperature would therefore be indescribable; there’d be nothing to relate it to.

I agree but this is not the same as duality. In actuality, there is no such thing as cold, "cold" is only a term that describes a relative level of heat. The duality is conceptual, not actual.

Spirituality, including the concept of God, can be considered a mythology that helps to achieve the goal of self-actualization. It lays out the shortest path to the goal.

Arguable, but even so it is then nothing more than a useful metaphor. This is fine, as all conceptualizations are metaphorical. The question is how useful and in what contexts they are useful.

The collective consciousness is everyone self-actualizing. Again there is nothing mystical about this. If enough people choose war, then war it is.

That's fine, but I find nothing profound in the observation.

Belief can also end war and famine.

You continue to exclude the middle (and most important) aspect. This makes the expression appear mystical, as if belief has a direct effect upon the world. But it doesn't. Belief affects action and it is action that changes the world. The manner of your expression makes a relatively mundane observation appear to be more than it is. The expression is further strained by linking it to spirituality, god, communal consciousness, the immortal soul, and previous lives. Rather than a usable metaphor you wind up with a fantastical paradigm that wanders farther and farther away from any confirmable experience.

~Raithere

 

[(Q)]

zanket

To the soul these are all worthy experiences.

OK, then according to the soul it’s perfectly acceptable to put a bullet in someone’s brain. Does that lead one to the conclusion that morality is a manmade concept and has nothing to do with the spiritual?

It is like a game; all of us physically living in this universe voluntarily and mutually agreed to be bound by the same physical laws, like gravity. Within those physical laws we have free will.

How can we have free will if life is nothing but a game and we are all pawns to the collective?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by (Q)
Wisdom is something you know nothing about. As well, you’re puerile name-calling gets tiresome, but I completely understand because you have very little else to offer.

So befitting of you. I offered you an example for where your logic fails in understanding the deeper essence of things and you came back with a total decoy.

Of course I understand your insistance on ignorance and simplicity. Your ignorance helps you sleep better at night, and sleep is essential for your health and surival?

Just like the African tribe accepted the cowboy movie for reality as long as the movie was playing, you are accepting the material world as your absolute reality. Go ahead and keep thinking that consiousness originates from the material bodies, perhaps the maggots that will consume your material body can give you some heads up on your life quest for the truth. The same way the cables and TV box can give the Africans insight about the lives of the cowboys.

 

[(Q)]

I offered you an example for where your logic fails in understanding the deeper essence of things and you came back with a total decoy.

No you didn’t, you called me an idiot. You’re one and only talent is that of name-calling, it exists in almost all of your posts. It shows just how immature you are and how little you know of communicating effectively.

 

[zanket]

Originally posted by Raithere
Even nothingness is not nothing, at the quantum level all space, even that which contains 'nothing' is roiling with energy, force, and virtual particles.

Force is transmitted with particles. Energy is particles. What separates the particles? If there is no nothingness between the particles, how do they move? Do they go through the particles always abutting them?

I agree but this is not the same as duality. In actuality, there is no such thing as cold, "cold" is only a term that describes a relative level of heat. The duality is conceptual, not actual.

Yes, God imagined itself divided, creating relativity.

That's fine, but I find nothing profound in the observation.

There need be nothing profound. I’m not here to prove that spirituality is better, or wiser, or deeper than something else. I’m just answering questions about spirituality as I see fit.

Yet I am amazed at how many friends of mine take war for granted. They believe that we will always have war.

You continue to exclude the middle (and most important) aspect. This makes the expression appear mystical, as if belief has a direct effect upon the world. But it doesn't. Belief affects action and it is action that changes the world.

I’m not going to pepper my answers with the obvious. How many times do I have to say there’s nothing mystical about it? When I say that belief can end famine, I do not mean that food will drop out of the sky with your belief. I gave a specific example regarding China’s Great Famine. For the most part, all those people had to do was ignore a despot’s bidding and tend their crops instead. That’s not a lot of action. It was their belief that doing the despot’s bidding was a better choice that was the primary underlying cause of the famine. If they didn’t believe it, they wouldn’t have done it.

In the case of some of the things people generally regard as the most important aspects of their life, the time between belief and actuality can be instantaneous. Such as being happy. And that is almost mystical, for so many people believe that their happiness is a result of their circumstances rather than a result of their choice about it. Simply believing differently can replace pain with joy. Not in a delusional way, but a real way.

The manner of your expression makes a relatively mundane observation appear to be more than it is. The expression is further strained by linking it to spirituality, god, communal consciousness, the immortal soul, and previous lives. Rather than a usable metaphor you wind up with a fantastical paradigm that wanders farther and farther away from any confirmable experience.

It is a useful metaphor, for me. For example, believing that life never ends makes it a lot easier for me to grow old with grace. Believing in God makes it easier for me to communicate with it; I get useful answers whether they come from me or God. My beliefs in spirituality explain the spiritual experiences I’ve had. The collective consciousness is something you have chosen to label fantastical.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Hevene
Knowing you are 2 metres talls is different to actually experience it, and to experience it you need something that is not 2 metres tall.

I disagree. If you are 2 meters tall then your experience is that of being 2 meters tall whether or not you can discriminate 2 meters from 4 meters. A better example is this: We all have the experience of being human; we will never have any other experience (past or future lives discluded). You cannot experience being a cat but you can know that the experience of being a cat exists because you know cats exist.

Have you never just looked at someone and you know exactly what they are thinking about?

Only through their expressions and/or gestures or though knowing the person well enough to predict their response to something. There is no evidence that supports telepathy.

Evidnece also suggests brain cells functions no different to other cells.

Um, no.

"Even though they are quite small, not all cells are alike. They differ in size, shape, and function (how they work)."

http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/CITE/bw_cells.pdf
http://www.learn.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=Unit&WCU=3337

Are you doing anything to stop people cutting down trees?

You're going to get me off on another tangent. Please excuse the immanent ecological diatribe in advance.

Globally and particularly in the U.S. this is not really a problem (Brazil and certain other areas excepted). In fact, properly managed logging and burning are intrinsic to the ongoing health of forested areas and the recent California wildfires are a nice little case study in how unabridged ecological 'protection' can result in devastation. But I have (along with other members of my family) put several hundred acres of northern woods into a conservancy trust and I contribute personally and financially towards its study and management. But honestly, this is more out of my personal fondness of the area and my desire for it to remain unchanged than out any ecologically sound reasoning.

Or using up all our natural resources?

I'm not really sure what that means, we hear it all the time but it really doesn't bear scrutiny. Most of the Earth's resources are renewable; trees grow back, water is filtered naturally. The issue is more one of population density and putting too high a strain on local resources than any global impact. The alarmist viewpoint is indeed unsettling but it is vastly exaggerated.

The real question is whether we can find a way to live with ourselves, whether we want to find ways of living 'cleaner' or want to wallow in our own filth, whether we want healthier ways of living or just easier ways of living. The Earth itself will be fine, pretty much no matter what we do to it... it's survived much worse than us. Whether or not we survive, how we will survive, and what will survive with us are different questions.

It is those world changing issues that I was talking about and those that I am concern about.

I agree. That's great. I'm just not sure what it has to do with spirituality.

I agree I oversimplified things.

That's okay, so do I.

~Raithere

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by (Q)
No you didn’t, you called me an idiot.

An idiot is not an isult. It's a compliment. At least I didn't really insult you and say that you have reached your point of competence.

Originally posted by (Q)
You’re one and only talent is that of name-calling, it exists in almost all of your posts. It shows just how immature you are and how little you know of communicating effectively.

If you are reading every one of my posts and making a statement about ALMOST all of my posts, charcterizing me and claiming to know me so well, then I'm very effective in reaching my audience. On the other hand, I get you, zero, and many others confused all the time. Which one are you again..?

 

[(Q)]

If you are reading every one of my posts and making a statement about ALMOST all of my posts, charcterizing me and claiming to know me so well, then I'm very effective in reaching my audience.

As effective as a child throwing a tantrum in a supermarket.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by (Q)

As effective as a child throwing a tantrum in a supermarket.

Poor children, they must have seen your ugly face in the crowd and recognized you as one of the characters of monsters inc.

 

[zanket]

Originally posted by (Q)
OK, then according to the soul it’s perfectly acceptable to put a bullet in someone’s brain. Does that lead one to the conclusion that morality is a manmade concept and has nothing to do with the spiritual?

That’s a 2-in-1 question. Yes and no. When you die, you’ll still have a personality, you may feel remorse for killing someone, or maybe not as in life. Whether in life or death, the soul part of you (you are always a body-mind-soul being) feels your remorse, but it calls any feeling good. Feelings are what the soul seeks. In death you will likely be reminded that morality is a manmade concept, that life is a game, and that nobody really dies, so that you can let go of the remorse.

How can we have free will if life is nothing but a game and we are all pawns to the collective?

When you voluntarily agree to a contract, your free will is not subverted when you are subsequently bound to the terms of the contract. The game is an agreement like this. You can opt out of the game at will.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by zanket
Force is transmitted with particles. Energy is particles. What separates the particles?

"There is no spoon." There are no particles as such and no empty space:

"Things are intertwined and interdependent to an unfathomable degree, just as the particles in an atom are. Although the electrons in an atom can be thought of as individual particles, they are not really individual particles, because of the complicated wave relations that exist between them. Hence, the electron cloud model describes the atomic structure more adequately. The sum of electrons in an atom cannot be separated from its nucleus, which has a compound structure itself and can neither be regarded a separate entity. Thus, in the multiplicity of things there is unity. Matter is many things and one thing at the same time."

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~vufors/HFIFO196.htm

I'd also recommend:

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/node3.html

There need be nothing profound. ... I'm just answering questions about spirituality as I see fit.

Perhaps I'm just not understanding what you mean by spirituality.

Yet I am amazed at how many friends of mine take war for granted. They believe that we will always have war.

That's a sad notion.

How many times do I have to say there's nothing mystical about it?

Again, this is okay by me, I'm just not seeing its relation to the topic and I find the presentation misleading.

Simply believing differently can replace pain with joy. Not in a delusional way, but a real way.

I agree, I'm happy most of the time because I choose to be.

It is a useful metaphor, for me. For example, believing that life never ends makes it a lot easier for me to grow old with grace. Believing in God makes it easier for me to communicate with it; I get useful answers whether they come from me or God. My beliefs in spirituality explain the spiritual experiences I've had.

And to some extent I'm fine with this but the challenge was to answer any question regarding spirituality... I have tons of questions.

The collective consciousness is something you have chosen to label fantastical.

Indeed. I have no reason to believe otherwise and I prefer explanations that are accurate over those that are comforting.

~Raithere

 

[one_raven]

Zanknet,

You believe in the collective consciousness and our ability to tap it (I admit, there have been some pretty impressive studies done Like this one that someone on this forum posted a link to ).
You also believe in reincarnation of humans and our ability to remember past lives due to the knowledge remaining with the soul.
The reason you believe in reincarnation is that children sometimes seem to remember past lives and have knowledge of other languages etc (I have read some of these accounts myself and admit they are pretty impressive if true).
Please let me know if I am misunderstanding so far...

If the above statements about your beliefs are ture, I have a question...

How do you know that these children are remembering past lives rather than simply tapping into the pool of knowledge contained in the collective consciousness?
How do you know which is accountable for the phenomena?

 

[zanket]

Originally posted by Raithere
"There is no spoon." There are no particles as such and no empty space:

You could be right, but I don't see it. With no nothingness, the universe should be infinitely dense as it was at the moment of the Big Bang; there should be no room for movement. The cosmic expansion is an expansion of nothingness within everything. I see no explanation regarding quantum foam as to how particles (or waves or whatever) can get from point A to point B when their every path is blocked by something.

In any case, if bleeding-edge physics is required to explain why there’s no nothingness, then the issue seems academic. This mythology is at a layman’s level. All “everything and nothing” is trying to explain is that God is both the matter and the space (apparent or otherwise) between the matter.

 

[Hemlock]

This is picky I know, but when you say 'no nothingness' you mean 'nothingness'. No nothingness would be something, at least.

 

[James R]

zanket:

I have a problem with your concept of nothingness. You seem to equate nothingness with space. If there are two particles separated by 1 metre, then there is 1 metre of space between them, not 1 metre of nothing. Space is not the same as nothing.

 

[zanket]

Originally posted by one_raven
You believe in the collective consciousness and our ability to tap it

I’m not ready to buy into that. It may be there just waiting for us to use it, and spirituality says it is, but for now I like to stay at the more mundane level where masses of people put their heads together to solve problems, build things, etc. I like to focus on belief because that’s where I see that the problem behind our problems primarily is. Once we believe we don’t seem to have a problem taking action to create a solution or whatever.

You also believe in reincarnation of humans and our ability to remember past lives due to the knowledge remaining with the soul.

Yes. I also believe in reincarnation because it makes sense to me. It makes sense to me that we are immortal, and if so, it makes no sense that we’d have only 1 life out of an eternity. I buy into the whole spiritual mythology because it makes sense (once you get the hang of it). I want God to be logical. I find it to be ultimately logical for God to allow both a theist and an atheist to be right. For the atheist to be right, God ceases to exist (“is not”). That’s elegant.

How do you know that these children are remembering past lives rather than simply tapping into the pool of knowledge contained in the collective consciousness?

That’s a good question. Perhaps they do tap into the collective. Seems convincing otherwise though when they point to a birthmark and say that’s where they got shot in their previous life.

How do you know which is accountable for the phenomena?

I don’t know. I’ve talked to many people who have visited a past-life transgressionist (like a hypnotist for past life remembrance). Every one of them came away amazed. An ex of mine used to talk in her sleep in a perfect British accent. She was killed in a riot there, so she said. Could be the collective, though. It’s a good point you raise.

 

[zanket]

Originally posted by James R
Space is not the same as nothing.

I see that. Thanks. “Everything” is absolutely everything, because space is something, not nothing. Right?