Spiritual questions answered here
- Thread starter zanket
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There is no right and wrong. You decide what is right and what is wrong and that's your experience, and what's the reality zanket talked about.
So, what do you do when you are faced with a concept or experience that is incontrovertible yet completely contradicts your beliefs?
So, what do you do when you are faced with a concept or experience that is incontrovertible yet completely contradicts your beliefs?
No, except that we have always been creating with free will. I purposefully forgot most of this when I was born, as did you. I can only tell you what I have remembered so far.
Yes.
Apparently the effects of a meteorite strike killed them off.
Yes. Anything that happens is ultimately part of the plan. The divine plan is that we experience fullest glory, by having free will to choose and the creative power to manifest our choices. We wish to experience it all, as does God through us.
I purposefully forgot most of this when I was born, as did you. I can only tell you what I have remembered so far.
Perhaps I did not choose to forget on purpose, nor did others. Why then can no one tell us what happened?
Apparently the effects of a meteorite strike killed them off.
If you assert we were the dinosaurs then this must have been the doing of us. Why would we kill ourselves off like that? How did that fit into the grand plan? Why didn’t your gods stop the meteorite?
Yes. Anything that happens is ultimately part of the plan. The divine plan is that we experience fullest glory, by having free will to choose and the creative power to manifest our choices.
Why do some choose to be murdered while others choose to murder? Why do some choose famine while others choose feast? Why do some choose to die of disease? Why do some (tens of thousands) choose to be wiped out in an Earthquake, like the recent one in Iran?
We wish to experience it all, as does God through us.
If your god wishes to experience murder, pestulance, catastrophes and disease, why does he not stop after the first experience but instead continue each and every day with no end in sight?
Perhaps I did not choose to forget on purpose, nor did others. Why then can no one tell us what happened?
Apparently the effects of a meteorite strike killed them off.
If you assert we were the dinosaurs then this must have been the doing of us. Why would we kill ourselves off like that? How did that fit into the grand plan? Why didn’t your gods stop the meteorite?
Yes. Anything that happens is ultimately part of the plan. The divine plan is that we experience fullest glory, by having free will to choose and the creative power to manifest our choices.
Why do some choose to be murdered while others choose to murder? Why do some choose famine while others choose feast? Why do some choose to die of disease? Why do some (tens of thousands) choose to be wiped out in an Earthquake, like the recent one in Iran?
We wish to experience it all, as does God through us.
If your god wishes to experience murder, pestulance, catastrophes and disease, why does he not stop after the first experience but instead continue each and every day with no end in sight?
I find the problem to be a bit more complex than that but essentially, I agree. But this seems to be a different claim than you were making earlier when you stated that belief causes famine. Generally, belief does not cause famine; over population, drought, disease, and pests do. But (practical factors aside) belief does prevent many people from helping to alleviate famine when it occurs.
Once again, I find this to be an oversimplification. The Universe does not seem to be made up of dualities. We do not experience either absolute heat or absolute cold but a gradient of temperatures. In fact, some experiences such as cold and darkness are not any 'thing' at all but are the lack of something. There is no such thing as 'cold', cold is merely a lower state of kinetic molecular energy (e.g. heat). But the absence of something is not the same as it's opposite. Practically, this is not such a big deal, we almost always simplify in conceptualizing the world around us but it can be problematic, particularly when attempting to reduce the world into primary principles.
Actually, I would say it's just the reverse. One would experience being 2 meters tall because one would be, in fact, 2 meters tall. Whether one could conceptualize this or, more accurately, imagine not being 2 meters remains elusive.
No, you've asserted that it is so but you have not given a reason for the assertion.
Through gestures or understanding one another well enough to predict their reactions (although the latter is not communication). There is no evidence so far that supports the notion of telepathy.
True, but neither does it mean that it does. Otherwise we might as well believe all fantasies.
This depends upon how you define consciousness.
Again, you're not providing any reason for believing this. The fact is that we can remove any other body part and consciousness remains (until the brain dies at least). And if we alter certain aspects of the brain, consciousness is altered. Evidence suggests that consciousness does occur in the brain.
The brain contains more nerve cells but does not contain a greater density of cells generally. In fact, seeing as nerve cells are typically larger than other types of cells the density is probably lower than in other areas.
Actually, the case for this is rather weak and typically very overstated and over-dramatized, but in fact I am very environmentally conscious and take particular care to be responsible.
Beg pardon for my presumption.
I can agree with that, it just wasn't coming across that way before. You seemed to be stating that consciousness was directly causal to reality.
~Raithere
Nothingness has nothing to do with it. All we need are relative variations or differences. One will note that there is not nothing between you and the trampoline, there is air. And even in a vacuum you would not be able to know you were jumping on a trampoline without photons/electrons and could not jump without gravity.
Please see my response to Hevene regarding duality.
Indeed, beliefs and ethics are subjective as they reside in the individual, yet there must also be a common ground on which for them to operate. Determining this common ground and how various subjective beliefs and morals relate to each other and to the common ground itself is the difficult part.
I don't really have any serious problem with this statement as it stands but in context you seem to be suggesting a bit more than self-actualization. Are we speaking simply of the psychology and behavior of the individual? If so, how does this relate to spirituality, god, and the 'collective consciousness' that Hevene describes? When I press the issue both you and Hevene seem to back away from the more fantastical assertions into something quite a bit more mundane.
~Raithere
zanket:
<i>Everything is all things; plural.</i>
Ok...
<i>God includes everything but is one thing relative to nothing, not many things relative to each other.</i>
If God "includes everything", then God <b>is</b> everything. So, all you're doing here is exchanging the label "everything" for the new label "God". In that case, distinguishing God from "nothing" makes sense, but remember, my initial complaint was that you said God was <b>both</b> everything and nothing. You seem to be changing your tune.
<i>To be one thing, absolutely everything, God must include both everything and also that which separates everything, which is nothing.</i>
No. That's illogical. Here are the questions you need to answer to justify your statement:
1. In what sense do you mean "separate"? Physical separation, or something else?
2. Why is something needed to separate everything?
3. How can "nothing" do anything (such as separate one thing from another)?
It seems to me that you're just waffling, rather than making any kind of persuasive argument here. It may sound profound to claim "God is everything and nothing", but when we look at such a statement in depth it simply makes no sense.
<i>Everything is all things; plural.</i>
Ok...
<i>God includes everything but is one thing relative to nothing, not many things relative to each other.</i>
If God "includes everything", then God <b>is</b> everything. So, all you're doing here is exchanging the label "everything" for the new label "God". In that case, distinguishing God from "nothing" makes sense, but remember, my initial complaint was that you said God was <b>both</b> everything and nothing. You seem to be changing your tune.
<i>To be one thing, absolutely everything, God must include both everything and also that which separates everything, which is nothing.</i>
No. That's illogical. Here are the questions you need to answer to justify your statement:
1. In what sense do you mean "separate"? Physical separation, or something else?
2. Why is something needed to separate everything?
3. How can "nothing" do anything (such as separate one thing from another)?
It seems to me that you're just waffling, rather than making any kind of persuasive argument here. It may sound profound to claim "God is everything and nothing", but when we look at such a statement in depth it simply makes no sense.
You can't......it is belief and faith, not reality. Not yet anyway or never will be but at present state it is faith.
I’m not sure to whom you address this question. I’d have to change my beliefs.
It seems the only people who do not forget what came before are some kids who rattle off past-life events soon after they learn how to talk. By age 5 or so they forget. An apparent quirk in the design.
It is like a game; all of us physically living in this universe voluntarily and mutually agreed to be bound by the same physical laws, like gravity. Within those physical laws we have free will.
To the soul all experiences are valuable, even being killed by a meteorite. That death can come at any time makes life more fulfilling (“life is too short to waste” is a refrain that encourages people to experience more than sitting on the couch). The soul knows that death is just a milestone in your life. It’s game over, but the game can be restarted. A game that never ends or always ends the same way or a game in which everyone wins is not as fun to play.
To the soul these are all worthy experiences. The soul’s purpose is to experience fullest glory--perfect love. The sum of all feeling is perfect love. Thus the soul seeks to experience every feeling. Experiencing life in every possible way, along with all the ways that death can come, is how the soul experiences every feeling.
We choose those experiences. God gave us free will and doesn’t intervene in our choices. Indeed, God’s purpose is to help us in creating that which we choose. Some people like to murder, some like hurricanes and earthquakes (me; hopefully I’m just visiting), some like disease (doctors; gives them something to fight). We can mitigate these experiences, and in many areas we have done that.
The vacuum is nothingness, between me and the trampoline, providing relativity.
I disagree with your response to her: “A person might live all their life in a heated room and never experience cold, yet they would still know the experience of heat.” If there were only one temperature, say, concepts related to temperature like “hot” and “cold” would be foreign to us. There would be no thermometers. The experience of the temperature would therefore be indescribable; there’d be nothing to relate it to.
Yes. Self-actualization is the goal. The difference between the results of self-actualization and “realizing a God-given creative power” may not be discernible. But the latter has benefits, described below.
Yes.
I’ll answer without regard to Hevene’s description. Spirituality, including the concept of God, can be considered a mythology that helps to achieve the goal of self-actualization. It lays out the shortest path to the goal. This is perhaps the biggest benefit to spirituality. For example, common themes in spirituality are that the highest self is realized through renunciation and being-ness.
The collective consciousness is everyone self-actualizing. Again there is nothing mystical about this. If enough people choose war, then war it is.
What fantastical assertions have I made and how did I back away from them? I said, “Better health is just one of the many ways that belief can optimize your experience. Belief can also end war and famine.” I stand by that. Belief can optimize (which includes mitigating) almost anything thought to be good or bad. And there is nothing mystical about it. Compare the creature comforts of today’s man to those of Neanderthal’s. All of those comforts are sourced in belief.
Wonderful...
Hi Zanket,
I warmly identify and agree with your flow on the spiritual. Some questions I have pondered on are:
1. If we as mankind individually and collectively create our reality (I agree), how do schizophrenics, autistics and other mental unfortunates fit in or add value to our collective conscious and therefore our reality? As you said these paradoxical issues seem to be experiences that shape and grow us on our journey in this reality. But mentally deficient beings do not seem to have the luxury of free will with which to make sound positive choices. Would these mental conditions be a karmic kickback? What are your thoughts?
2. We seem to experience our earthly reality via our senses. Touch, sight, hearing, taste and smell. If we eliminate all these senses, how do we experience reality? How do we communicate our reality to others? How would we understand our reality?
Go in peace.
Hi Zanket,
I warmly identify and agree with your flow on the spiritual. Some questions I have pondered on are:
1. If we as mankind individually and collectively create our reality (I agree), how do schizophrenics, autistics and other mental unfortunates fit in or add value to our collective conscious and therefore our reality? As you said these paradoxical issues seem to be experiences that shape and grow us on our journey in this reality. But mentally deficient beings do not seem to have the luxury of free will with which to make sound positive choices. Would these mental conditions be a karmic kickback? What are your thoughts?
2. We seem to experience our earthly reality via our senses. Touch, sight, hearing, taste and smell. If we eliminate all these senses, how do we experience reality? How do we communicate our reality to others? How would we understand our reality?
Go in peace.
No, I stand by God being <b>both</b> everything and nothing.
Yes, here I mean physical separation.
Everything is all things. If nothing separates the things, they are not separate. You have one thing at most.
Isn’t a vacuum nothing and yet doesn’t it separate the smallest particles? If I say “everything in the universe,” do you think of the vacuum as one or many of the things, or a void between the things? I think of the latter.
There are two concepts here. One is the nothing that holds everything. The other doesn’t require separation because there is only one thing:
Imagine yourself as being all there is. Where are you? Think of your size. Are you finitely sized, infinitely big, or a point particle? Size is indeterminate. Location is indeterminate. If you cannot say where you are, or anything else about yourself that requires relationship to something outside of yourself, do you exist? I say you both exist and don’t exist. An “exists-not exists” or “is-not is” thing.
In the mythology I’ve partially described above, God is an “is-not is” thing that divided itself into an infinite number of parts with nothing between them, becoming an “everything and nothing” thing. The division created both the physical (the “is” half of “is-not is”) and the metaphysical (the “is not” half of “is-not is”) universes. The division gave rise to--created--such relative concepts as “here” and “there” and “big” and “small” within the “is-not is” thing. These concepts did not exist before the division. Yet even after the division the “is-not is” thing remains an absolute (unrelated to anything else) thing. It can be said that from our perspective (as a part of the whole) that the division created everything out of nothing, for nothing was added to the “is-not is” thing to create “big” and “small,” or “this galaxy” and “that galaxy.”
Knowing and experiencing something is different. For example, knowing you can work out a hard maths problems is not the same as you worked it out and experience the joy of that. Knowing you are 2 metres talls is different to actually experience it, and to experience it you need something that is not 2 metres tall.
Have you never just looked at someone and you know exactly what they are thinking about?
Evidnece also suggests brain cells functions no different to other cells.
That's good. Are you doing anything to stop people cutting down trees? Or using up all our natural resources? It is those world changing issues that I was talking about and those that I am concern about.
I agree I oversimplified things.
How do you know the “unfortunates” are not blissfully happy, thus fortunate? I’ve seen some very happy mentally disabled people or at least they seem to be. Even the most disabled of them can still make choices about how they feel. They add value, for instance, by providing an opportunity to serve someone in need, fostering such soulful notions as empathy and generosity.
There is no karma, which contradicts free will. They either chose the mental condition, or chose to let the choice be made for them, perhaps by “chance.” You have free will always, including before birth.
These are senses of the body. The soul experiences through feelings, like anger and lust.
If you had no senses life would be grim, eh? I suppose you could still tell if you were being held upside down. That could be someone communicating “yes” to you. Right-side up could be “no.”
Tommy can you hear me?
Hi Zanket,
Thanks. Yup. We look at mental deficients from our reality, and I have often interacted with them and they do seem to be a lot happier than most. Almost as if they are not encumbered by the questioning mode. They seem to have a more direct link to god. My problem lies with sociopathic behaviour displayed by serial killers for example. Certain schizophrenics commit murderous acts in full confidence that they are behaving appropriately So their free will is not evil in their reality, yet their behaviour is evil. So is their "reality" o.k.?
Do you believe in judgement?
Go in peace.
Hi Zanket,
Thanks. Yup. We look at mental deficients from our reality, and I have often interacted with them and they do seem to be a lot happier than most. Almost as if they are not encumbered by the questioning mode. They seem to have a more direct link to god. My problem lies with sociopathic behaviour displayed by serial killers for example. Certain schizophrenics commit murderous acts in full confidence that they are behaving appropriately So their free will is not evil in their reality, yet their behaviour is evil. So is their "reality" o.k.?
Do you believe in judgement?
Go in peace.
No one does anything wrong given their model of the world, that is, in their reality. They indeed think they are behaving appropriately. The evilness of their behaviours comes from your persepective, your judgement on things.
Of course it's ok, but being ok doesn't mean it doesn't have concequences.
Remove the word evil, and the answer is yes. Again evilness is a judgement. Consequences occur regardless whether the actions are "evil" or not.
I'm not quite clear what this question is asking for. Consequences are things that results from the previous action, thought or feeling. I think it is spiritual in the sense that nothing happens without you allowing that to happen.
Since we determine that previous something, you choose to experience that consequence, though sometimes it is not clear what will happen when we choose to do certain things.
Let me see if I can break this down for myself....
First you say:
This is all the ravings of a delusional person.
I wonder if he believes:
If he does not believe he will die if he is shot then he will not die?
What a nut case.
How do these people survive from day to day?
Then...
Oh wait...
What is this?
You are saying that everything that you believe to be true is absolutely true, except for those things which can not be true or are impossible.
OK, I completely agree with you.
Then...
When asked:
So, what do you do when you are faced with a concept or experience that is incontrovertible yet completely contradicts your beliefs?
You answered:
It is starting to make sense.
Everything that you believe to be true is absolutely true, except for those things which can not be true or are impossible.
If you DO encounter something that contradicts what you believe to be true, then you will question your beliefs and revisit and re-evaluate what led you to that belief in the first place.
OK.
I am still in complete agreement,
Then something else comes out...
When asked:
Are we speaking simply of the psychology and behavior of the individual?
You replied:
So you are not actually talking about REALITY at all.
You are just saying that your perception of the objective reality that we all live in will be different than my perception of the objective reality we all live in because of our beliefs and how our past experiences color and skew what we actually experience internally even if the external experience is essentially identical.
So by forcibly changing what you allow yourself to believe you are effectively changing the filter through which you see the world, therfore using purposeful manipulation of your beliefs to act as a placebo you can try to convince yourself that you live in a Prozac universe.
So, what you believe does not have to based in fact or reality at all, as long as it is convincing enough to serve its purpose as an Opiate of reality and a soothing salve to dull and numb the harsh realities of the world in which we live.
No shit.
That's nothing new.
Christianty has been doing that for years.
So what does any of this self-deluding self-help bullshit have to do with spirituality, God, the soul etc?
I see.
Nothing at all!
Sprituality is simply a MYTH that you can allow yourself to indulge in as a means to an end to acheive that aforementioned palcebo so you can make-believe that God has the answers to it all, there is a grand plan to everything, nothing has any true consequences and life is shiny and happy.
A wonderful fairy tale that has no basis in reality, but soothes your feeling of insignificance and the pain of life, and if you tell yourself that you believe it for long enough you just may acually believe it.
Kinda like telling your daughter that Prince Charming will come along and sweep her off her feet and they will live happily ever after.
A pretty tale that, in reality actually stunts growth, sets her up for disappointment and does much more harm than any temporary good it can offer.
Am I right?
You are old enouogh for the truth...
Imagination is a wonderful gift.
It can take you to wherever you want to go.
Even places that don't exist.
But never forget, it is just pretend, just like movies.
Sorry to tell you, but there is no such thing as Santa Claus.
By the way.
I do not believe in objective morality myself.
But there is such thing as objective reality.
First you say:
And support it with:
And this:
My impression:
This is all the ravings of a delusional person.
I wonder if he believes:
If he does not believe he will die if he is shot then he will not die?
What a nut case.
How do these people survive from day to day?
Then...
Oh wait...
What is this?
So...
You are saying that everything that you believe to be true is absolutely true, except for those things which can not be true or are impossible.
OK, I completely agree with you.
Then...
When asked:
So, what do you do when you are faced with a concept or experience that is incontrovertible yet completely contradicts your beliefs?
You answered:
Then said:
OK.
It is starting to make sense.
Everything that you believe to be true is absolutely true, except for those things which can not be true or are impossible.
If you DO encounter something that contradicts what you believe to be true, then you will question your beliefs and revisit and re-evaluate what led you to that belief in the first place.
OK.
I am still in complete agreement,
Then something else comes out...
When asked:
Are we speaking simply of the psychology and behavior of the individual?
You replied:
OHHHHHH....
So you are not actually talking about REALITY at all.
You are just saying that your perception of the objective reality that we all live in will be different than my perception of the objective reality we all live in because of our beliefs and how our past experiences color and skew what we actually experience internally even if the external experience is essentially identical.
So by forcibly changing what you allow yourself to believe you are effectively changing the filter through which you see the world, therfore using purposeful manipulation of your beliefs to act as a placebo you can try to convince yourself that you live in a Prozac universe.
So, what you believe does not have to based in fact or reality at all, as long as it is convincing enough to serve its purpose as an Opiate of reality and a soothing salve to dull and numb the harsh realities of the world in which we live.
No shit.
That's nothing new.
Christianty has been doing that for years.
So what does any of this self-deluding self-help bullshit have to do with spirituality, God, the soul etc?
OH!!!
I see.
Nothing at all!
Sprituality is simply a MYTH that you can allow yourself to indulge in as a means to an end to acheive that aforementioned palcebo so you can make-believe that God has the answers to it all, there is a grand plan to everything, nothing has any true consequences and life is shiny and happy.
A wonderful fairy tale that has no basis in reality, but soothes your feeling of insignificance and the pain of life, and if you tell yourself that you believe it for long enough you just may acually believe it.
Kinda like telling your daughter that Prince Charming will come along and sweep her off her feet and they will live happily ever after.
A pretty tale that, in reality actually stunts growth, sets her up for disappointment and does much more harm than any temporary good it can offer.
Am I right?
I guess so.
You are old enouogh for the truth...
Imagination is a wonderful gift.
It can take you to wherever you want to go.
Even places that don't exist.
But never forget, it is just pretend, just like movies.
Sorry to tell you, but there is no such thing as Santa Claus.
By the way.
I do not believe in objective morality myself.
But there is such thing as objective reality.
And just how do you define delusional? Furthermore, you can never die, life never ends. And how do we survive? With all the happiness, love and the knowing that everything is ok.
Did he say that? The only thing that we cannot not be is love. We can experience that or we can fail to experience that, but either way, we are love. We created physical form, connected with everything else with our spirit or energy or whateveryoucallit. But love is all there is.
And what is this incontrovertible experience? Give me an example? (if you can)
We belief in things based on our understandings. They don't have to be true. We think they are true. But when our understanding changes, our belief changes. This doesn't mean we abandon our previous beliefs, we expand it to include higher understandings.
I agree with that.
This dull and harsh world is your perception, but it doesn't have to be like that. You rather choose pain over joy?
Shakespear: All the world's a stage, and the people, the players.