spidergoat,can i pick on you a sec?

[Bells]

Queue the Spidergoat jokes!!!

When Spidergoat does push-ups, he isn't pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down.

There is no theory of evolution, just a long list of animals Spidergoat allows to live!​

~String

Oh God!

You found the Chuck Norris joke site, didn't you?

Didn't you!!!

 

[Randwolf]

how do you propose one installs willingness in another?

Dunno, but omnipotence ought to be able to handle it, don't you think?

Love god

Sounds great, where did you find him / her/ it?

...treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated. Doesn't require a PhD

Agreed. :shrug:

Well you wouldn't have a world where one is free to pursue ulterior motives for a start

Sorry about that. Didn't know you had such interest in pursuing "ulterior" motives. Besides, literally, ulterior is simply "a motive, object or aim beyond that which is avowed." You seem to imply something evil inherent in the word. Please correct me if I misunderstand...

its more the case that in all circumstances one follows one's desire. its as simple as that

Is it? If so, why not instill the desire to believe and follow God's word? Is He tired and therefore this feat requires too much effort?

Even if we do get the so called peace you are alluding to, if our desire isn't on par we will simply bust our way back to the lake of fire

So called? Why, "so called"? How would this differ from "actual" peace? And why in the world wouldn't God set things up so that "our desire [would remain] on par"? Why cause this twisted desire to " bust our way back to the lake of fire"? Why? Why? Huh? Just Why?

what are we exactly willing to do?
Live in a universe that is obedient to our fickle desires?

You're missing the point. Instead of getting our "fickle desires", why not make it such that we desire what we get? That's the trick isn't it? Wanting what you get rather than getting what you want? So, again, why not set things up this way?

I mean for real - why didn't God just set things up so that we want what we get? How hard could that be for an omnipotent being capable of creating the entire cosmos? Surely a flick of figurative fingers would be more than sufficient for such a trivial parlor trick, right? Right, LG? Sounds more like a lack of will to create such conditions, if you ask me. Which you didn't. But, I'm asking you: Why doesn't God instill the desire in us to want what we get, rather than causing a fruitless pursuit of getting what we want? How hard can it be?

ha!
So you suggest that all daughters see eye to eye with their fathers on what constitutes benefit and ease?

Not at all. Wherever did you get such an absurd idea? What I'm suggesting is that an omnipotent (a word you seem to be intent on ignoring) father would be able to impart the wisdom necessary for His daughter to comprehend, understand and most of all desire to "see eye to eye" with her heavenly Father. Again, how hard can this be?

Perhaps the material world, with its exhaust-less reserves to frustrate the best thought out plans for material ambition, is already easing us

Can't comment here - factual inaccuracy as to "exhaust-less reserves".

Why isn't a father willing to do everything as dictated by his daughter's will?

You have this backwards - Why isn't a daughter willing to do everything as "desired" by her Heavenly father? This is MY question - I'm asking YOU! Should be an easy one... I eagerly await this simple answer.

 

[NMSquirrel]

If He (caps for you) is "able", and we are not "willing", why does He not appear to be able and / or willing to instill willingness in us? Surely that would be an easy matter for your God, and still leave room for "free will". Would not willingness naturally arise from knowledge?

it is my understanding that he created us with the ability to choose..he had the angels before us but they had no choice but to obey him, and i think that would get old fast,if everyone did whatever you told them to, how boring would that get..(yes it would be fun for awhile..but..)

the garden of eden was a test for us to realize that we have the ability to choose..

I'm referring to true knowledge, imparted by an able God, giving enlightenment to his children so that the path is clear. Why the propensity for "games"? Why communicate in cryptic parables and such?

the path is clear, he shows us everyday where to go, what to do, but our own humanity gets in the way and muddles it up,anyone who has children know what i am alluding to..sometimes you can be crystal clear and the kids will still find a way to distort it..

Again, it would seem such a trivial matter for a being with such unlimited power. Omnipotent power, to be redundant. In other words, what am I missing? What would be the downside if God "gave a brother a break" and let us know for sure, through utilization of means absolutely impossible to refute?

then we become dependant on such things..he has done many things and ppl will always atribute it to other things..it wont do any good for him to present something absolutely impossible to refute because someone will come along and try to explain why it is not god..

Is this some kind of test, whereby only those willing to stake their faith on shaky evidence (at best) get a free pass to Heaven and a "get out of jail free card" from Hell?

ah..a catholic attitude..what if they (the catholics) are wrong..and they just used that line to keep ppl in line..

IOW: how many times does jesus have to die on the cross to save you? once..he already did..one just has to accept that he did this for us to be able to even begin to understand..not saying we will ever fully understand, but i think he gives each of us a clue,in order to make sense of the clue god gave us we have to share it with each other..

no amount of studying i have ever done says that life is gonna get easier when we accept god..

So again, what is this hidden purpose requiring decryption of subtle (at least for some people) clues leading to hoop-jumping just so we can rest at peace knowing that our benevolent creator cares enough not to throw our immortal souls into some lake of fire, or the equivalent?

because some ppl think their clue is the only clue..
i would run if a preacher told me that god was talking through him directly or anything to the effect that he was more favored to god than me. we are all the same..

Seems to me that it is more a case of us being willing, coupled with God being able (taking your word for that), yet... Maybe God is the one lacking the will? Is that it? Is God unwilling to make it "easy" for us? Why?

1) he never says it will be easy.
2) if you took the struggle out of our humanity,we would be a world of spoiled rotten kids.
3)you could be willing and still miss the mark..remember we are only human,
(have you ever met a human who hasn't made any mistakes?)
4) see next response

Why? I'm sure you try to ease your daughter's life, right?

i assume you are talking specificly to me about my daughter?
if so..
LOL! HA..i have made my daughetrs life easier than most others..now i cant get rid of her!..yea, i love her and try to make her life a little less of a struggle, but does she appreciate it? probably, but i would like it better if she showed it by cleaning up after herself,

if you make it too easy on your kids they will grow up spoiled and rotten..
im sure its the same with god..

Why would our heavenly Father make this gift, the most precious gift of all, so difficult to attain?

again catholic retoric.its not so difficult..its just a matter of choice, our own humanity makes it difficult.

What would be the downside to easing the way, even for those having a hard time discerning the path?

again it boils down to choice, if they dont want to make the choice how can he make it any easier?

Answer these questions and you'll go further towards saving what I presume you would consider my "immortal soul" than all the religious indoctrination that I have been exposed to in my entire life.

ah..indoctrination..humanitys way of making it sound like we dont have any choice.
test all things hold onto what is good..
indoctrination says don't question..do as your told..test all things is in the bible, did they miss that?..this reinforces my point about religion screwing it up for god!

We're willing, why isn't God?

one common arguement i have heard is..if jesus (not some human) were to stand in front of you and told you to sell all your stuff, abandon your family, leave everyhting but the clothes on your back and follow him..would you?

if you even hestitated to answer yes, then you may not be as willing as you think you are..

as far as myself answering that question, if i knew beyond a shadow of a doubt it was jesus i would answer yes..but i also know my own humanity would convince me that it was not jesus so i would not say yes..
IOW allthough i am willing to serve, i still have to choose whether it is from god or not..

 

[Enmos]

|| Moved from "Free Thoughts" to "Religion".

 

[lightgigantic]

Dunno, but omnipotence ought to be able to handle it, don't you think?

not if it renders terms like "free will" obsolete, don't you think?

Sounds great, where did you find him / her/ it?

same way you find any important person in this world
find out their interests and work from there

Sorry about that. Didn't know you had such interest in pursuing "ulterior" motives. Besides, literally, ulterior is simply "a motive, object or aim beyond that which is avowed." You seem to imply something evil inherent in the word. Please correct me if I misunderstand...

to which you can also add .... (especially being kept*in the background or deliberately concealed))

IOW if you had a universe that clearly staged god as the ultimate central pivot point of all things, there wouldn't be a square inch where one could pretend he wasn't.

IOW you wouldn't have scope for a universe with illusion, which is kind of integral for a living entity decked out with free will minus omnipotence.

Is it? If so, why not instill the desire to believe and follow God's word? Is He tired and therefore this feat requires too much effort?

that desire is already there but it doesn't mean that its impervious to free will

So called? Why, "so called"? How would this differ from "actual" peace?

because without scrutiny of desire, it would be dysfunctional at best, hell at worst
And why in the world wouldn't God set things up so that "our desire [would remain] on par"? Why cause this twisted desire to " bust our way back to the lake of fire"? Why? Why? Huh? Just Why?

You're missing the point. Instead of getting our "fickle desires", why not make it such that we desire what we get? That's the trick isn't it? Wanting what you get rather than getting what you want? So, again, why not set things up this way?

I mean for real - why didn't God just set things up so that we want what we get?

consciousness requires free will as an integral ingredient

How hard could that be for an omnipotent being capable of creating the entire cosmos? Surely a flick of figurative fingers would be more than sufficient for such a trivial parlor trick, right?

what you are asking for is something like a square circle.
Its not something that can be accomplished with resources, even if they are infinite.

Right, LG? Sounds more like a lack of will to create such conditions, if you ask me. Which you didn't. But, I'm asking you: Why doesn't God instill the desire in us to want what we get, rather than causing a fruitless pursuit of getting what we want? How hard can it be?

I thought it was obvious that's what the material world is installing in us every second of the day.

Not at all. Wherever did you get such an absurd idea? What I'm suggesting is that an omnipotent (a word you seem to be intent on ignoring) father would be able to impart the wisdom necessary for His daughter to comprehend, understand and most of all desire to "see eye to eye" with her heavenly Father. Again, how hard can this be?

What you are asking for is that potency be capable of constructing logical impossibilities, like square circles

Can't comment here - factual inaccuracy as to "exhaust-less reserves".

huh?
You think its inaccurate to observe that the mortality rate has been 100% since time immemorial ... what to speak of if you start factoring in the impediments this world places in the pursuit of desire on a more day to day basis?

You have this backwards - Why isn't a daughter willing to do everything as "desired" by her Heavenly father? This is MY question - I'm asking YOU! Should be an easy one... I eagerly await this simple answer.

Because being a person by nature precludes being an automaton ... but of course, that said, we share the same nature as god so its not completely alien (IOW just like you are a person, god is a person - the only difference is that the medium of existence is not subservient to our desire since we don't occupy the position of being the summum bonum, etc ... IOW at the moment our free will is dovetailed with the desire to have the medium of existence subservient to our desire ... so the world shares a two fold purpose - namely to offer the opportunity to express such desires while simultaneously installing in us a sense that this desire is not capable of delivering satisfaction

 

[NMSquirrel]

|| Moved from "Free Thoughts" to "Religion".

sorry..i kinda expected that, after i hit submit..

 

[spidergoat]

I see.
Kind of make everything celery flavored in order to help us better wield our free will, eh?

Knowledge is inherently tempting, once you have the capacity to understand it. The Adam and Eve myth is interesting. It was the tree of knowledge (of good and evil). Does that mean originally God wanted us to remain ignorant? That sort of contradicts the message of Solomon.

 

[heart]

the garden of eden was a test for us to realize that we have the ability to choose..

A test? An all knowing God would have known the outcome before this "test"-so why set them up for failure? Adam and Eve were without knowledge of of good and evil...So you tell me, do you think Adam and Eve made the decision knowing that they were truly disobeying God? Do you think they knew the decision was the wrong thing to do but went ahead and did it anyway? What kind of test is it when they couldn't discern between good and evil? Seems like a very unfair- deck stacked against them test if you ask me.

if you make it too easy on your kids they will grow up spoiled and rotten..
im sure its the same with god..

I don't know of many loving parents that would throw their children into a lake of fire just because they don't follow their ways

 

[lightgigantic]

Knowledge is inherently tempting, once you have the capacity to understand it. The Adam and Eve myth is interesting. It was the tree of knowledge (of good and evil). Does that mean originally God wanted us to remain ignorant? That sort of contradicts the message of Solomon.

I'll leave it to the Christians to comment on that - my point was something else ... namely how puerile the world of illusion would be if everything was bland and there was no avenue in existence for the pursuit of it

 

[spidergoat]

Are you saying suffering and disease are what make the world interesting? Doesn't that mean the afterlife isn't interesting?

 

[lightgigantic]

Are you saying suffering and disease are what make the world interesting? Doesn't that mean the afterlife isn't interesting?

I am saying sufferring and disease are but some of the consequences of accepting a material ego .... Its what makes this world interesting (namely the opportunity to operate in - apparently - complete independence of god), or the strength of illusion, that make it seem like a good trade off despite the intrinsic difficulties such an existence affords.
(Kind of like traveling to the south pole to pursue the delight of taking photos there - if a person says it would be better if it wasn't so cold, they would also curtail their delight in journeying there. IOW their delight is not the suffering of coldness, but it is an intrinsic element in the environment of their delight)

Emerging from the grip of such a world view provides a different perspective, to say the least.

 

[Big Chiller]

Fine, then his existence is indistinguishable from his absence, and the theory is null and void.

Existence of God can be proven by reasoning alone but you can't expect an omnipotent being to be falsifiable.

 

[spidergoat]

I expect any reasonable theory to be falsifiable.

 

[Big Chiller]

Wouldn't it be fun if everything were falsifiable.

 

[Randwolf]

I expect any reasonable theory to be falsifiable.

spider, are you trying to inject the scientific method into

The religion forum?

Tsk, tsk - you shall surely burn, err, freeze, err... something for all of eternity.

 

[lightgigantic]

I expect any reasonable theory to be falsifiable.

Unfortunately its not even reasonable to bring your powers of falsifiability to a medium that contextualizes your senses/existence ... what to speak of an infinite/omnipotent personality

If you are yet to perform a dna test on your parents to falsify their claim of being your progenitors, it should be clear that you have other tools of reason at your disposal than falsifiability

 

[spidergoat]

It's not reasonable to assume there is such a thing as an omnipotent/infinite version of the thing we know to exist only in finite beings.

I have yet to perform a DNA test, but I resemble my parents, and I share some of their non-visual genetic traits. I have not proven that my mother was really mine, but there is enough evidence of other kinds to make it unreasonable to assume they are lying.

You have already assumed the existence of a deity, something for which you do not have reliable evidence. That isn't reasonable.

 

[Big Chiller]

It's not reasonable to assume there is such a thing as an omnipotent/infinite version of the thing we know to exist only in finite beings.

Who said anything about there being an infinite/omnipotent version of the thing we know only to exist in finite beings? Emphasis mine

 

[spidergoat]

Personality is something we don't find as yet anywhere else in the universe. It seems to be the product of complexity. Complexity is not apparent at the beginning of the universe, but it can be the product of evolutionary processes.

 

[NMSquirrel]

A test? An all knowing God would have known the outcome before this "test"-so why set them up for failure? Adam and Eve were without knowledge of of good and evil...So you tell me, do you think Adam and Eve made the decision knowing that they were truly disobeying God? Do you think they knew the decision was the wrong thing to do but went ahead and did it anyway? What kind of test is it when they couldn't discern between good and evil? Seems like a very unfair- deck stacked against them test if you ask me.

i think you misread my comment..the test was not for god but for us..we needed to realize that we are capable of making our own decisions,he knew what we would do..and your comment assumes a pass/fail mode of testing
it assume because we disobeyed and ate the apple equals failure..but i say we disobeyed and passed the test..god wanted us to.

I don't know of many loving parents that would throw their children into a lake of fire just because they don't follow their ways

there is that catholic retoric again...are you saying that is the ONLY way to think about it?