Somebody Calls this Christian?

Avatar: You haven't read anything from Carl Marx, have you?

Woody: Yes I studied the history of this German atheist.

Avatar: He declared God his prime enemy.

Woody: Actually he believed religion was the opiate of the masses and caused them to be irrational.

Karl Marx

Avatar: He believed in it and he wanted to stand against it.

Woody: He believed it posed a danger to his atheistic theory of government:

Marx the Atheist


Avatar: Communism is as much atheistic form of government as parlamentary democracy is.

Woody: Atheism was the state religion of communist Russia. Here read this link:

Religious intolerance in Communist Russia

How about this quote: For seventy years, the official state "religion" in Russia was Atheism.

Woody: Can you name an atheist that stood up against the German atrocities in WWII?

Avatar: No. I've never been interested in that.

Woody: So everyone was in on Germany's social darwinism and you concede that point.
 
SL said, Government - christianity = two different things.

Woody: America "One nation, under God, Indivisible" . So you aren't a GW basher.
 
I don't think Christianity is easily defined. Mostly people are self-identify as Christians. It usually has something to do with the bible, and Jesus. But, I would not say everyone that studies, admires, or emulates Jesus is a Christian. There are more extreme examples of Christianity that mainstream Christians would rather not identify with, but that happens in many religions. Many muslims don't think Osama is practicing a true form of Islam, but he does think so, so I would have to say it's just a more radical interpretation of the Koran. Jim Jones practiced a more radical interpretation of the bible, as do Mormons, and some new age groups. In spite of Christian attempts to standardise the religion, it gets out of their control, call it social entropy.

The bible teaches anyone that claims to be God is from the spirit of antichrist.
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But that's what Jesus is reported to have said, is he the anti-christ? I happen to think Jesus taught that everyone can embody the spirit of God as he did, which is the same as saying "I and the Father are one", the same as being God, really- a facet of the whole, and it was the early church that discouraged this view, since this idea was anti-authoritarian. But, mine is just one possible interpretation of the bible. The early church discouraged any alternative interpretations, and I think it is this authoritarian spirit that is anti-christ.

The bible teaches there is no reincarnation.
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Then what is the resurrection of Jesus but a form of reincarnation? Also, in revelations it talks about people rising out of their graves, that's also a form of reincarnation. Even dying and going to heaven is a kind of reincarnation, or at least re-spiritation.
 
Woody: said:
America "One nation, under God, Indivisible" . So you aren't a GW basher.
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"under god" was only added in the 1950s under the Eisenhower admin, if memory serves correct. Indeed, it should be returned to the original form. I also believe that the nation's motto should be returned to it's original "E Pluribus Unum" instead of it's current and exclusive, "in god we trust."

Freakin' fundamentalists even abused the political advantage of a majority religion back in the 1950s... Eisenhower has proven a role model of GW Bush (who would be the real anti-christ -if one could exist) in this regard: taking advantage of hapless, under-educated believers to further the corporate agenda.
 
Fareheight 451:

how many other sects are not following the Biblical Standard, and this includes yours.
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Now you are getting back to the original question. What is the standard for deciding whether someone is indeed a christian, or if they're a fake that just claims the name for expedience?
 
SG said,

Jim Jones practiced a more radical interpretation of the bible
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Woody: What interpretation might that be? Could you please elaborate?
 
Skinwalker:

Freakin' fundamentalists even abused the political advantage of a majority religion back in the 1950s... Eisenhower has proven a role model of GW Bush (who would be the real anti-christ -if one could exist) in this regard: taking advantage of hapless, under-educated believers to further the corporate agenda.
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So would you say that Bush and the fundamentalists (including myself) are anti-Israel and antisemitic as someone else stated? That is what this part of the thread is about.
 
I couldn't say. But the motto/pledge info was intended to support the notion that government and religion were originally intended to be separate ideals - and if they aren't kept separate, our country is destined for ruin.

Theocracies are unstable and more temporary.
 
Woody: The bible teaches anyone that claims to be God is from the spirit of antichrist.

S/G: But that's what Jesus is reported to have said, is he the anti-christ?

Woody: Jesus is the one that said there would be many antichrists that come after him and they would claim to be the christ. It is ok for God to say he is God. Jesus' resurrection prooves He is God. Did Koresh, Jones, Father Devine, Mohammed, or anyone else get resurrected after they died? Nope -- their graves are still occupied and the worms are still crawling over the bones.

SG: Then what is the resurrection of Jesus but a form of reincarnation? Also, in revelations it talks about people rising out of their graves, that's also a form of reincarnation. Even dying and going to heaven is a kind of reincarnation, or at least re-spiritation.

Woody: The resurrection is different from the reincarnation that you think about. A person that is resurrected will be recognizable by everyone that knew him or her, and there will be no question about who they were in their life on earth. They will even remember their life on earth. The cognitave ability of that person never ceases to exist as it does in the eastern interpretation of reincarnation.
 
Woody: America "One nation, under God, Indivisible" . So you aren't a GW basher.
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I'm not American, and nor do I like politics - so I personally do not have problems with Bush. In my country however a statement like that is moot. Our bank notes have real people on them, (such as Darwin), and do not even hint at spacebound entities - and our anthem shows repsect for the queen, not a sky being. We don't even have to swear on the bible in court.

But in either case it remains that government and christianity are two different things.
 
Avatar said: Never trust a christian priest, they are cowards and ass lickers. Of course that can be understood, for fear is the major fueling force behind christianity. Fear is a weakness and cowards are weak people.

Woody: Yet many christians have died as martyrs, their only sin being that they said they believed in christ. How do you reconcile your statement with the following facts:

Justin Martyr's appeal to the Roman Senate

excerpt from thread: CHRISTIANS UNJUSTLY CONDEMNED FOR THEIR MERE NAME.

All of Jesus' disciples were executed for their faith except for John who died a prisoner on the Ilse of Patmos where he wrote the book of revelation.

Were it not for these people of faith we would not have the new testament of the bible today. They gave their lives,as did the savior Jesus Christ, so you could comfortably pick up the bible in your study and ridicule them as fools. Jesus knew what was coming when he went to the cross, and so did the martyrs.

And so it has been for christians down through the ages. The pilgrims left england in 1620 to escape religious persecution. Have you read about this in your history text?

So how do you reconcile your statement with these events?
 
Woody said:
Were it not for these people of faith we would not have the new testament of the bible today. They gave their lives,as did the savior Jesus Christ, so you could comfortably pick up the bible in your study and ridicule them as fools. Jesus knew what was coming when he went to the cross, and so did the martyrs.

And so it has been for christians down through the ages. The pilgrims left england in 1620 to escape religious persecution. Have you read about this in your history text?

So how do you reconcile your statement with these events?
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martyrdom is 99% religious, so what of all the people killed and perscuted for not being religious.
what of all the books written by non-believers, just because you have a bible does not mean, it's anything special.
there is not factual evidence for any of these aledged martyrs in the history books, facts woody facts.
incidently the The pilgrims left england in 1608 to goto holland then after 12 years returned to england, to obtain the backing of the Virginia Company, to goto america.
their was no persecution.
do you write your own history, woody.
 
pavlosmarcos said:
martyrdom is 99% religious
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Any woman who has been betrayed by her husband but stays with him anyway even though she leads a miserable life, is a martyr. There's plenty of them.
Any man who makes a career out of not being the coolest guy in town and then becomes a loser, is a martyr. There's plenty of them.
And so on.
 
Pavlos said: there is not factual evidence for any of these aledged martyrs in the history books, facts woody facts.

Woody: Where do you think the word "martyr" came from -- Justin Martyr **hint **hint. He was a christian **hint **hint

A quote from Juston appela to the Roman senate:

Again, if any of the accused deny the name, and say that he is not a Christian, you acquit him, as having no evidence against him as a wrong-doer; but if any one acknowledge that he is a Christian, you punish him on account of this acknowledgment.
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Is this document fact enough for you:

Justin Martyr's 1st Appeal

Where is your reference that denies it?

Pavlos: incidently the The pilgrims left england in 1608 to goto holland then after 12 years returned to england, to obtain the backing of the Virginia Company, to goto america.
their was no persecution. do you write your own history, woody.

Woody: No I just learned the american history taught in our own secular public schools here in the US. 1620, Plymoth Rock, Mayflower, Pilgrims, escaping religious persecution from authorities in england. Why don't you study a little bit of history, and you will get the facts you are looking for. Why do you think we have a thanksgiving holiday in america?

Pilgrims Persecuted to America

I thought this stuff was common knowledge.
 
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Woody said:
From the poll concerning the occult, I find christians and non-christians have a consistent bias on the characteristics that identify a christian. Non-christians for example give Jim Jones the christian moniker. Christians give Jim Jones the demon label.

Jim Jones was ordained by the Disciples of Christ. I don't see where he attended college, but I am still looking.
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Unfortunately, Woody, what you've shown is that it is the Christians who are biased. Of course, from the point of view within the Christian religion, Jim Jones certainly wasn't a very good Christian. But from a completely dispassionate view, clearly Jim Jones' upbringing was Christian and he believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. From any point of view, he certainly wasn't a very Christian Christian (John Humphrys of the BBC once memorably responded to an interviewee, "That isn't a very Christian attitude, Rabbi.")

You certainly, within the confines of Christian theology could claim that Jones was misled by the devil, but to state that he was some kind of "demon" implies that he went out of his way to worship demons or the Devil, which clearly isn't the case. What else would he be? He wasn't a Muslim, he wasn't a Buddhist, he wasn't a Hindu, he clearly wasn't an atheist or agnostic and he was "ordained" by a body with "Christ" in its name. So he must have considered himself (in a clearly distorted way) a Christian. That doesn't mean that Christianity should be disparaged just because Jim Jones was a member.

You need to get a better sense of perspective, Woody. You're acting as though Christianity is suffering some major slur because of the actions of this one nutter thirty or more years ago. How do you think ordinary, genuine, believing muslims feel these days .... who must face some Osama Bin Laden/Saddam Hussein-inspired slur nearly every day?
 
Silas,

All I can say is that the way of Jesus leads to life and the way of satan leads to death. I don't care about the name brand anyone wants to give them.

I am convinced that Jesus is in heaven and Jones is in hell.
 
Woody: All I can say is that the way of Jesus leads to life and the way of satan leads to death. I don't care about the name brand anyone wants to give them. I am convinced that Jesus is in heaven and Jones is in hell.
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M*W: Since no one has lived to tell about it, in that "the way of Jesus leads to life" or that "the way of Satan leads to death," the assumption of your conviction is pure conjecture since you have no evidence to back-up your statement. Many people are "convinced" that Jesus is in heaven, but that's not what Jesus taught! Jesus taught the "kingdom of God is within."
 
Woody said:
I thought this stuff was common knowledge.
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firstly there seem to be a lot of info on justin the martyr, so I will accept the could be historical evidence for him, but I will have to do so more research.
however,
MARTYR is from the Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation. It is in this sense that the term first appears in Christian literature; the Apostles were "witnesses" of all that they had observed in the public life of Christ, as well as of all they had learned from His teaching, "in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts, i, 8).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm

justin was born a hundred years later, martyr is not his surname, for someone who constantly blows his own trumpet regarding his intelligence you are really thick, he was called justin the martyr.
http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/JEK/06/01.html
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj29.htm
you do make up you own history.

and regarding the pilgrim fathers,
they found the english church tobe unfriendly to their strict religious taste, so they when to holland which was more to their liking, but they certainly were not perscuted.
 
Pavlos said: for someone who constantly blows his own trumpet regarding his intelligence you are really thick, he was called justin the martyr.

Pavlos said: there is not factual evidence for any of these aledged martyrs in the history books, facts woody facts.

Quotation from Your source: He (Justin Martyr) opened a school of Christian philosophy and accepted students, first at Ephesus and then later at Rome. There he engaged the Cynic philosopher Crescens in debate, and soon after was arrested on the charge of practicing an anauthorized religion. He was tried before the Roman prefect Rusticus, refused to renounce Christianity, and was put to death by beheading along with six of his students, one of them a woman. A record of the trial, probably authentic, is preserved, known as The Acts of Justin the Martyr.

Woody: Ok I'll get my greek straight if you'll get your math straight. Your reference says 7 people were martyrized because they would not renounce their religion. The origin of the word "martyr" is greek but the practice of killing christians in the 1st century was Roman. Call them what you want -- they're dead. You wanted facts -- there are seven facts for you.
 
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