Somalia's Council of Islamic Courts

[Michael]

Somalia's Council of Islamic Courts was, in part, started and run by a man by the name of Hassan Dahir Aweys, and perhaps still is - I'm not sure if he's still around. Anyway, I was thinking: OK we have this relatively poor country with a bunch tribes all fighting one another. Hassan Dahir Aweys professes that God has called on him to act as His messenger and over time he gathers a crew of people who believe him and off they go to fight against the established rulers, per-usual. The more battles he wins the more people flock to him. Soon all of Somalia is in his hands.

To the uneducated goat and camel herdsmen He clearly must be the true Messenger of God.

Why else would he be winning? Duh…

Now, at this point in this story Hassan Dahir Aweys gets bitch slapped by Ethiopian forces and thus fads into the pages of history. Yet, let’s suppose that things had taken a different route and he instead conquered Ethiopia. Then he sets about ruling his new domain under the authority that he is God’s messenger. Now, historically this isn’t all that uncommon and why I brought it up. For example: Alexander of Macedonia, Julius Caesar, The Pharos of Egypt, all of the Kings of Europe, Mohammed in Saudi Arabia, etc…. have acted somewhat as such.

Doesn’t it seem a little moronic to worship these guys or revere them as messengers of God?

Why do it?

- The Pharaohs were worshipped as Gods for 5 millennia! Longer than anyone else.

- Alexander was worshipped for 1100 years by people dwelling in the deserts of the Middle East and is even a character in the Quran – oddly enough he is considered a Muslim even through he claimed to be the God Amun… weird huh?

- Julius Caesar was worshipped as a God after his death, promulgated by Augustus, and whose position as the Pontifex Maximus (high priest of the College of Pontiffs) is surely a forerunner of Catholicism?

- The Kings in Europe all maintained they were God’s representatives – and thus they got the perks that the small folk weren’t entitled to.

- Mohammed conquered a few insignificant tribes in the deserts of the Arabian peninsula. Sometime after his death (no one knows when or by whom exactly) through one means or another much of the “Torah” was rewritten into Syriac and became called the “Qur’an” – about 70% in total I was told. Nevertheless, Mohammed is still worshipped as a true Messenger of God even today.



Would anyone here worship Hassan Dahir Aweys as a messenger of God? The Pharos? Alexander? Julius? I should hope not. Yet many so, worship/revere Mohammed as a messenger of God. Doesn’t it strike you to be just as odd? Now I’m not being derogatory – but it seems odd. If its not as odd - why not? Because to me, I see no major difference - other than time frame. I can forgive peoples of 7000 years ago – as they were uneducated goat and camel herdsmen and frankly life was what they were told it was. Him Pharaoh... He God ... you Worship ... we get fertile ground.... we eat, shit, fuck, sleep – done.

Yet – the educated people of today!?! 2007. That’s unthinkable. It’s equally as unthinkable, to me, to revere Hassan Dahir Aweys as it would be to revere any other warlord – yet many do likewise for Mohammed (well and Bush I should note – which is even odder as he’s a loser!).


Different perspective:
It’s the year 3000.
Hassan Dahir Aweys had captured Ethiopia and Kenya. He sat down and rewrote the Qur’an into a new book called The BlaBla fixing those things that had sidetracked from the original teachings of God and weren’t written by whomever whenever into the Qur’an correctly - so he had to fix them. Gods Messengers have this prerogative by the way. Heck - they have to if they want to stay in charge. No point keeping things the same, someone can challenge you for power - no no you must rewrite stuff. Because only you can hear God in your head. Therefore no one can challenge you. Anyway, on the back of his success his followers, over the next few hundred years conquer Africa. In the year 3450Billions of people revere Hassan Dahir Aweys as the Last true Messenger of God….


Wow it just blows my mind,

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Anyway, I was thinking...

Wow!

 

[spidergoat]

Everyone thinks their guy is the best, and if they are religious, they will think their leaders are expressions of that religion. If you already believe there was one messenger of God, two or more isn't that much of a stretch.

 

[Michael]

Maybe I am not getting this point across well enough.

- There is a clear Historic trend to worship people who do well in battle.
- Politically savvy Generals always maintain to have the backing of God (Bush or the Ayatollahs are typical examples).
- Always Always Always in antiquity it was imperative to be blessed by God to be a successful General.
- Now, IMHO, it seems unreasonable to worship Hassan Dahir Aweys as a true Messenger of God – perhaps because of timeframe but also because he’s a loser and no one reveres a loser. Which is why I set up an alternative history. To try and see things from purely hypothetical angle.


- OK, so, in the case of Mohammed, if we are purely looking at his role as a historical figure - He simply united a very small area of land of relatively insignificant small tribes. Agreed? Not only this they shared a common culture so the job was not all that difficult - strategically. I think most can agree, relative to Alexander or Genghis Khan, militarily, this was a pretty small feat. Yet – his immediate successor did annihilate Persia and establish the rules and book of a new religion.


Assuming the Mohammed is no more a messenger than our fictional version of Hassan Dahir Aweys is – why is it he is revered as a Messenger?

Well, the Pharaohs were for 5000 years, Alexander for 1100, Julius 500+, etc… what is it with us people that we feel this compulsion to act as such? I’m sure if we could travel to the year 3450 and see a Billion Aweysiums worshipping BlaBlaism we would be hard put to say they were anything other than deluded. Yet, we are not able to bring this same rational to our own present beliefs?

Why?

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

So why did the Mongols and Turks who conquered Arabia adopt Islam?

Why did the Indians (in 630 AD), the Indonesians and Malaysians?

 

[Sputnik]

Eeeeh - Michael ,
I actually think Muhammed covered that option - claiming that he was the last prophet and that the Koran , was the final revelation from God ....
So if Hassan claims he is a messenger from God and writes the Koran into blabla ....then he just might have a problem with the muslim people.......

 

[spidergoat]

Oh, I see what you are getting at. If they win, they are worshipped and admired, why are they still so when they lose? Why do people still play slot machines at Vegas after they lose? Why do we still root for sports teams that lose? It's human psychology. We see the good and ignore the negative. We acknowledge when prayer works, but not when it doesn't. We believe in winning streaks and losing streaks.

It can be rationalized as a test of faith.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh, I see what you are getting at. If they win, they are worshipped and admired, why are they still so when they lose? Why do people still play slot machines at Vegas after they lose? Why do we still root for sports teams that lose? It's human psychology. We see the good and ignore the negative. We acknowledge when prayer works, but not when it doesn't. We believe in winning streaks and losing streaks.

It can be rationalized as a test of faith.

So whats the difference between Arabs and the Mongols?

Why are both following Muhammed?

 

[Sputnik]

I can´t remember everything - but I think the turks were turned into muslims , before they conquered Arabia ......

The mongols showed great interest in christianity - and while they were buddhists Kublai Khan even asked Marco Polo to send christian envoys and missionarys to him so the mongols could change religion - he failed to do so ...
And since they were ready to change religion they ended up changing into islam - there were several muslims at the court of the Khan .....

Assimilation of culture and religion and survival of the best fitted ..... sometimes helped with a knife to your throat ....:m:

 

[S.A.M.]

I can´t remember everything - but I think the turks were turned into muslims , before they conquered Arabia ......

The mongols showed great interest in christianity - and while they were buddhists Kublai Khan even asked Marco Polo to send christian envoys and missionarys to him so the mongols could change religion - he failed to do so ...
And since they were ready to change religion they ended up changing into islam - there were several muslims at the court of the Khan .....

Assimilation of culture and religion and survival of the best fitted ..... sometimes helped with a knife to your throat ....:m:

So the Mongols embraced Islam because all of them were tired of being Buddhists? They conquered from Central Asia to Arabia (as pseudo Buddhists who were Christian wannabes), and embraced Islam because they wanted a new religious system that gave women the divorce, a share in their wealth and the right to refuse marriage?

A system that " from the first denounced aristocratic privilege, rejected hierarchy, and adopted a formula of the career open to the talents" ?

That "condemned practices of the Arabs such as female infanticide, exploitation of the poor, usury, murder, false contracts, fornication, adultery, and theft. [3] He states that Muhammad's "insistence that each person was personally accountable not to tribal customary law but to an overriding divine law shook the very foundations of Arabian society... Muhammad proclaimed a sweeping program of religious and social reform that affected religious belief and practices, business contracts and practices, male-female and family relations.""



Why?

 

[spidergoat]

So whats the difference between Arabs and the Mongols?

Why are both following Muhammed?

They happened to pick a team, and they are loyal to it. The real question is why is religion so appealing, and why some religions more than others?

 

[Sputnik]

Not all of them - the Khan was - and people allways obeyed the Khan in those days .....

 

[S.A.M.]

Not all of them - the Khan was - and people allways obeyed the Khan in those days .....

Which Khan?

see edit of previous post.

 

[S.A.M.]

They happened to pick a team, and they are loyal to it. The real question is why is religion so appealing, and why some religions more than others?

So why would the Mongols pick the team of an occupied country?

Where else has this happened?

Various members of the Mongol Court, including Sorghaghtani Beki, were Nestorian Christians. Mongols were originally shamans who pray to the supernatural God they believed existed beyond the sky and look down from the heavens. The Mongols and Genghis Khan maintained a policy of being open to all religions, it was known as particularly sympathetic to Christians (which may have helped contribute to the legend of Prester John). In 1253 the court followed the suggestion of Crusader Kingdoms in Syria and attacked the Muslim capitals of Baghdad and Cairo, dispatching an enormous army commanded by Hulagu Khan. Baghdad was conquered and sacked in 1258, with the city's Christians being spared and the Abbasid caliph killed.

 

[Michael]

So why did the Mongols and Turks who conquered Arabia adopt Islam?

Why did the Indians (in 630 AD), the Indonesians and Malaysians?

I don’t know. I’ll take a guess.

Mongols and Turks never imposed a religious system on the people they conquered. If they had then the present day Turks would most likely be that religion. As they didn’t we can assume that as people settled and married with the local subjugated populous they adopted the local religion. Many Mongols settled in Eastern European – they are Xian. It’s not that surprising – is it?

My guess about India (certianly Northern India - much like Persia) they were conquered by Muslim Armies (much like the New World was by Xians – only on a vastly smaller scale when compared to the wholesale slaughter the Xians achieved). That is usually a good incentive to convert – hence Pakistan. Just look at the new world - almost all Xian. It's no wonder is it???

Also, remember that being a Muslim conveys a lot of special privileges and so in a time where it’s hard to eat - any edge will be taken. I’d be Muslim too if I thought it’d get me an extra loaf of bread now and again. Remember how Xian weren’t allowed to convert to Islam – to maintain the tax base. Obvioulsy many Xians wanted to convert just for tax relief! So there are many reasons huh?

I think, but really have no idea, that Indonesia and Malaysia converted much the same way that Fijians converted to Mormonism.
Missionaries with a good story to sell,
Missionaries with sweet Trade deals to be made,
Missionaries from exotic places with exotic stuff etc…
Missionaries with the power to raise a peasant up out of the mud….
LET ME IN ON SUM DAT!!! hehehe… you get the point though.
Indonesia and Malaysia are on an Arabian trade route to China. Even Vietnam had a little Muslim trade community. But Chinese never really thought much of Islam so it kind of didn’t make inroads from there. They did maintain a couple nice Mosques in Bejing for Trade purposes. But hardly any Chinese converted – Chinese were rich, had a much longer history, and where culturally well defined. Indonesian and Malay were hardly so.

Another good question may be: With 1400 year of contact with Islam, if the message is so compelling, why didn’t Chinese convert? Now ask why would Indians, who were equal to the Chinese culturally and historically; why did Indians with such rich traditions and set religions convert?? Why?

What was the major difference b/w India and China? Perhaps the only answer is the wars?

All that aside, you know, I see many people “converting” to Scientology - - all the time in front of Town Hall – where they maintain a stand a times. Why I have no idea.


So yes there are many reasons why people convert to into Islam, out of Islam, into Baha’i out of Baha’i, into Scientology etc… which may have nothing to do with Warlords.

So,
Do we agree that in antiquity many War Generals, by necessity, maintained they and they alone had the blessing of God(s)?


My question is: Why do you suppose that today in the year 2007 so many people continue revere the Arabian General Mohammed (I’m thinking purely as a Historical figure – which is why I said General) as having been in touch with God when clearly most rational people would never do likewise with a modern day General?

Or would they?

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

I don’t know. I’ll take a guess.

Mongols and Turks never imposed a religious system on the people they conquered. If they had then the present day Turks would most likely be that religion. As they didn’t we can assume that as people settled and married with the local subjugated populous they adopted the local religion. Many Mongols settled in Eastern European – they are Xian. It’s not that surprising – is it?

My guess about India (certianly Northern India - much like Persia) they were conquered by Muslim Armies (much like the New World was by Xians – only on a vastly smaller scale when compared to the wholesale slaughter the Xians achieved). That is usually a good incentive to convert – hence Pakistan. Just look at the new world - almost all Xian. It's no wonder is it???

Also, remember that being a Muslim conveys a lot of special privileges and so in a time where it’s hard to eat - any edge will be taken. I’d be Muslim too if I thought it’d get me an extra loaf of bread now and again. Remember how Xian weren’t allowed to convert to Islam – to maintain the tax base many wanted to just for tax relief. So there are many reasons huh?

I think, but really have no idea, that Indonesia and Malaysia converted much the same way that Fijians converted to Mormonism.
Missionaries with a good story to sell,
Missionaries with sweet Trade deals to be made,
Missionaries from exotic places with exotic stuff etc…
Missionaries with the power to raise a peasant up out of the mud….
LET ME IN ON SUM DAT!!! hehehe… you get the point though.
Indonesia and Malaysia are on an Arabian trade route to China. Even Vietnam had a little Muslim trade community. But Chinese never really thought much of Islam so it kind of didn’t make inroads from there. They did maintain a couple nice Mosques in Bejing for Trade purposes. But hardly any Chinese converted – Chinese were rich, had a much longer history, and where culturally well defined. Indonesian and Malay were hardly so.

Another good question may be: With 1400 year of contact with Islam, if the message is so compelling, why didn’t Chinese convert? Now ask why would Indians, who were equal to the Chinese culturally and historically convert.

What was the major difference? Perhaps the only answer is the wars?

All that aside, you know, I see many people “converting” to Scientology - - all the time in front of Town Hall – where they maintain a stand a times. Why I have no idea.


So yes there are many reasons why people convert to into Islam, out of Islam, into Baha’i out of Baha’i, into Scientology etc… which may have nothing to do with Warlords.

So,
Do we agree that in antiquity many War Generals, by necessity, maintained they and they alone had the blessing of God(s)?


My question is: Why do you suppose that today in the year 2007 so many people continue revere the Arabian General Mohammed (I’m thinking purely as a Historical figure – which is why I said General) as having been in touch with God when clearly most rational people would never do likewise with a modern day General?

Or would they?

Michael

India: The invasions by Persians and Mongols were fought against Muslim kings from India (local Pashtuns of no royal background and descendents of Arab traders) India already had Islam during the lifetime of the Prophet.

And yet India is largely Hindu, especially in the regions where there were Mughal (or Mongol) kings. So why didn't Indians adopt Islam to the same extent. WHy did some Indians adopt it in the lifetime of the Prophet but hardly any during Mughal rule? And if India did not adopt it why did Indonesia and Malaysia?

Also, in all these places was Mohammed accepted as a Prophet because he was a General?

Was he "seen" as a Military Commander? Is that how he is remembered today? As a military commander?

 

[S.A.M.]

Islam in China:

has a rich heritage in China. The religion has had a presence in the country since the Tang Dynasty when a companion of Muhammad, Sa`ad ibn Abi Waqqas, was sent as an official envoy to Emperor Gaozong in 650 CE. The Emperor drew parallels between the religion and the teachings of Confucius and ordered the establishment of the first mosque in China.[3]

A notable feature of the Muslim communities in China is the presence of female imams [4]. A form of Islamic calligraphy, the Sini, is well established in China. Hajji Noor Deen Mi Guangjiang is a famous modern calligrapher in this tradition.

The various censuses asserted that there may be up to 20 million Muslims in China.[3]

According to the 2000 census, the largest of the ten traditionally Muslim ethnic groups in China are the Hui (9.8 million in year 2000 census, or 48% of the officially tabulated number of Muslims). The other nine, in descending order of size, are Uyghurs (8.4 million, 41%), Kazakhs (1.25 million , 6.1%), Dongxiang (514 thousand, 2.5%), Kirghiz (161 thousand), Salar (105 thousand), Tajiks (41 thousand), Bonan (17 thousand), Uzbek (12 thousand), and Tatar (5 thousand). However, individual members of traditionally Muslim ethnic groups may profess other religions or none at all, while Muslim believers may also be found among traditionally non-Muslim groups (one example being the Kache, who are ethnically Tibetan). Xinjiang has the largest number of Muslims; many are also concentrated in the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region.

 

[Sepulchrave]

So whats the difference between Arabs and the Mongols?

Why are both following Muhammed?

As usual, you're full of shit, you muslim chauvinist cunt.

The mongols at the time of Genghis had a shamanistic religion. His descendants contracted the memes of the the tribes they conquered and became christian, muslim and buddhist, etc. The mongols in Mongolia still retain their original shamanism though large numbers are now being converted to protestant christianity by american missionaries.

 

[S.A.M.]

As usual, you're full of shit, you muslim chauvinist cunt.

The mongols at the time of Genghis had a shamanistic religion. His descendants contracted the memes of the the tribes they conquered and became christian, muslim and buddhist, etc. The mongols in Mongolia still retain their original shamanism though large numbers are now being converted to protestant christianity by american missionaries.

Yes I know that. I'm speaking of those who went to Arabia and conquered it.

Nice language btw, very classy and clearly reflective of the objectivity and rationality of your thought processes.

PS memes are a fantasy. But why would his descendants contract the meme of a people they overpowered?

 

[Sepulchrave]

Islam in China:

Islam is largely practiced among the turkic tribes in north-western China, who have more in common with central asians.

It was never popular among Han Chinese.