Sobering thoughts on the Pakistani convert case

[GeoffP]

In Islam, human beings are allowed to be married at the age of puberty.

Which does not correspond to the age of necessary mental maturity. In other words: it is exploitative. Adherence to this doctrine is, thus, wrongful.

This was also a practice in semitic people of the time, the Arabs and Jews.

This is irrelevant. Sexual interaction with a person of nine is shameful, and sick. Western societies do not allow this, nor do modern-day Jews do not press for this either, if they ever did. Only islam continues to try and vindicate this action - why? Could it be because the al-insan al-kamil, this "perfect man" must ever be portrayed only as perfect?

Imam Khomeini did not allow sexual intercourse with animals and infants, this is a complete lie. Because a western author wrote this and brought this accusation doe snot make it true.

Your opinion seems to be rather that if a Western author writes it, it can't be true. Besides which: you've been presented with a quote. Deal with it, or desist.

Sexual intercourse with animals is forbidden in islam and anyone caught doing such a thing is subject to punishment. There is no such narrative, you are inventing things again to back up your false claims.

Talk to the Ayatollah, not me. I imagine if the quote exists that others here might locate it.

“A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.”
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh"

Or you might follow this link from Wikipedia:

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/bouhdiba.htm
"Some sources claim that sex with animals is abhorrent, others state that while condemned, it is treated with "relative indulgence" and in a similar category to masturbation and lesbianism (Bouhdiba: Sexuality in Islam, Ch.4)."

Frankly, I don't cite in any way that this is common in islam, or that all muslims do this; I merely wish to point out the error of your words.

However, you may yet have a point: on another site, for instance, amid calls to kill those who insult islam, I found that some posters refuted the translation about bestiality in the Ayatollah's book.

Yet they also translated that:

"it is written in "Tahrir al wasile":
The book of eatables and drinkables: saying about animals, number 22,23
http://www.wilayah.org/arabi/ahkam/tahrir/index.htm
22-One of things which cause that an animal being Haram ,Although it was Hala, is that a human have sex with it and...... and because of this work(sodomizing with animal) it's meat and the meat of it's lamb which will be born after sodomizing will all be Haram and it's milk and wool and hair too.
23- If the animal which someone had sex with it is one of the eatable animals like sheep and cow and camel it should be killed (Zebh) and burned....... And if it is on of the animals which is not eatable usually and are used for riding and transportation, like horse and donkey ,it should be taken out of the city and be solved in the other city."

So...no eating a defiled animal, but it should be sold elsewhere. That is, it's too disgraceful to keep in the city, but it could be dumped on someone else. Nice.


I also found that the posters confirmed through their translations of the Ayatollah's book that:

"What the first part clearly means is that it is not allowed to perform sexual intercourse with your wife if she didn't complete nine years old, however all other pleasure such as touching with sexual desire, hugging, and crossing legs is not problem with it even with infant (less than two years old).

The word Radi3ah means still being breast fed usually less than two years old. "

I do not take pleasure in so illustrating these facts; in fact, I feel quite dirty for even having touched the material. In fact, I'm taking a break now, to avoid defiling myself with further contact with this sickness.

It is a duty of Muslims to correct wrong information on Islam and spread the message of Islam among anyone who wills to listen. Also, I feel it as my duty to reverse negative opinions of Islam and Muslims which you and your friends present to the readers of this forum.

Allah rewards each deed due to the intention and the goodness of the action.

My actions and words are indicative of my good intent: you are promulgating non-goodness, and I believe this to be an evil.

True peace and truth go with you.

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

DiamondHearts as your such a gorgeous fellow and your religion the most perfect, it would be perfectly gorgeous of you to answer the original posters question
here I'll print them again, thank you in advance.

Certain questions arise here. Is it true that Islamic law makes the conversion of a Muslim to Christianity, or any other religion, a capital offence?

Public Apostasy and Evangelizing in Muslim countries is forbidden due to the laws of Islam. Those who do not agree with Islam have the right of private apostasy which is not punishable. Also people of other religions are free to convert to any religion they choose, however Muslims are not allowed publically to convert. This undermines the Islamic propagation, hence why Islam allows these converts choice between public conversion back to Islam or if they demand to spread their views in public, execution.

The Afghani man knew the punishment and he wanted to make public his faith and was also guilty of evangelising. Christian evangelists often use food, money, and other incentives to convert local people. He was found guilty supporting and engaging in this.

Is it true the Qur'an requires his execution?

The Quran does not say anything about it, it is the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (s) where the law is found.

Is it true, as has been frequently reported, that it is illegal to preach the Christian gospel in a country under Islamic law?

You are correct, however there are many loop holes and evangelists often come in the cover of aid workers and secretly evangelize.

Is this also punishable by death?

Exile, or Execution if they refuse to leave.

Is it true the goal of the Islamic faith is to bring all the countries of the world under Islamic law?

As is the goal of all religions, Muslims want as many people to embrace Islam as possible. However, if a country or people do not want Islam, we don't have to present Islam to them, but only those who listen.

In short, is one objective of the Muslim faith purely political?

The dynamic Islamic faith is political, public, private, economical, and religious. Islam is a way of life which presents the correct ways of living to please Allah (swt).

Is it the aim of Canadian Muslims to bring such a "perfect constitution" to Canada?

No. If the majority of Canadians want to accept Islam, then we can work from there. However we only preach to those who are interested, which is quite different from Christian preachers. We are not allowed to use other incentives or false information. We have no goal of turning Canada in to a Muslim country, unless the majority of Canadians wish that and ask us to help them.

And if they succeeded, and Canada became an Islamic country, would the Christians be allowed to continue preaching the Gospel, including to Muslims?

The Christians would be allowed to preach to anyone but Muslims, because the Islamic state does not allow public apostasy from Islam. If Muslims seek to convert to another religion, they will only be punished if they make it public to encourage others to leave Islam.

If all these things are true, then would it not follow that Muslims are opposed to freedom of religion?

We are oppossed to freedom of preaching and evangelizing of religion other than Islam in Islamic majority countries. If a Muslim chooses to leave Islam in a Non-Muslim country, we are not allowed to carry out the Islamic punishment concerning this. We allow other religionists to practice freely their religion and even fund the building, repairs, and protection of their temples, churches, and shrines. This is the duty of the Islamic state, however in an Islamic state Muslims cannot convert to another religion and make this public, if they keep it private, then nothing will happen to them.

In the western world, Muslims are certainly free to preach and practise Islam. They are not arrested.

We only preach to those who come to us. We do not go out and preach our religion in public or use economic incentives to win converts. In Islam we believe it is only our duty to make aware Islam, but to change the hearts of man is left to Allah (swt). We don't convert, it is the convert who chooses Islam for himself. Non-Muslims are allowed to practice their religion completely in Islamic countries, from eating pork, doing sacraments, putting red dots on head, wearing skullcaps, drinking alcohol, etc. Pakistan allows Sikh pilgrims to perform rituals and visit in their holy shrines in Muslim Punjab. There are many examples.

If a Christian converts to their faith, the Christian is not put in jail and brought to trial.

By a Christian country do you mean the modern secular materialistic governments of North America and Europe? The Catholic church in Spain supported the killing of Moors and Jews in the Reconquista and Inquistion, and their descendants who converted to Christianity, and even still retains this position. Christianity has a bad history of this, while Muslims have been tolerant of other religions.

"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5 RSV)

Christians would certainly pray for his soul, but I know of nothing in the Christian Bible that requires his execution.

“The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas (retribution) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." (Bukhari)

The case of the apostate facing trial in Afghanistan, with the remote prospect of being sentenced to death, has brought swift reaction from the West. It is truly amusing to see the heads of European states reacting to the possible death of one man while they find it easy to aid the murder of thousands of Iraqis

This week we learnt that American marines murdered 15 members of an Iraqi family in cold blood, including a three year old child. No problem, say the leaders of Europe, but the trial of the Afghan apostate is too much for them. You can’t kill an apostate, but kill as many Muslims as you need to improve the balance sheet of the party donors! This is the source of their moral barometer, as the apostate case is opposing secular values of freedom of religion, while the occupation and murder of Iraqis is conforming to secular interests of spreading freedom and democracy!...

In Islam, society is supposed to be governed by religion; where apostasy is the secular equivalent of treason not a matter of personal choice for Muslims...

I wish someone would tell these Zionist-Christians and the Muslim moderates that: freedom of religion is not a religious notion, it is a secular notion. Can the God of any religion say to its subject, believe in me as long as you are happy, but if you are not happy then move over to the next religion? In that case the religion is clearly stating that it does not hold the ultimate truth. If a religion does not have conviction in its own values, its followers are certainly not going to have conviction either. Now what kind of religion is that?...

Apostasy is one thing, trial and execution of the apostate is another matter entirely. This can only be done by a legitimate Islamic State, the Caliphate. The defendant has to be brought and tried by an Islamic court. Clearly in the absence of the Islamic state, this is neither possible, nor permissible.

http://icssa.org/killing_apostate.htm

From time to time, deliberate actions are taken to attack Muslim sensitivities usually by desecrating the sanctities held in esteem by Muslims. Such acts of desecration are promoted in such a way that Muslims are forced to react. In the reaction, somewhere, someone does something unpleasant. Even if someone does not, Muslim groups are infiltrated and implanted people are used to cause an unpleasant incident. Then that unpleasant incident is used to vile Islam for days through headlines and “expert” interviews. An example of this is the recent cartoon fiasco.

Alternatively, the Muslim world is constantly monitored for any incident that can be exploited for the same purpose. As soon as something is noted somewhere in some far away corner of the world, it instantly becomes the most significant news all over the world, dwarfing and relegating to the background all the viciousness, violence, massacres and persecutions perpetrated on multitudes of Muslims by other religious communities. Usually in an unknown township, in a far away wilderness, in some local court, someone is prescribed a capital punishment. It suddenly becomes the fault of Islam and propagated all over the world as such. The interesting thing is that for all those cases, after all the sinister hoopla and vicious bashing of Islam, not a single person has ever been executed, mostly because the Islamic scholars or superior courts were already in the process of setting the matters right.

he most interesting thing in this respect is that the people who speak up in favour of such “poor victims” are those who are themselves swimming in the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani women and children...

We do not have to comment or express opinion on every event in the world involving Muslims just as no Christians or Jews are expected to do so;

§ Even if a wrong is actually committed by a Muslim in another part of the world, we do not need to condemn it or apologize for it just as no Jew, Christian, Sikh or Hindu is expected to apologize, condemn or comment on the crimes of other Jews, Christians, Sikhs or Hindus.

§ For all those who expect you to do so, you should politely ask them first to set an example by apologizing, condemning and actively working to stop the crimes perpetrated by their own communities...

The fact that Allaah does not force people to become Muslims does not mean that those who choose to become Muslims should not be expected to follow its rules and regulations. Those who voluntarily accept Islam must follow its teachings or stop claiming to be Muslims. This is simple and straightforward logic. People are free to join or not to join an army. But once they join, they have no choice but to strictly follow the rules and commands. If they violate those rules, they will be punished and forced to obey. People are free to join or not to join a law school or medical college, but if they decide to join they must follow the curriculum and all other regulations to qualify and practice their profession. They cannot be allowed to do whatever they want. The same way, Allaah does not want to compel anyone to become a Muslim, but if one does become a Muslim, he has no choice but to live by its rules and practices.

This freedom is so important that Allaah SWT wants people to think clearly and rationally before calling themselves Muslims or converting to Islam. As such, Islam is the only religion that abhors blind faith. It wants people to have a rational faith that makes sense to them and that their intellect is fully satisfied with. Even those born in Muslim homes must make a conscious choice when they come of age. Before coming of age, they are not accountable. But once they come of age and make a conscious choice to accept Islam as their way of life, that is when they are held accountable for their deeds.

Then, once a person has made a choice, there is no going back. Allaah wants people to take their time, think hard and not accept Islam until it makes sense to them. However, once a decision is made on the basis of a rational thought process and a person declares to be a Muslim, there is no way out. In Islam, faith is a serious matter. One does not change it as a person changes clothes. One cannot play games with it. No one is forced to become a Muslim, but once he does, he cannot go back. This is crucial considering that many enemies of Islam played games with it to discredit it.

http://icssa.org/apostasy_apology.html

Do Muslims perhaps regard this reaction as a weakness in Christianity?

Majority of Christians do not practice their religion. They engage in usury, drunkenness, and materialism which is forbidden in their religion.

Peace.

 

[superluminal]

Do any religious people ever stop to consider the complexity of the shit they believe in? And the "justice" of what they believe in? Just take this: In Islam it's a death sentence to change your mind. Give me a fucking break. I am really convinced that religiosos are really quite stupid. And it's willful stupidity too. The worst kind. They have the power to look at it and say "this makes no fucking sense" and move on, yet their childish fear of death and punishment forces them to lie to themselves. Pitifully stupid.

 

[GeoffP]

I was going to respond to Diamond, then realized there was nothing better I could say for my case than to let her words stand as they are. Thankyou, Diamond.

I would like to draw special attention to this, however:

In Islam, society is supposed to be governed by religion; where apostasy is the secular equivalent of treason not a matter of personal choice for Muslims...

I wish someone would tell these Zionist-Christians and the Muslim moderates that: freedom of religion is not a religious notion, it is a secular notion.

There we have it people: something Diamond has never, ever denied. Leave islam, and die.

Geoff

 

[Godless]

For the record, I think that all religions are STUPID.

Islamic Stupidity: A Bottomless Pit

click google

A Week That Revealed Islam's Terrorist Nature

Surely Diamonshithead, you got lots to be proud off :bugeye:

Godless

 

[superluminal]

When will people realize that the bible and the quran are manuals written and edited by dictatorial zealots who only want to control them like sheep?

Weak minded fools.

 

[GeoffP]

I don't mind any religion much, so long as they disavow the nasty bits. If Diamond would only bow and disavow, then I could let her be.

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

In a purely Islamic State, religionists have the right to practice their religions, but not the right to spread their religions.

There is not an absolute right to spread religion in the Islamic Khalifah, only to practise their religion and engage in rituals, etc.

Islam also allows religious courts for religious minorities which are allowed by the Islamic Khalifah and run by the clergy of particular religious groups, under supervision from the Islamic state.

Non-Muslims are exempt from military service. Muslims are required however. The jizya is a law which is put on Non-Muslims to exempt them from military service, give them protected status (dhimmi), and allow for the construction and reconstruction of their holy sites and temples. Non-Muslims are exempt from Muslim Zakat (yearly tax). Jizya and Zakat have historically been similar in monetary value.

Non-Muslims have the same status in all spheres of life, except they are not allowed to propagate their religion among Muslims and are exempt from Muslim laws like the ban on alcohol, pork, etc.

Islam is the only religion which guarantees protection and the building of other religion's holy shrines, temples, and churches.

Islam does not allow freedom to propagate religion in an Islamic State, but provides the right of freedom to practice religion without harm.

Peace.

 

[Xerxes]

DiamondHearts,

What happens to someone if they leave Islam and join a non-islamic religion? What happens if they become athiest?

 

[Godless]

They get killed. If any one of these shithead muslim finds out.

 

[mustafhakofi]

xerxes and godless:
unless of course if you live in england, my brothers can only shun me and my father and mother do tolerate me, but I am under sentence of death anywhere else in the islamic world.
so I keep a discrete distance from my family and ex-friends and the mosque.
one day hopefully religion, will be gone from the human mind set. but it will be a long time coming.

 

[superluminal]

In a purely Islamic State, religionists have the right to practice their religions, but not the right to spread their religions.

...

The jizya is a law which is put on Non-Muslims to exempt them from military service, give them protected status (dhimmi), and allow for the construction and reconstruction of their holy sites and temples.

Non-Muslims have the same status in all spheres of life, except they are not allowed to propagate their religion among Muslims...

That's all very nice. So, in an islamic state, I can build a giant church, with inscriptions, icons, and whatnot, proclaiming the truth of my religion, and the islamic rulers are ok with that? That's not somehow propagating my religion?

But I can't tell a group of muslims on a street corner how great christianity is lest I be executed? Is this correct?

 

[GeoffP]

In a purely Islamic State, religionists have the right to practice their religions, but not the right to spread their religions.

There is not an absolute right to spread religion in the Islamic Khalifah, only to practise their religion and engage in rituals, etc.

I see that Diamond chooses not to disavow the aforesaid "nastier bits".

Islam also allows religious courts for religious minorities which are allowed by the Islamic Khalifah and run by the clergy of particular religious groups, under supervision from the Islamic state.

And so, not free.

Non-Muslims are exempt from military service.

And this explains the forced conscription of thousand on thousand of sons of Christian and Jewish families in Turkey for islamic crusade (jihad)? They didn't seem too exempt then.

The jizya is a law which is put on Non-Muslims to exempt them from military service, give them protected status (dhimmi), and allow for the construction and reconstruction of their holy sites and temples. Non-Muslims are exempt from Muslim Zakat (yearly tax). Jizya and Zakat have historically been similar in monetary value.

This statement actually should read:

"The jizya is a law which is put on Non-Muslims to free funds for war against neighbouring non-muslim states. The construction and reconstruction of their holy sites and temples is not allowed in an islamic state.

Non-Muslims and not infrequently muslims are exempt from Muslim Zakat (yearly tax).

Jizya has historically been twice that of zakaat."

Non-Muslims have the same status in all spheres of life, except they are not allowed to propagate their religion among Muslims and are exempt from Muslim laws like the ban on alcohol, pork, etc.

And the following:

"We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.

We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.

We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.

We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.

We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.

We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.

We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.

We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.

We shall not sell fermented drinks.

We shall clip the fronts of our heads.

We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists

We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.

We shall not take slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.

We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.

(When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")

We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

Umar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact." "

Islam is the only religion which guarantees protection and the building of other religion's holy shrines, temples, and churches.

This conflicts with the above.

And how's this for a convolution:

Islam does not allow freedom to propagate religion in an Islamic State, but provides the right of freedom to practice religion without harm.

"does not allow freedom to propagate religion" - anyone care to take a stab...er, have a hack...I mean, explain that statement?

Geoff

 

[GeoffP]

Aside from the usual accusations against non-muslims, Diamond, did you have any comment to the above comments by the Ayatollah? I got them from an islamic web site.

So you can do anything you want sexually with an infant as young as breastfeeding age, so long as there is no penetration.

How...legally-minded.

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

Aside from the usual accusations against non-muslims, Diamond, did you have any comment to the above comments by the Ayatollah? I got them from an islamic web site.

So you can do anything you want sexually with an infant as young as breastfeeding age, so long as there is no penetration.

How...legally-minded.

Geoff

I have never insulted Non-Muslims and you will be hard pressed to find any quote of me insulting Christianity or Judaism. I have said many times I respect other religions, and I consider Christianity and Judaism divine religions who worship the same God as us.

Yet your insults against Islam and Muslims have been deceptive and have often been unfounded.

Imam Khomeini never said this, it is a lie.

What islamic website is that?

xerxes and godless:
unless of course if you live in england, my brothers can only shun me and my father and mother do tolerate me, but I am under sentence of death anywhere else in the islamic world.
so I keep a discrete distance from my family and ex-friends and the mosque.
one day hopefully religion, will be gone from the human mind set. but it will be a long time coming.

What country are you on a sentence of death from? Aren't you Turkish? Turkey is a very secular country and they don't carry out such Islamic laws.

The execution sentence can only be carried out in an Islamic state which has a muslim majority, that is why it is illegal in Islam to punish you in a Non-Muslim country like England.

Peace.

 

[GeoffP]

I have never insulted Non-Muslims and you will be hard pressed to find any quote of me insulting Christianity or Judaism. I have said many times I respect other religions, and I consider Christianity and Judaism divine religions who worship the same God as us.

Excepting of course, that if someone switched faith to one of those religions that you say you respect so much, who you say worship that very same god, you would have to have them killed. No matter their reason for leaving - say, perhaps, if they were somehow offended or appalled at the fact that islam would demand their death - they must die.

/sarc
That certainly sounds like respect to me.
/sarc off

Yet your insults against Islam and Muslims have been deceptive and have often been unfounded.

And here you go on again about me "insulting" islam. What would you do, Diamond, to someone who insulted islam? What punishment do they deserve?

It is not a question of insulting islam, lest by that you mean evaluating it objectively and deciding - of my own free will - that it is flawed. I am free to make the same assumptions about Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Gnostics, Secularists, Zoroastrians, Hindus and Buddhists, and have done so, and yet none of them - or very, very few - would kill me for it, and none would be justified in doing so.

And where have my comments about islam been deceptive? When have they been unfounded? I have merely repeated what I hear about islam - from the best of sources, the Quran, the hadiths, the biography and the practictioners, including yourself - back at you in a less flattering light; a light, say, that someone who could potentially be oppressed by it might see it in. It is not my fault that you provide such a vile medium, and I cannot apologize for that.

Imam Khomeini never said this, it is a lie.

Regrets, he did indeed say it. The comments of the readers of the site amply demonstrate that. If you wish to accuse me of lying, then for a change perhaps you might try to have some fact on your side.

What islamic website is that?

Google for it yourself. I have no want to give anyone tools with which to try to enact a fatwa against me. I will say that it is a Shi'ite site - the sect to which the Ayatollah belongs, no?

What country are you on a sentence of death from? Aren't you Turkish? Turkey is a very secular country and they don't carry out such Islamic laws.

And his family? Friends? What might they do?

The execution sentence can only be carried out in an Islamic state which has a muslim majority, that is why it is illegal in Islam to punish you in a Non-Muslim country like England.

I love that bit: "it would be illegal to punish you there". So nice to know that Diamond's only compunction about killing mustafa is his locality at present. I might also add that apostates have indeed been killed for their apostacy in England, and that the harassment and intimidation of apostates there is ongoing. I further add that I know three girls who left islam, and that I would oppose their murder for the mere act of their own religious and moral freedom. The thought that people like Diamond would hurt - nay, kill - such wonderful women and great people fills me with the lowest of utter disgust.

If the object of this debate was to provide me with reasons not to become muslim, then I think it has done so.

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

Excepting of course, that if someone switched faith to one of those religions that you say you respect so much, who you say worship that very same god, you would have to have them killed. No matter their reason for leaving - say, perhaps, if they were somehow offended or appalled at the fact that islam would demand their death - they must die.

/sarc
That certainly sounds like respect to me.
/sarc off

This is the law of the Islamic state and I agree fully with its implication because it prevents destruction of the Islamic state and undemrining Islamic propagation inside the state. What is the point of an Islamic state if it adopts policies which will defeat the very purpose of its existence?

Ofcourse, zionists (by the way, you dont have to be jewish or israeli to be a zionist) like yourself who propagate every day against Muslims in Palestine, and invent lies of the worst kind against the holy scholars and Prophet (s) of Islam would enjoy every opportunity to demean Islam. Almost all your posts in the religion forum are meant to defile Islam's image and promote hostility toward Muslims.

And here you go on again about me "insulting" islam. What would you do, Diamond, to someone who insulted islam? What punishment do they deserve?

Those who insult Islam will get the rightful punishment from Allah swt in this life and the next. I need only prove you to be a liar, the rest Allah swt will do.

I have no problem with those who disagree with Islam, but my problem is with people like who who invent falsehoods against Islam.

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (s) once said, 'Those who speak truth, their words are better than their silence, however those who speak lies, their silence is better than their words.'

You would do well to heed this advice.

It is not a question of insulting islam, lest by that you mean evaluating it objectively and deciding - of my own free will - that it is flawed. I am free to make the same assumptions about Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Gnostics, Secularists, Zoroastrians, Hindus and Buddhists, and have done so, and yet none of them - or very, very few - would kill me for it, and none would be justified in doing so.

Your problem is you invent lies and false charges to make your points. You also have a bad habit of twisting of words of others, and adding your own meanings to their words. This has been proven many times in this forum.

I never said I would kill you, this is a perfect example of attributing things to me which I never said. This is deceptive and immoral.

And where have my comments about islam been deceptive? When have they been unfounded? I have merely repeated what I hear about islam - from the best of sources, the Quran, the hadiths, the biography and the practictioners, including yourself - back at you in a less flattering light; a light, say, that someone who could potentially be oppressed by it might see it in. It is not my fault that you provide such a vile medium, and I cannot apologize for that.

Examples of your lies:

You have said Muslims want to enslave the rest of humanity.
You have said Imam Khomeini permitted sex with infants and animals. (Allah swt forbid)
You have claimed that jizya is twice of zakat value.
You have said zakat has not been consistently practiced by Muslims.
You have claimed that the wife of the Holy Prophet (s) poisoned him. (Allah swt forbid)
You claimed that blacks are treated differently in Islam, and have implied Islam teaches racism.
etc etc etc ....

Regrets, he did indeed say it. The comments of the readers of the site amply demonstrate that. If you wish to accuse me of lying, then for a change perhaps you might try to have some fact on your side.

Because idiots will believe anything which is written, even if it false, this proves it is true?

Google for it yourself. I have no want to give anyone tools with which to try to enact a fatwa against me. I will say that it is a Shi'ite site - the sect to which the Ayatollah belongs, no?

You have made this claim, provide proof. I shouldn't have to do your work for you.

I do not have the authority to issue fatwa, I am not an Islamic scholar. Fatwa is an Islamic order, its not an edict for punishment.

And his family? Friends? What might they do?

He said he has a sentence of death in his country. I am not referring to his family.

I love that bit: "it would be illegal to punish you there". So nice to know that Diamond's only compunction about killing mustafa is his locality at present. I might also add that apostates have indeed been killed for their apostacy in England, and that the harassment and intimidation of apostates there is ongoing.

Give me a few examples of those people killed in England for apostasy. Please provide articles, and their names.

I further add that I know three girls who left islam, and that I would oppose their murder for the mere act of their own religious and moral freedom. The thought that people like Diamond would hurt - nay, kill - such wonderful women and great people fills me with the lowest of utter disgust.

Yet you support killing of Muslim civilians by Israeli army and support genocide against Palestinian people. Geoff, defender of apostates, please show us your hypocrisy once more.

If the object of this debate was to provide me with reasons not to become muslim, then I think it has done so.

Geoff

Whether you embrace Islam or not is of no concern to me.

Considering your logic so far, I would not be suprised that if clear proof of the validity of Islam come to you, you would not embrace due to your lies and false image you have built of Islam in your mind.

If Islam shall ever enter your heart, you must shed your lies and false claims, otherwise truth will be far from your grasp.

It is not me who changes the hearts of men, it is the one true Allah swt.

Peace.

 

[Xerxes]

The unHoly Prophet Muhammad (s) once said, 'Those who speak truth, their words are better than their silence, however those who speak lies, their silence is better than their words.'

Mohammed would do well to take his own advice. After all, what he claims as the truth is only a subjective opinion of it.

Tell me, if you lived in an Islamic state and your son converted to.. let us say voodoo, would you have him killed? Disown him? Or go accepting him as your son. Please answer honestly, DiamondHearts.

 

[DiamondHearts]

I would bring him to the Islamic court and if he did not agree with rejecting his new faith, I would allow the Islamic court to dealwith him and perform his execution in a swift and unpainful manner.

I would do the same if my son because a Zionist and supported genocide of native Palestinians.

Peace.

 

[Xerxes]

That's disgusting, I hope you are sterile.