Sobering thoughts on the Pakistani convert case

GeoffP

Caput gerat lupinum
Valued Senior Member
Found this interesting article in a Canadian newspaper, of all places. Mr. Byfield has some interesting questions. Will the muslim posters here have some interesting answers?

Geoff

Dying to know about Islamic reality

By Ted Byfield

Why, one wonders, are the Canadian media not seeking out Muslim spokespeople in Canada for their comment on the sad case of Abdul Rahman.

Surely here is a situation that offers a splendid opportunity for Muslim organizations to explain the workings of their religion and put at ease the growing concerns of many Canadians about some aspects of their faith.

Rahman is an Afghan citizen who found work for a Christian aid agency in Pakistan and converted to Christianity 14 years ago.

In response, his family back in Pakistan took custody of his two daughters.

Rahman has now returned to his native country and applied for the custody of his children.

His family reported him to Afghan authorities who have arrested him on a charge of converting to Christianity, an offence under Islamic "Sharia" law.

If convicted, he faces a possible death sentence.


The judge presiding over his case in Khabul has said Rahman can be acquitted if he renounces his Christian convictions and returns to Islam.

So far, Rahman has refused to do this.

The judge is baffled by the reaction to Rahman's arrest.

"In this country, we have a perfect constitution," he said in an interview with a Canadian journalist.

"It is Islamic law and it is illegal to be a Christian and should be punished. In your country two women can marry. I think that is very strange."

Certain questions arise here. Is it true that Islamic law makes the conversion of a Muslim to Christianity, or any other religion, a capital offence?

Is it true the Qur'an requires his execution?

Is it true, as has been frequently reported, that it is illegal to preach the Christian gospel in a country under Islamic law?

Is this also punishable by death?

Is it true the goal of the Islamic faith is to bring all the countries of the world under Islamic law?

In short, is one objective of the Muslim faith purely political?

Is it the aim of Canadian Muslims to bring such a "perfect constitution" to Canada?

And if they succeeded, and Canada became an Islamic country, would the Christians be allowed to continue preaching the Gospel, including to Muslims?

If all these things are true, then would it not follow that Muslims are opposed to freedom of religion?

Obviously, if you cannot preach a religion, then this is a central prohibition against its practice.

How therefore can a Muslim contend that he supports the Charter of Rights and Freedom?

In the western world, Muslims are certainly free to preach and practise Islam. They are not arrested.

If a Christian converts to their faith, the Christian is not put in jail and brought to trial.

Christians would certainly pray for his soul, but I know of nothing in the Christian Bible that requires his execution.

Do Muslims perhaps regard this reaction as a weakness in Christianity?

How do Muslims reconcile these Qura'nic requirements with their portrayal of Islam as a religion devoted to peace, goodwill and mutual understanding?

Or, in the view of their faith, is such benevolence confined to relations among Muslims, not to their dealings with "infidels."

And if this proscription exists, ought they not to include it in their portrayal of their faith.

The rule would be: "Love your neighbour as yourself, provided he is a Muslim."

I know this column sounds nasty and aggressive, but I don't mean it to be.

I know Muslims whose devotion to God is certainly as heartfelt as that of most Christians I know.

But if I talk to them about faith in Jesus Christ, about His death, and the Christian belief that He died to save all men, Muslims included, from the inevitable consequences of human behaviour, are they secretly saying to themselves: "When Islam prevails in this country, he would not dare say this to me, because he could be put to death for doing it."

Thoughts such as this tend to inhibit free and open discussion.

Surely, therefore, the people who speak for Islam should confront the implications of the Rahman affair.

So should the non-Muslim academics who urge us to study and learn from Islam.

What might we learn here?

These are questions that need to be asked.

And answered.
 
It is good that this case has received publicity in the worlds press. Many former muslims who have come to the truth of Jesus have been murdered for it around the muslim world, many by there own relatives. The evil of islam is clear for all to see, a vicious religion founded by the sword and terror is maintained by fear and violence.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
It is good that this case has received publicity in the worlds press. Many former muslims who have come to the truth of Jesus have been murdered for it around the muslim world, many by there own relatives. The evil of islam is clear for all to see, a vicious religion founded by the sword and terror is maintained by fear and violence.

Why don't you go back to keeping slaves and murdering children if the swear at you? Pots and kettles with these dumb Christians...
 
Adstar said:
It is good that this case has received publicity in the worlds press. Many former muslims who have come to the truth of Jesus have been murdered for it around the muslim world, many by there own relatives. The evil of islam is clear for all to see, a vicious religion founded by the sword and terror is maintained by fear and violence.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Islam and Christianity are very similar faiths, as is judaism, the fundamental parts are the same, the differences are subtle
 
thedevilsreject said:
Islam and Christianity are very similar faiths, as is judaism, the fundamental parts are the same, the differences are subtle
DAMN RIGHT!!!...all from same patriarchal root. all causing all the wars and misery tha's been going on for generation after generation after generation. indoctrinating their propganda into te recptivemindsof children

but...what doesn't USUALLY get noticed is th secular world's part in this patriarchal root system. i am saying that all tat Unconsciously is still guidin its system, hence we are seeing all frms of oppression, wars cntinuing continuing, and even now, Nature ITSELF is under threat!!!
 
thedevilsreject said:
Islam and Christianity are very similar faiths, as is judaism, the fundamental parts are the same, the differences are subtle

Wrong. fundametalist Christianity is pacifist. fundamentalist Islam is Jihad war and terror.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
Wrong. fundametalist Christianity is pacifist. fundamentalist Islam is Jihad war and terror.

Well, far be it from me to agree with an evangelist, but Adstar has a point. At the core of it, Jesus isn't supposed to have demanded anyone be rubbed out. So, ultimately, it is pacifist. Now, "fundamentalist Christianity" has a somewhat different ring nowadays, though. I don't know if Pat Robertson wants to kill gay people, but he's generally unimpressed with them at the moment. (This from a guy who begs money off people on TV.) If he did, you would be justified in arguing that it wasn't Christian. On the other hand, Mohammed did order the deaths of people, and did command rape ("taking things of the right hand") and was an extreme supremacist about his religion and all the rest. That's a pretty strong contrast. Jesus warned people who wouldn't follow him that they might be sorry for it, but that's a hell of a lot better than demanding money, conversion, or death. I'll take a good talking-to over a tulwar in the head any day.

Maybe it would be better to say that fundamental Christianity is peaceful; fundamental islam isn't.

Geoff
 
GeoffP said:
On the other hand, Mohammed did order the deaths of people, and did command rape ("taking things of the right hand") and was an extreme supremacist about his religion and all the rest.

The Holy Prophet (s) did order the execution of the people who plotted to kill him, his followers and he also ordered the execution of those leaders who broke peace treaties.

The Prophet (s) did not command rape, this is completely wrong and deceptive belief. Infact, the Prophet (s) commanded execution for those who engaged in fornication, adultery, and rape.

In every aspect Islam is the most just religion.

Peace.
 
The word fundamentalist is just a tag that people infuse with their own perceptions. So many people have different interpretations on this word that its use has become useless.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
DiamondHearts said:
The Holy Prophet (s) did order the execution of the people who plotted to kill him, his followers and he also ordered the execution of those leaders who broke peace treaties.

And also for all who left islam: "If a man leaves islam, kill him" (Mohammed, narrated al-Buhkari). Islam today is concerned with murdering a man who had the temerity to leave islam. Nothing, whatsoever, appears to have changed. Mohammed also ordered the execution of all the menfolk of an entire tribe, and took their women as slaves.

This is what is termed: evil.

The Prophet (s) did not command rape, this is completely wrong and deceptive belief. Infact, the Prophet (s) commanded execution for those who engaged in fornication, adultery, and rape.

So, then, "going into" (having intercourse with) those women "taken by the right hand" (female slaves) "as ye will" (at the discretion only of the male captor, the will of the female captives not being cited) translates into free choice? Beating disobedient women (Q 4:34) is equality?

George Orwell wrote comprehensively of this mindset. He was specifically referring to extremist socialism, but how appropriate these verses seem now, in our discussion of islam:

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is strength

In every aspect Islam is the most just religion.

The very most. For is not the murder of homosexuals and apostates justice? Is not the solving of marital disputes by force the fairest way? Do not women deserve fewer rights than men? Are not other religions meant to be oppressed, inferior? I add to Orwell's trinity of doublethink:

Ignorance is wisdom.

Geoff
 
DiamondHearts said:
In every aspect Islam is the most just religion.

Let's even expand on this a little, using Christianity and secularism/agnosticism as the contrasts since I am most familiar with them:

...

Christianity preaches forgiveness, and divine punishment/reward.

Islam cries for corporeal and divine punishment and retribution.

Secularism leaves all to mind their own salvation, without demanding anything.

...

How then is islam the fairest of all, my pretty? You say it often, but prove it never.

Geoff
 
Your quotes of the Quran are incomplete and refer to different subjects. Why not try quoting verses instead of mere phrases?

Also, the people who warred with the Medanis were killed in battle, and some of the prisoners were ordered dead. And there are entire history books written on this subject. The survivors, and women (those who did not war, but supported war) were given choices, to leave in exile or live in the state as a captive. The captives were given in marriage to those who agreed to marry them, this was a trust which was agreed upon by the women.

Islam is indeed most just, and the Prophet Muhammad (s) often forgave his enemies, however some of the tribes' leaders (especially those who continuously had attacked Muslims and killed Muslim traders) were executed.

In Islam, there is room for forgiveness, however there is no room for forgiveness for fornication, adultery, and rape.

In the Bible itself, there are many places were such punishments are prescribed for such actions. Why it is even in the ten commandments.

To oversimplify Islam as punishment is a major fallacy, especially to base it on just the laws for execution.

Why not look at the laws of Islam surrounding lying, cheating, stealing, and other acts? There is room for forgiveness in all these actions.

Islam does not agree with homosexuality, pedophilia, or any sexual perversion.

Public apostates are exiled or executed in an Islamic state, however apostates who do not preach their views or make their views public to inspire others to disbelief are not subjected to this punishment.

Islam is one of the only religions in the world which allows a women the right to have a divorce on her own. Islam allows wives to have private funds and savings and allows women to work. Muslim husbands are required to spend all their money on the family and have no private savings for their own selves. In Islamic law, a husband is over a wife, however a child is under a mother. In Islam, the Prophet Muhammad (s) said 'Paradise is under the feet of your Mother.' Servitude and dutifulness to parents is an obligation to a Muslim, even if his parents are Not Muslim.

This is how Islam shows its justice, through its laws and organization for a perfect ideal society based on the belief in Allah (swt) and a model in the Holy Prophet (s).

Islam is the natural way and thus Islam incorporates laws of science, nature, physics, time, and truth. Everyone is born in the state of a Muslim and thus all children who perish under the age of puberty are destined for Paradise. In Islam, no one bears the sins of anyone else. All the sins of a person are his own sins. No one goes to Paradise for the blood of someone else, but their own blood.

Islam teaches absolute belief and servitude to Allah (swt), the one and only Creator. Allah (swt) is All Knowing and Perfect. Allah (swt) has no flaws, and has created the universe according to His own will. The course of the past, present, and future is all known to Allah (swt). When Allah (swt) creates, He says 'Be' and it is. Allah (swt) does not need to sacrifice anyone to save people from Hell, and can do this without the help of anyone. Allah (swt) does not sleep or eat or drink, because He does not need to. Such a thing is only reserved for His creations which rely solely on Him for sustenance. Allah (swt) is above creation and is the Supreme Almighty. Whether we like it or not, we are in total relience of Allah (swt). Allah (swt) allows us to live a life where we make choices in our lives as a test of our character, however Allah (swt) knows the decisions we will make, and knows every thought we made, are making, and will make in the future. Allah (swt) knows everything at all times and is not subject to His creations of time and space.

Whether you believe in Allah (swt) or not does not matter. If all creation rejected Him, this would not lessen Him, and if all creation accepted Him, this would raise Him. Allah is the Most High and the Everlasting. He is your Creator, Cherisher, and Sustainer. In His hands alone is life and death, and the events of the world are all part of His plan. Allah (swt)'s plan will be fulfilled, and no one can stop Him.

Peace.
 
typo

If all creation rejected Him, this would not lessen Him, and if all creation accepted Him, this would not raise Him.
 
DiamondHearts,

How can anything be perfect if you have nothing 'perfect' to compare it to? I have more respect for religions that admit their flaws instead of trying convince everyone else that is they who are flawed..
 
This is the reason why human beings cannot understand Allah (swt) fully. This also the reason why we caqnnot imagine the perfect form of Allah (swt). Allah (swt)'s greatness is so vast, it is beyond the understanding of human beings. However Allah (swt) gives His noble virtues in the Quran for us to comprehend a little of His greatness.

Peace.
 
DiamondHearts said:
Also, the people who warred with the Medanis were killed in battle, and some of the prisoners were ordered dead. And there are entire history books written on this subject. The survivors, and women (those who did not war, but supported war) were given choices, to leave in exile or live in the state as a captive. The captives were given in marriage to those who agreed to marry them, this was a trust which was agreed upon by the women.

Because their husbands and sons had been killed, and they had no way of supporting themselves.

Nice.

Islam is indeed most just, and the Prophet Muhammad (s) often forgave his enemies

Tell me, did he forgive women poets who wrote uncomplimentary things about him?

I promise you, two goats will not butt their heads together over your answer.

In Islam, there is room for forgiveness, however there is no room for forgiveness for fornication, adultery, and rape.

But the Quran does permit the taking of slave women (those "taken by the right hand") "as ye will". It doesn't say anything about their will. Except, perhaps, to chastise and beat them if they are disobedient (Q 4:34).

You'll also have to excuse us if Western society sticks to the principle that it's not nice to execute people, regardless of the OT. Remember the woman who was going to be stoned to death whom Jesus saved? Yeah, I thought you might have forgotten about her. Are you so pure that you should throw stones, Diamond?

To oversimplify Islam as punishment is a major fallacy, especially to base it on just the laws for execution.

Why not look at the laws of Islam surrounding lying, cheating, stealing, and other acts? There is room for forgiveness in all these actions.

Islam does not agree with homosexuality, pedophilia, or any sexual perversion.

Not entirely true: while islam would put homosexuals to death, Mohammed consumated his marriage to Ayesha when she was nine years old. Moreover, the Ayatollah recently re-affirmed this concept, which also has strict and firm belief among religious conservatives. I seem to recall that he also reaffirmed some old law about the appropriate selling of a sheep with which someone had had intercourse - that you couldn't sell it to in your own town, but that it was all right for you to sell it in another town. Or maybe it was a donkey.

Honesty is good for the soul, eh?

Public apostates are exiled or executed in an Islamic state, however apostates who do not preach their views or make their views public to inspire others to disbelief are not subjected to this punishment.

Partially correct. Public apostates are indeed executed, but so are "private" apostates who are found out. This is not uncommon in Iran, and certainly not in Saudi Arabia.

Islam is one of the only religions in the world which allows a women the right to have a divorce on her own.

A meaningless generalization. It is also the only religion in the world that allows male divorce essentially at will.

Islam allows wives to have private funds and savings and allows women to work.

Other religions certainly allow these things, but islam actually has a very dim view of working women.

Muslim husbands are required to spend all their money on the family and have no private savings for their own selves. In Islamic law, a husband is over a wife, however a child is under a mother.

Why does any adult in a family require anyone else to be "over" them? Can there not be equality and partnership? Your position gives women the rights of overglorified children, at best.

Servitude and dutifulness to parents is an obligation to a Muslim, even if his parents are Not Muslim.

Unless they convert from islam, in which case they must be dutifully reported to the authorities and killed, apparently.

This is how Islam shows its justice, through its laws and organization for a perfect ideal society based on the belief in Allah (swt) and a model in the Holy Prophet (s).

If this is the best islam can do, it is not perfect, then.

Islam is the natural way and thus Islam incorporates laws of science, nature, physics, time, and truth. Everyone is born in the state of a Muslim and thus all children who perish under the age of puberty are destined for Paradise.

Ah, you're referring to the old "no baptism=damnation" thing. I should probably tell you that no one really subscribes to that view any longer. It's not terribly Christian, when you think about it, besides being as illogical as flying camels. Islam certainly isn't the natural way; if no one ever became muslim again, no one would ever have heard of your "natural way".

In Islam, no one bears the sins of anyone else. All the sins of a person are his own sins. No one goes to Paradise for the blood of someone else, but their own blood.

Unless a woman dishonours her family, apparently. Then it seems only her blood can wash away the family's sins.

Allah does not need to sacrifice anyone to save people from Hell, and can do this without the help of anyone.

Except, of course, Mohammed, without whom we'd curiously never have heard of this Allah.

Whether you believe in Allah (swt) or not does not matter. If all creation rejected Him, this would not lessen Him, and if all creation accepted Him, this would raise Him.

If it does not matter, then why preach islam to us here? What difference does it make to him - or you?

Geoff
 
Not entirely true: while islam would put homosexuals to death, Mohammed consumated his marriage to Ayesha when she was nine years old. Moreover, the Ayatollah recently re-affirmed this concept, which also has strict and firm belief among religious conservatives. I seem to recall that he also reaffirmed some old law about the appropriate selling of a sheep with which someone had had intercourse - that you couldn't sell it to in your own town, but that it was all right for you to sell it in another town. Or maybe it was a donkey.

Honesty is good for the soul, eh?

In Islam, human beings are allowed to be married at the age of puberty. This was also a practice in semitic people of the time, the Arabs and Jews. We already went over this. Imam Khomeini did not allow sexual intercourse with animals and infants, this is a complete lie. Because a western author wrote this and brought this accusation doe snot make it true.

Sexual intercourse with animals is forbidden in islam and anyone caught doing such a thing is subject to punishment. There is no such narrative, you are inventing things again to back up your false claims. Are lies the only ways to you can hold up your lies? Anything built on an unsolid foundation will crumble in time, so will your anti-islamic views in the eyes of others.

Unless a woman dishonours her family, apparently. Then it seems only her blood can wash away the family's sins.

Islam does not allow this practice. It might be practiced by some Muslims, however it is wrong and forbidden in Islam. Every burden bearer will only bear the burdens of his actions and belief.

If it does not matter, then why preach islam to us here? What difference does it make to him - or you?

It is a duty of Muslims to correct wrong information on Islam and spread the message of Islam among anyone who wills to listen. Also, I feel it as my duty to reverse negative opinions of Islam and Muslims which you and your friends present to the readers of this forum.

Allah (swt) rewards each deed due to the intention and the goodness of the action.

Peace.
 
DiamondHearts as your such a gorgeous fellow and your religion the most perfect, it would be perfectly gorgeous of you to answer the original posters question
here I'll print them again, thank you in advance.

Certain questions arise here. Is it true that Islamic law makes the conversion of a Muslim to Christianity, or any other religion, a capital offence?

Is it true the Qur'an requires his execution?

Is it true, as has been frequently reported, that it is illegal to preach the Christian gospel in a country under Islamic law?

Is this also punishable by death?

Is it true the goal of the Islamic faith is to bring all the countries of the world under Islamic law?

In short, is one objective of the Muslim faith purely political?

Is it the aim of Canadian Muslims to bring such a "perfect constitution" to Canada?

And if they succeeded, and Canada became an Islamic country, would the Christians be allowed to continue preaching the Gospel, including to Muslims?

If all these things are true, then would it not follow that Muslims are opposed to freedom of religion?


In the western world, Muslims are certainly free to preach and practise Islam. They are not arrested.

If a Christian converts to their faith, the Christian is not put in jail and brought to trial.

Christians would certainly pray for his soul, but I know of nothing in the Christian Bible that requires his execution.

Do Muslims perhaps regard this reaction as a weakness in Christianity?
 
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