So says the pastor's daughter

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
The pastor's daughter fires back ... at churchgoers:

1. When you see us walk into church late and give us the evil eye and say, “So nice of you to join us.” we really want to punch you in the face. First of all, Saturday night and Sunday morning are the most chaotic time in our home, and maybe we were at the store getting the doughnuts you are gonna stuff your face with later, or YOUR birthday present my parents forgot about. It is also possible that we are incredibly hung over and had to wash the (cough) residue off from the night before, but don’t assume the worst.

2. When you see us looking around aimlessly during service and possibly texting do not assume we are just being a rebellious hellion. Think of it this way, the man speaking is my father. I hear his sermons all day everyday and most likely proofread his notes the night before, and even helped write them. When you hear your parents rant and rave all your life eventually they all end up sounding like gibberish, despite the power of the message. So remember you get to go home during the week, we never get to not hear it. Also, when you see me texting check and see if my mom has her phone out also.

3. The power of the front row is that nobody can see your face or what you are doing. We do not sit there because we think we are special. Seriously, if its that big of an effing deal you sit in the front row too stupid. Also, while in the front row we cant see your scorning eye, and we like it that way.

4. Yes, we do get special treatment with certain things. Consider the sacrifices before you let that BS roll off your tongue. When you see us walk up to the t shirt sales table and just grab one and walk away without paying, think about the days when we sat at home sick with no parents because they were at your house bringing you soup and holding your hair when you were barfing. So, yes thank you for my t shirt I really appreciate it. You have no idea the rules and regulations we have to follow that you or your children do not have to abide by. Imagine if your parents income was based on your behavior, or for that matter imagine if your children’s good behavior decided the level of your success. When I say, “you have no idea” I mean you have no idea. next time you feel the burning words “They just get to do that because they are the pastors children,” just swallow that fiery statement and eat a tums, cause we hold our words back more than you could ever know.


(Sims)

Wow. That blistering tirade just gets more and more sinister as you go.

True, one can revel in the discord within the corpus Christi, but more interesting questions beg our attention. In years past, I have made the observation that Christians need to clean up their own houses, first, before demanding that everyone else ... um ... well, you know, whatever. Stop having sex with people of the same gender, stop listening to evil rap and heavy metal, stop watching crappy television—but not because it's crappy; rather, God will be angry if you see Dennis Franz's ass. At any rate, if I haven't said it lately, it's because those religious people just don't care. I still believe it, but I'm through wasting those words on hateful flesh wrapped around empty souls.

Most people would make a snotty argument about it, though: Why should we be moral if you're not? But the problem is one of function.

Look, the rest of us hear the message; we cannot help but hear it with how many evangelical networks, the religious favoritism page in many newspapers, the glut of ugly churches fouling up our cities every few blocks, the political action groups, the bookstores—really, what is the point of celebrating that you are a best-seller in a field restricted to make sure that only you and a few other people can have best-sellers?—and even the obnoxious billboard in Seattle that once read, "Liberty is not the freedom to do what you want, but the freedom to do what God tells you to."

The problem is this: We keep hearing about morality and how to live a moral life. But the people pushing this agenda can't even keep it up. What the hell are we supposed to think?

Would you put your money with an investment firm that had a track record of losing money? Well, no, because it likely wouldn't exist anymore. Would you take your child to a doctor known for patients who died inexplicably under his care? Would you buy a Chrysler, for heaven's sake?

Thus the solution is to think less and obey more? Shall we cover our women's heads and make them remain silent in church? Or strike off the hand that offends? Perhaps we should give our daughters over to gang rape, since that is the right thing to do. Will Christian churches stop sanctioning adulterous second marriages? Yes, let us return to that age from which so many of the lethal hatreds of our modern era arise.

Perhaps people would find the merit in keeping their women subservient, and rally 'round the televised crucifixions of killers, petty thieves, and dissidents. Who knows? Really, maybe they would. Except the people pitching that route to them show, by the conduct and produce of their very own lives, the futility of such a journey.

I would not denounce Ms. Sims for her outburst. Certainly, one might point to the Bible and advise her to dust off and follow in the footsteps of her savior, but the fact remains that she is a human being, and human beings are not Christ. And, you know, even Christ had a limit.

So the point isn't to ridicule the pastor's daughter for getting a few things off her chest. Rather, we might consider the minor scandals she rebukes and wonder—If this is where Christian minds are at, do I really want to be part of it?

Really, it all seems like such a waste of time. There is nothing she complains about that should be foreign to anyone who has existed for an extended period in reasonable proximity to a church community. And that simmering, vindictive need?

5. Be careful how you speak to us. If you are on our bad side remember we are within direct earshot of your precious minister all the time. We eat dinner with them, watch wheel of fortune with them, and have access to emails they leave left up and we know your business. Now confidentiality it kept but beware whatever you think you know about me I promise I know more about you. I know which of your kids is gay, and how many times you were molested by uncle Vic. If I don’t like you or you do something I feel could hurt my parents or someone in the congregation I will tell on your ass, and go directly to my father. Keep in mind he may place a higher priority on helping your family, but we are his baby girls.

6. I am sure you have heard that pastors children are the worst when it comes to worldly behavior. In some cases this may be true, but honestly everything we do gets broadcasted to the world. It is a matter of you knowing everything about us and you criticizing, and us knowing nothing about you. Id say that’s not too fair. The standards we are held to are much higher. Therefore, it is much easier to fall short of status quo. If we speak to someones husband, the next day the buzz is that we are pregnant with his child. Its ridiculous. Some of you may read and think it doesn’t happen this way, but yes it does.

Absolutely toxic. But also human.

God may be supreme in some people's minds, but when you put Christian theories of God up against the realities of the human endeavor, God will lose nearly every time. The pastor's daughter reminds us, and we should heed her warning.
_____________________

Notes:

Sims, Rome. "From the pastor's daughter". Rome Sims Rite's Blog. November 10, 2009. RomeSimsWrites.WordPress.com. November 10, 2009. http://romesimswrites.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/from-the-pastors-daughter/
 
Let's go with that

LightGigantic said:

I'm not sure what your suggesting?

That if spiritual life can't satisfy your teenage daughter it can't satisfy anyone?

Um ... sure. Let's go with that. It's certainly a lot easier to grasp than, say—

The problem is this: We keep hearing about morality and how to live a moral life. But the people pushing this agenda can't even keep it up. What the hell are we supposed to think?

—or—

Rather, we might consider the minor scandals she rebukes and wonder—If this is where Christian minds are at, do I really want to be part of it?

And most definitely more apparent, since I didn't bother stating it explicitly with italic accent.
 
Is this the "Caesar's wife" argument applied to the pastors family?
 
The pastor's daughter fires back ... at churchgoers:


There are real people in real churches that behave in these ways. I have seen them and felt some of the pastor's daughter's feelings myself.

But...

I have also seen real people in real churches that would never behave in this way and would be completely disgusted by these things, just as you are now.

So to me this is a real danger that people can fall into, but it is not all-inclusive.
 
Last edited:
Rather, we might consider the minor scandals she rebukes and wonder—If this is where Christian minds are at, do I really want to be part of it?

I think this is a reasonable question.

After all, the Christians preach eternal damnation to anyone who doesn't think and do as they say, and do as if they had the monopoly over what the Absolute truth is.

And when they then behave like simple run-of-the-mill people, pursuing run-of-the-mill pleasures, one has to wonder whether they really know God or the Absolute truth at all, or whether perhaps knowledge of God and the Absolute truth brings a person such a meagre satisfaction that in order to find at least some happiness in life, they have to resort to all those run-of-the-mill ways of pursuing happiness (ie. the eat, drink and make merry).
 
i have seen the pastors children act like angels in church and around fellow church goers, then in public away from the church goers, curse like a sailor, grabbing girls' butts, dressed like whores.. and I have seen pastors children always be good people.. it just depends on how parents raised their kids
 
Same here, in fact I've never met anyone as wild and degenerate as one pastor's son I knew. I guess they have alot to rebel against.
 
Um ... sure. Let's go with that. It's certainly a lot easier to grasp than, say—

The problem is this: We keep hearing about morality and how to live a moral life. But the people pushing this agenda can't even keep it up. What the hell are we supposed to think?

—or—

Rather, we might consider the minor scandals she rebukes and wonder—If this is where Christian minds are at, do I really want to be part of it?

And most definitely more apparent, since I didn't bother stating it explicitly with italic accent.
Sure, religion has the highest capacity for hypocrisy since the higher the standard, the less likely people in general will be able to abide by it.

Arguably some paths or communities have better "tools" for rendering their ideals more "doable" than others.
 
The pastor's daughter fires back ... at churchgoers:

1. When you see us walk into church late and give us the evil eye and say, “So nice of you to join us.” we really want to punch you in the face. First of all, Saturday night and Sunday morning are the most chaotic time in our home, and maybe we were at the store getting the doughnuts you are gonna stuff your face with later, or YOUR birthday present my parents forgot about. It is also possible that we are incredibly hung over and had to wash the (cough) residue off from the night before, but don’t assume the worst.

2. When you see us looking around aimlessly during service and possibly texting do not assume we are just being a rebellious hellion. Think of it this way, the man speaking is my father. I hear his sermons all day everyday and most likely proofread his notes the night before, and even helped write them. When you hear your parents rant and rave all your life eventually they all end up sounding like gibberish, despite the power of the message. So remember you get to go home during the week, we never get to not hear it. Also, when you see me texting check and see if my mom has her phone out also.

3. The power of the front row is that nobody can see your face or what you are doing. We do not sit there because we think we are special. Seriously, if its that big of an effing deal you sit in the front row too stupid. Also, while in the front row we cant see your scorning eye, and we like it that way.

4. Yes, we do get special treatment with certain things. Consider the sacrifices before you let that BS roll off your tongue. When you see us walk up to the t shirt sales table and just grab one and walk away without paying, think about the days when we sat at home sick with no parents because they were at your house bringing you soup and holding your hair when you were barfing. So, yes thank you for my t shirt I really appreciate it. You have no idea the rules and regulations we have to follow that you or your children do not have to abide by. Imagine if your parents income was based on your behavior, or for that matter imagine if your children’s good behavior decided the level of your success. When I say, “you have no idea” I mean you have no idea. next time you feel the burning words “They just get to do that because they are the pastors children,” just swallow that fiery statement and eat a tums, cause we hold our words back more than you could ever know.


(Sims)

Wow. That blistering tirade just gets more and more sinister as you go.

A message from a girl born into religion. Not from a person who has made the personal decision to accept Jesus as their Lord and Redeemer.



True, one can revel in the discord within the corpus Christi, but more interesting questions beg our attention. In years past, I have made the observation that Christians need to clean up their own houses, first, before demanding that everyone else ... um ... well, you know, whatever. Stop having sex with people of the same gender, stop listening to evil rap and heavy metal, stop watching crappy television—but not because it's crappy; rather, God will be angry if you see Dennis Franz's ass. At any rate, if I haven't said it lately, it's because those religious people just don't care. I still believe it, but I'm through wasting those words on hateful flesh wrapped around empty souls.

Most people would make a snotty argument about it, though: Why should we be moral if you're not? But the problem is one of function.

Look, the rest of us hear the message; we cannot help but hear it with how many evangelical networks, the religious favoritism page in many newspapers, the glut of ugly churches fouling up our cities every few blocks, the political action groups, the bookstores—really, what is the point of celebrating that you are a best-seller in a field restricted to make sure that only you and a few other people can have best-sellers?—and even the obnoxious billboard in Seattle that once read, "Liberty is not the freedom to do what you want, but the freedom to do what God tells you to."

The problem is this: We keep hearing about morality and how to live a moral life. But the people pushing this agenda can't even keep it up. What the hell are we supposed to think?

That People are People.

Irrespective of their personal failings are. The Message that they hold with esteem should be assessed without the biased caused by looking at the Messenger.



Would you put your money with an investment firm that had a track record of losing money? Well, no, because it likely wouldn't exist anymore. Would you take your child to a doctor known for patients who died inexplicably under his care? Would you buy a Chrysler, for heaven's sake?

See your argument here is about performance in this world, isn't it. You miss the main focus and reasons behind the moral teachings of God. And that is to show us how far we fall short of God and need His intervention in Eternity.

Christianity has never been about achieving a goody goody, perfect state of existance in this life.



Thus the solution is to think less and obey more? Shall we cover our women's heads and make them remain silent in church? Or strike off the hand that offends? Perhaps we should give our daughters over to gang rape, since that is the right thing to do. Will Christian churches stop sanctioning adulterous second marriages? Yes, let us return to that age from which so many of the lethal hatreds of our modern era arise.

Rant.


Perhaps people would find the merit in keeping their women subservient, and rally 'round the televised crucifixions of killers, petty thieves, and dissidents. Who knows? Really, maybe they would. Except the people pitching that route to them show, by the conduct and produce of their very own lives, the futility of such a journey.

Rant.



I would not denounce Ms. Sims for her outburst. Certainly, one might point to the Bible and advise her to dust off and follow in the footsteps of her savior, but the fact remains that she is a human being, and human beings are not Christ. And, you know, even Christ had a limit.

Christ was not a human like Ms. Sims. Ms Sims is just a frustrated individual caught up in a religious organization, not knowing the truth of the faith she things she is a part of, but is not.



So the point isn't to ridicule the pastor's daughter for getting a few things off her chest. Rather, we might consider the minor scandals she rebukes and wonder—If this is where Christian minds are at, do I really want to be part of it?

Once again. What is true and what is garbage to be rejected can be known from the Words of Jesus. One can come to understand these things if one is willing to follow His word and not the thoughts of men.



Really, it all seems like such a waste of time. There is nothing she complains about that should be foreign to anyone who has existed for an extended period in reasonable proximity to a church community. And that simmering, vindictive need?

I got out of a Church community. I understand what she means. But you do not through out the baby just because it is in dirty bathwater. You first get the baby out and wrap it up and hold it with Love.



5. Be careful how you speak to us. If you are on our bad side remember we are within direct earshot of your precious minister all the time. We eat dinner with them, watch wheel of fortune with them, and have access to emails they leave left up and we know your business. Now confidentiality it kept but beware whatever you think you know about me I promise I know more about you. I know which of your kids is gay, and how many times you were molested by uncle Vic. If I don’t like you or you do something I feel could hurt my parents or someone in the congregation I will tell on your ass, and go directly to my father. Keep in mind he may place a higher priority on helping your family, but we are his baby girls.


She is a very angry girl.


6. I am sure you have heard that pastors children are the worst when it comes to worldly behavior. In some cases this may be true, but honestly everything we do gets broadcasted to the world. It is a matter of you knowing everything about us and you criticizing, and us knowing nothing about you. Id say that’s not too fair. The standards we are held to are much higher. Therefore, it is much easier to fall short of status quo. If we speak to someones husband, the next day the buzz is that we are pregnant with his child. Its ridiculous. Some of you may read and think it doesn’t happen this way, but yes it does.
Absolutely toxic. But also human.

She may be being held up to higher standards. But she shows by admitting that in some cases it is true that pastors kids fall down a lot in "worldly behaviour" that it is the religious notion of working and striving to achieve a state of Goodness in the flesh that causes people to fall way below because when they find they cannot achieve the goody goody state they become demoralized and give up all attempt at righteousness and go feral.



God may be supreme in some people's minds, but when you put Christian theories of God up against the realities of the human endeavor, God will lose nearly every time. The pastor's daughter reminds us, and we should heed her warning.

God never loses :)

This poor Girl is losing though.

So do all people who think that getting right with God is about achieving righteousness in their lives through their own efforts and strivings. They all fall down. Some fall down and admit it and rebel. Some fall down and keep it secret and live a life of a lie.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
The problem is this: We keep hearing about morality and how to live a moral life. But the people pushing this agenda can't even keep it up. What the hell are we supposed to think?
This would certainly hold for Liberals and Conservatives, and then the far right and left also have done and continue to do
bad stuff.
Is there some large group out there that doesn't need to clean house
while at the same time taking the 'moral high ground'?
 
The problem is this: We keep hearing about morality and how to live a moral life. But the people pushing this agenda can't even keep it up. What the hell are we supposed to think?

—or—

Rather, we might consider the minor scandals she rebukes and wonder—If this is where Christian minds are at, do I really want to be part of it?

What else is new?
Replace "Christian" with "Jewish", "Republican", "Democrat", "Cultural" etc.

That's the way hegemony works.
Create an ideal, spout it and tout it as truth. It doesn't matter whether it is truth - people will compare themselves to and judge themselves against that fantasy. Hell, it doesn't even matter if it is put out as truth - the same works with 'fiction'. How many people compare their lives to trash sitcoms like "Friends" and "Sex and the City" to determine their own worth or happiness? Consciously or not, millions base the ideals of their lives on unsustainable fantasy, and when they fall short, lose their self-respect and/or lie about it - thereby solidifying the fantasy for others.

Look at the "Happy Housewives" from the fifties, believing that they are less of a person, less of a woman if being knee-deep in dirty diapers and being the demure, doting wife of the man of the house isn't fully satisfying - people STILL compare their lives to that mound of shit, and it wasn't even true THEN.

There is not a segment of society innocent of the sordid practice.
 
...So do all people who think that getting right with God is about achieving righteousness in their lives through their own efforts and strivings. They all fall down. Some fall down and admit it and rebel. Some fall down and keep it secret and live a life of a lie.


Why then does the Bible from cover to cover, Old and New Testaments, command people to be righteous, and even to be "perfect" as their "heavenly Father is perfect"?

Why are Christians told to pursue their salvation with "fear and trembling"?

Why are they told to obey "The Law" to be saved?

Why are they told that if they continue to sin they are not "true" Christians?
 
Why then does the Bible from cover to cover, Old and New Testaments, command people to be righteous, and even to be "perfect" as their "heavenly Father is perfect"?

Righteous is not only about righteousness in deed. It is about Righteousness in spirit. We can have the right attitude towards Gods will, while at the same time falling short of keeping it in deed. God looks for the intent. And the bible says time and time again that all fall short and there are none righteous in the flesh.

Why are Christians told to pursue their salvation with "fear and trembling"?

Well they are told to Work out their own salvation.

Philippians 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That means figure it out find out about the way to salvation. Come towards an understanding of how one is saved. "Fear and trembling" Well we are talking about an issue that is of incredible importance with eternal consequences depending on our decision. So such a search should be undertaken with all seriousness.



Why are they told to obey "The Law" to be saved?

And What Did Jesus say about the Law? What did it all boil down to?

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

So the commandments of Jesus are.

1 John 3
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Ahhh the Law of Love. Yep the love of the truth.



Why are they told that if they continue to sin they are not "true" Christians?

Not sin but Willfull sin.

Have you not heard the saying that there are no words in scripture that have no meaning? All words in scripture are important.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

As Paul says about the importance of once will in regard to sin:

Romans 7
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Well this is fun

While I appreciate all the buzz about my blog, I truly hate religious debates involving people that have no intention of changing their views. I am "Sims." I agree mostly with one of the posts about being born into a religious community, and being in dirty water but not actually the dirty one. As far as being a witch, that I am not. As far as not being a believer that is incorrect. I wrote a response blog not long after this post if anyone cares. Now I know that by saying I am a Christian it is going to rain fire, but hey I am used to that.
 
Righteous is not only about righteousness in deed. It is about Righteousness in spirit. We can have the right attitude towards Gods will, while at the same time falling short of keeping it in deed. God looks for the intent. And the bible says time and time again that all fall short and there are none righteous in the flesh.


So apparently a person can sin, say, murder an abortion provider, as long as they have the right intent, the right spirit?

I hate the current practice of abortion, by the way.

The Bible gives a number of examples of people who were righteous, and Paul declared himself to be blameless according to the Law. Some of these were even declared to be righteous without Christ's sacrifice.


Well they are told to Work out their own salvation.

Philippians 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That means figure it out find out about the way to salvation. Come towards an understanding of how one is saved. "Fear and trembling" Well we are talking about an issue that is of incredible importance with eternal consequences depending on our decision. So such a search should be undertaken with all seriousness.


Thanks for the clarification but your interpretation seems to be watering this down quite a bit.

Perhaps Matthew 5:27-30 (See Below) is closer to the kind of “fear and trembling” that was described here, where you pluck your own eye out and cut off your own right hand to avoid being thrown into hell. My wife actually had a cousin try to cut off his right hand in his parent’s kitchen once. It was literally a scene from a horror movie.

And What Did Jesus say about the Law? What did it all boil down to?

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

So the commandments of Jesus are.

1 John 3
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Ahhh the Law of Love. Yep the love of the truth.


That is in the Bible just as you stated but that is not the whole story...

Some of the Law is indeed based on Love but much of it is not and is instead based on Subjugation, Justice, and Vengeance, so this premise is partly false.

Christians often seem to use the Blood of Christ to justify themselves in their sin. They seem to be content with that and eventually give up trying to be a better person because that is just the way God made them. They are told that they will not be repaired until after they die so their sins now are expected and even O.K. as long as they ask for forgiveness afterwards.

In Revelation it clearly teaches that all men will be judged according to their works and will be placed in heaven or hell according to their deeds.

Here is what faith/righteousness used to look like... ...but we know better today don't we?


Genesis 26:5 (New King James Version)

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”


The following is also in the Bible and it does not seem to agree with the other verses you provided. In fact it seems to increase the impact of the Law, not diminish it, in that it adds thought as sin. It also states that the Law will remain in full force until heaven and earth passes away. Please don't miss the part I put in bold. How does that work in your view? How does that not describe much of the Christian world in this current day? How many Christians are taught to keep the Sabbath any more? Do you keep the Sabbath yourself? Do you keep the Law and thus participate in the killing of your own family members that do not keep it?


Matthew 5:17-48 (New King James Version)

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


And there is this bit of instruction by Paul...

Romans 2:5-13 (New King James Version)

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;


This is why there is such titanic disagreement in the Christian world over these issues.

Because the Bible teaches contradictions as truth.

Not sin but Willfull sin.

Have you not heard the saying that there are no words in scripture that have no meaning? All words in scripture are important.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

As Paul says about the importance of once will in regard to sin:

Romans 7
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.


I fail to understand how anyone, Christian or not, can ever be held accountable for, or be condemmned to hell for, unwillfull sin. If true, then all real sin is willfull by definition. Can you give me an example of a sin that is not willfull?

Romans 7 seems to separate what a person thinks (desires) from what a person does while Matthew 5, the passage I just provided above, seems to teach exactly the opposite. That what a person thinks (desires) and what a person does are virtually the same thing. Please explain how both of these passages work together.
 
Last edited:
Dysfunctional


This would certainly hold for Liberals and Conservatives, and then the far right and left also have done and continue to do
bad stuff.
Is there some large group out there that doesn't need to clean house
while at the same time taking the 'moral high ground'?
(Doreen)

• • •​

What else is new?
Replace "Christian" with "Jewish", "Republican", "Democrat", "Cultural" etc ....

.... There is not a segment of society innocent of the sordid practice.
(One Raven)

When I was a kid, my mom joined a "Hobby Club" in which wives would gather and make cheap tchotchke while the men sat around, quaffed some beer, and shot the shit. I mean, there was the cotton-ball snowmen, the hat boxes with cheap paisley fabric hot-glued to the outside with a bit of lace around the top edge ... I think the best work she ever did in that group was the quasi-batik of our house that looked only mildly less awkward than the massive Reynolds canvas we had hanging by the stairs.

I'm of the opinion that undertaking a religious faith is a bit different from joining a hobby club. Or a political party. Or a college fraternity. Or the goddamn Babysitters' Club.

Now, I recognize that some people might disagree with this, and presume religious faith to have no greater implications than being on the chess team.

But I must respectfully disagree with such shallow outlooks; they are simply dysfunctional.
 
Back
Top