Simple Test for the quran

[WildBlueYonder]

false prophet, false book, sorry old friends, all lies,

here's a simple test for your quran, if it is from God, why is it out of order?

why did men put it from largest sura to smallest sura order? why does it have Meccan & Medinan suras jumbled out of order? did allah not know what order he wanted to tell men his truth, by doing chronologically ordered suras? is allah absent-minded? has he got too many things on his mind, to bother with a short & sweet refutation of the Bible? or Christians?
so pre-ocuppied, that he obviously forgets truth, history, physics & the name that God said would be His Memorial Name forever? "YHWH",

Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."' 15 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: "The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'
NKJV
from:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/Gods-sacred-name.htm

So, why is it out of order?

 

[James R]

did allah not know what order he wanted to tell men his truth, by doing chronologically ordered suras?

Maybe Allah wanted the order to be from longest to shortest suras.

 

[surenderer]

false prophet, false book, sorry old friends, all lies,

here's a simple test for your quran, if it is from God, why is it out of order?

why did men put it from largest sura to smallest sura order? why does it have Meccan & Medinan suras jumbled out of order? did allah not know what order he wanted to tell men his truth, by doing chronologically ordered suras? is allah absent-minded? has he got too many things on his mind, to bother with a short & sweet refutation of the Bible? or Christians?
so pre-ocuppied, that he obviously forgets truth, history, physics & the name that God said would be His Memorial Name forever? "YHWH",



So, why is it out of order?

Well 1st i appreciate the respect you show our views anyways who ever said that the Koran was in chronological order? its not a book like the bible different revelations were reveled at different times for different reasons according to the situations. Their is no longest to shortest or whatever order to it but i suppose if one spends all their time trying to disprove something rather than understand it then i guess its ok if the best you can come up with is chronological order.....peace

 

[WildBlueYonder]

anyways who ever said that the Koran was in chronological order?

if it came from God, He would have given it in same order that it was written in, how can it be coming down from heaven, if it has the fingerprints of man?

its not a book like the bible different revelations were reveled at different times for different reasons according to the situations.

if its the same God, it would need some continuity

Their is no longest to shortest or whatever order to it

have you read the quran lately? or do you have the chronilogical one?

but i suppose if one spends all their time trying to disprove something rather than understand it then i guess its ok if the best you can come up with is chronological order.....peace

have you ever looked at your quran, or did you take someone's word for it? if its directly from God, it must be perfect or your god is imperfect?

salaam

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Maybe Allah wanted the order to be from longest to shortest suras.

but wouldn't he have revealed them in that order them, instead of mish-mashed between Meccan & Medinan suras (chapters)?

 

[James R]

Why? He could specify the order any time he wanted to.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Surrender, James R, one more point.

In my opinion an indication of the divinity of the Qur'an.

Allah/God in his Greatness said:

Maryam (Mary) 19: verse 97:

"So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention."

and..

Ad-Dukhan (The Smoke) 44: verse 58:

"Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed."

and..

Al-Qamar (The Moon) 54: verse40:

"And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?"

This is, probably not meant as a challenge, but I view it as a forcefull indication. Never have I heard of a single christian that memorized the bible, which is understandable considering the lmany languages that claim to have the exact word, the many versions, translations, interpretations and so on.

Now in Islam, all Muslims recognise one Qur'an. There are no divisions in that. This is in comformity with the Qur'an itself.

Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract) 15: verse 9:

15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

This perservation was achieved through the very important fact that Muslim religious scriptures were always in the hands of the people. There was no special class that had exclusive rights to it, like the christan priests for instance.

So when it was written down in the life of the prophet -peace be upon him, there were many that memorized it. When Othman -may God/Allah reward him- finished the compilation that was started before him and published it. There was not objection from the thousands of Muslims that had memorized at the time. The memorization has gone through from that time to ours. Uninterupted. There are millions nowadays that memorize the Qur'an, word by word. I don't think any version of "the" bible could match that.

A side note here. A factor that made the memorization of the Qur'an easy is the fact that it runs from large chapters and decreases steadily. This combined with fact that it is not chronological made it possible for childeren and any beginning leaner to start from the last and smallest surahs and go on learning whithout being afraid of disturbing the chronlogical sense. Also, quite amazingly the last surahs fit to be the beginning of The Book. They start with seeking refuge in God from all evils and then goes on to declare the uniqueness of God and so fort.

Also the chronological writing is not that special. It is more uman than not. The words of God don't have to be chronological in order to fit and make sense. This is something else that is noteworthy in the Qur'an. Since it would have taken "less" effort to reveal it chronologicaly as the men that wrote the bibles did.

One other part were the Qur'an distinct itself from the bibles is the fact that it is clear. When speaking of Himself, God says:"

AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY) 112:

"(1) Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; (2) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (3) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (4) And there is none like unto Him."

As you see there is no confusion. No riddles. You don't have to ask, is he one? or maybe three? is Mary -may peace be upon her- divine? Are we like God? How? I believe that even christians believe that God does not sow confusion. By this criterium, I ask all (neutral-)atheists here, which book is best fitting to be the word of God/Allah.

May peace be upon you.

P.S: It was not the Muslims that placed the surahs in any order. It was the order of the prophet -peace be upon him.

 

[James R]

Never have I heard of a single christian that memorized the bible, which is understandable ...

...because the bible is considerably longer than the Qu'ran.

I don't for sure if there are people who have memorised the bible, but I suspect there may be.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Surrender, James R, one more point.

In my opinion an indication of the divinity of the Qur'an.

Allah/God in his Greatness said:

Maryam (Mary) 19: verse 97:

"So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention."

and..

P.S: It was not the Muslims that placed the surahs in any order. It was the order of the prophet -peace be upon him.

what proves divinity?

easy? then it would have had vowel points, easy to understand, no unknowns (maybe only in English, so that the truth would not come out) like A.L.M. (might mean "satan is my master"?) what does A.L.M. mean?

tell us, is Mary both the mother of Jesus & the sister of Moses as the quran claims?

the order was determined by calif Uthman's compiler, check the history, because if that was true, Mohammad's first 'call' to recite would be in sura 1:1. & be called "The Call" or "Recite". Don't you think?

 

[fadeaway humper]

I ask all (neutral-)atheists here, which book is best fitting to be the word of God/Allah.

As a neutral atheist, I hereby declare that a book that clearly fulfills this requirement is "A Chicken in Every Pot - Global Recipes for the World's Most Popular Bird" by Kate Heyhoe.

As boring as the Bible, as poorly written as the Koran, yet completely exempt of the mind-bloggling nonsense, superstition and genocidal bloodlust of the aforementioned works, one can almost hear God's very own voice seeping through its pages. On top of that, it hasn't lead yet to the righteous murder of any human being (chickens, on the other hand, may energetically object to the wisdom of this most refined gospel. But then again, what do chickens know about God, anyway?)

 

[WildBlueYonder]

As you see there is no confusion. No riddles.

I would believe you, if I hadn't seen for myself, but my Malaysian neighbor's quran, clearly had "A.L.M." in the beginning of several surahs. the footnote clearly said that the word was unknown, why? some secret code? only for arabs to know or understand? I bet that if I look up all arabic words that have that the root "ALM", I'll be able to guess at what it should be? why is there an obscure word in the "perfect" quran?

You don't have to ask, is he one? or maybe three? is Mary -may peace be upon her- divine? Are we like God? How?

then what happened to the "satanic verses"? are the "heavenly cranes" not "allah's daughters"?

I believe that even christians believe that God does not sow confusion. By this criterium, I ask all (neutral-)atheists here, which book is best fitting to be the word of God/Allah.

asking an atheist for advise on religion? if they said "Mohammad was an epileptic, which triggered his 'God Module', making him think he was in direct communication with the divine, so the quran was a man's ramblings", would you believe it? how about a true agnostic? not for me, these people do not understand God or the nature & Universe He created, why would I bother listening to them on that subject? if I want physical laws, biological laws, or math explained, ok then, but to answer "Ely Arroway's" comment in "Contact", "No words, no words, it's so beautiful" when seeing a galaxy firsthand. The answer would be:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
...
And God said, "Let there be light", and there was light."
that would be the "BIG Bang", the rest is history & math

May peace be upon you.

with all the "peace be upon you's", you would think that islam would be a "peace" religion like Ba'hais, but as both israelis & arabs know, saying "Shalom" &/or "Salaam" for greetings guarantees nothing, they can both be 'without Ruth'.

P.S: It was not the Muslims that placed the surahs in any order. It was the order of the prophet -peace be upon him.

wrong again, me bucko, he died without a will, without a successor & without compiling the quran, don't try any of that "al-taqiya" on us.
http://ismaili.net/histoire/history04/history405.html

 

[Bruce Wayne]

dhimmi, where do you live?

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

...because the bible is considerably longer than the Qu'ran.

A friend of mine memorized the Qur'an in less than two months at the age of thirteen. Let's say teh bible is ten time longer. If it was the same quality it would need year and a half, that can be done in human lifetime can't it?

I don't for sure if there are people who have memorised the bible, but I suspect there may be.

Let's say there is one or two. They would be rarities. Compare that to the millions that have memorized -with little effort- the Qur'an. Note that this memorization was -as early stated- pivotal in the preservation of the Holy Book.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

tell us, is Mary both the mother of Jesus & the sister of Moses as the quran claims?

You must have noted how I call surrender, brother have you not? We do not have the same parents yet we are brothers. One of the failings of those that claimed to follow the son of Maryam -peace be upon them both- is that they, contrary to the Jews are not semithic and were in an empire and a tradition that viewed the having of a son by the supreme God (Cronos, Zeus, Hercules) as normal. They made the mistake a Jew would never do. To view the words father in the case of God as a literal meaning. Ask the Jews of whether G-d has a son.

the order was determined by calif Uthman's compiler, check the history, because if that was true, Mohammad's first 'call' to recite would be in sura 1:1. & be called "The Call" or "Recite". Don't you think?

No, because if that was true the prophet -may God's blessings and peace be upon him- would not have needed to specify the order. Yet he did. By the order of his Creator and the Creator of the Messiah -peace be upon him.

Think about History. Uthman was not the one tha compiled it. It was at the order of Abu bakr, and Omar -May Allah reward them- before him. It was compiled by others though and the work happened to be finished under Uthman -May allah reawrd him. Also he was someone the Prophet -peace be upon him- trusted. There is also the fact that, as I stated before, many many Muslims memorized the Words by heart. If they felt that they had been violated they would have done something.

In fact the ease of memorization is that which christianity lacked. If they had that. If the word was in the hand of the people they would not have ended with all the different versions.

Peace be unto you.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I would believe you, if I hadn't seen for myself, but my Malaysian neighbor's quran, clearly had "A.L.M." in the beginning of several surahs. the footnote clearly said that the word was unknown, why? some secret code? only for arabs to know or understand? I bet that if I look up all arabic words that have that the root "ALM", I'll be able to guess at what it should be? why is there an obscure word in the "perfect" quran?

It is a matter beyond our knowing. It si not for arabs only to understand, which is evident. You can try to do that but you will lose you bet if you do. The perfect Qur'an also pocessed other things which at the beginning were not understood. But as science proceeds we are getting to learn them more and more. It is because this Perfect book never ceases to give. It defies time because it is confirmed by time and not negated by new discoveries as is the case with "another" book.

then what happened to the "satanic verses"? are the "heavenly cranes" not "allah's daughters"?

You are not serious here. This is simply something you want to believe.....

asking an atheist for advise on religion? if they said "Mohammad was an epileptic, which triggered his 'God Module', making him think he was in direct communication with the divine, so the quran was a man's ramblings", would you believe it? how about a true agnostic? not for me, these people do not understand God or the nature & Universe He created, why would I bother listening to them on that subject?

You have a point here. Alas it is irrelevant in this case. I asked them to judge froma open minded perspective. I also gave them the choice between two believes and supplied the criteria to be applied. Now if one of them understands the question correctly, He will not take into consideration his unbelieve since he has the choice between two believes and his unbelieve would then be irrelevant.

Also there are instances when they could have a valuable imput. Here the example of the great flood comes to mind. The Qur'an mentions it but doesnt say the entire earth was covered. I believe the bible does make that claim. An atheist would than be led to conclude that since the flood had not covered the entire earth that the bible is wrong where the Qur'an is not in disaccord with science.

if I want physical laws, biological laws, or math explained, ok then, but to answer "Ely Arroway's" comment in "Contact", "No words, no words, it's so beautiful" when seeing a galaxy firsthand. The answer would be:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
...
And God said, "Let there be light", and there was light."
that would be the "BIG Bang", the rest is history & math

I don't know whether it started with light. On the other hand the Qur'an depicts it much more clearly. I do not care to demonstrate that though since I don't have the time and since the info is wide available on the internet.

with all the "peace be upon you's", you would think that islam would be a "peace" religion like Ba'hais, but as both israelis & arabs know, saying "Shalom" &/or "Salaam" for greetings guarantees nothing, they can both be 'without Ruth'.

Like the ba'hai?? not like christianity?? Could it be that you ahve started to understand that christianity is not with peace.

Furthermore we are only living up to the spirit of our believe and that of our prophets -peace be upon them all. Even your foregery states that Isa -peace be upon him- says that his followers greet like that. He himself did it.

wrong again, me bucko, he died without a will, without a successor & without compiling the quran, don't try any of that "al-taqiya" on us.

Bucko?? :bugeye:

Ain't that a usefull concept? If I correct you and teach you the truth you throw the taqyia at me. My arguments stand. The fact that you resort to it says more about you than me bucko (whatever that means )

peace be upon you. (in the spirit of the word of God:

Al-Furqan (The Criterion) 25:verse 63:

"And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";")

http://ismaili.net/histoire/history04/history405.html

p.s: the link you gave is about the Shi'a. The Sunna used to accuse them of taquia too.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

dhimmi, where do you live?

:m:

don't insult your equals, I'm not a your dhimmi or anyone else's, dhimwit. why do you want to know where I live? is this a terrorist threat? ready to send out hit squads, now that I know your secret? that the quran can not be defended, so out come the swords, beheading time? huh? can stand people standing up to your lies? oh, too bad, wait till the scientists, archeologists & literary critics get ahold of the quran, they'll rip it to shreds, because it holds no internal consistancies, face it, it's the ramblings of an epileptic egomaniac.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

A friend of mine memorized the Qur'an in less than two months at the age of thirteen. Let's say teh bible is ten time longer. If it was the same quality it would need year and a half, that can be done in human lifetime can't it?

Let's say there is one or two. They would be rarities. Compare that to the millions that have memorized -with little effort- the Qur'an. Note that this memorization was -as early stated- pivotal in the preservation of the Holy Book.

memorizing lies, proves nothing. what diff does that make? are you saying that it proves divinity? check your own hadiths, Ayesha had the first copy, followed by at least 2 others before Calif Uthman standardized it, burned all divergant copies, source materials, even memories (by ordering that this was the official version). read for yourself
BTW, I'm impressed with your friends memory, but what did he do with his knowledge? is he a scholar? or did he memorize a math or physics book? what has he done with his talent?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

It is a matter beyond our knowing. It si not for arabs only to understand, which is evident. You can try to do that but you will lose you bet if you do. The perfect Qur'an also pocessed other things which at the beginning were not understood.

in otherwords its a secret, even you don't know or aren't tellling? it must say something that muslims don't want us to know, like al-manat?

But as science proceeds we are getting to learn them more and more. It is because this Perfect book never ceases to give. It defies time because it is confirmed by time and not negated by new discoveries as is the case with "another" book.

when science begins to tear apart your wholy book, what will you claim then? that science is wrong? islam does not even stand up to simple logic, or historical facts

Al-Furqan (The Criterion) 25:verse 63:

"And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";")

so, what you are saying, is that when you say "peace", to you is an insult to us so-called ignorant ones? what an underhanded sneaky devilish way of insulting someone, what a master you serve! that taught you such devious ways!

p.s: the link you gave is about the Shi'a. The Sunna used to accuse them of taquia too.

so its shi'ia, don't believe them? they are your brothers, no?

 

[fadeaway humper]

Relax, Randolfo, I think he was adressing me with the "dhimmi" (although I'm technically a kafir) . Nobody is coming after you!

Bruce: I live in Spain, by the way.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Relax, Randolfo, I think he was adressing me with the "dhimmi" (although I'm technically a kafir) . Nobody is coming after you!

Bruce: I live in Spain, by the way.

why should he care where anyone lives? what, meet for coffee or tea?
& 'dhimmi' is an insult, even if you use it as 'dhimmi' power, I think it implies more like a 'child' or someone 'protected by a superior'. I'll stick to "Christian" & protected by God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi