Should we really honour the modern soldier?

Zanket said:
No one forced them to drop bombs on kids. Duress of law is nothing compared to that.

That's a separate argument, I think. I agree entirely.

But in the day, there was no guarantee that the soldier one was spitting on was directly guilty or knowledgeable of the specific results of any given support activity. One of the failings of the psychedelic left was its unrefined, disorganized anger. Mobilized and ideological, much as a religion can sink into fundamentalism without vocal and educated leadership, so too did the nearly-pentecostal fervor of the Flower Age tread at times into a self-betraying rejection of due process and human respect. What "enlightened" leadership there was suffered a classic flaw of the left: by conducting itself similarly to what it rejects, the angry left only undermines itself by miring its principles in unnatural selection.

Some in the conservative-exploitative agenda have cracked jokes about the shoe-waving and -pelting behavior in parts of the Muslim world, but the American leftist heritage with which I sympathize cannot duck that chapter of its own. It's well enough to say "it wasn't me," but in the history of ideas that come together as a major tributary to my own identity politics, much as I feel the Christian ought recall at times the atrocities of the past, so I ought not duck this of any of the dozens of ridiculous episodes of the history of the Left. I mean, hey ... did you catch that Communist Revolution in Russia? Good show, that one. (Purging the intellectuals is so unhealthy for the future of a society--but look at how it developed without them. Nearly-fundamentalist. It's a recurring theme.)

Emma Goldman, after whom I name my daughter, attempted assassination. Lord Acton wrote a compelling, dispassionate argument in favor of American slavery. One of my most apparent ideological identity politics is derived from an idea which must necessarily at some point be invoked as a cutoff-point for human sympathy: Sisyphus must be happy.

I'm aware of ... most (?!) ... okay, many .... I'm aware of many of the traps of my own ideological heritage, and amid the expectant optimism of the Flower Age, I must also acknowledge that the history, as I understand it, includes the potential of such raw communal energy leading to some ugly mob behavior. I mean, come on ... that was supposed to be the "enlightened" left during the Flower Age.

If the New American Century ruptures into a new Flower tantrum, I have considerably higher expectations of the Flower Children.

They went way over the line in their anger on many occasions.

That injustice is what I refer to.

The war may go horribly, but the Left in general has a hard time saving face whenever it goes vigilante. Due process, not personal satisfaction, is the proper demand of the Left in the face of a war it finds repugnant. Just as due process ought to be the minimum standard of any war the Left finds favorable.

Every soldier in Iraq signed on willingly. A deserter said he'd served his term, and claims it was the US who broke contract. I ... I don't necessarily agree, but I haven't read all the fine print. This war is an atrocity, and while we ought not go out of our way to harass soldiers returning from Iraq or whatever action one disapproves of, we need not defer automatically to the nobility and honor of the soldier, in this or any other country.

I mean, I have no ill words whatsoever for the soldiers in the Solomon Islands. As I understand it, they're doing exactly what soldiers are supposed to be doing, and quite well. Perhaps there's some press I'm missing somewhere, but that whole operation seems impressive.

The shock and awe shown by some of my American neighbors, the rumblings of a press corps seeking a headline and stirring up all sorts of crap in the water cooler, and the mantra of "God bless the USA," and the wrecking of the seventh-inning stretch, and the whole of the war culture seems bent on lending moral legitimacy to a bunch of volunteers who chose to follow their presidents come Hell or heavy sandstorm. If the duty undertaken by these volunteers includes the New American Century, then I think right there is a strike against the automatic deference of honor and respect to the modern (American) soldier.

But beyond the suspension of automatic moral elevation, these soldiers, too, are human. We owe them some compassion in the face of their sins when they sin. And yes, I have a little more compassion for the conscripts as well. Doesn't mean you don't hold them responsible. But apparently I'm the only one who sees the difference between a frightened teenage conscript failing to understand the problems of some of his orders and the idea of a volunteer who, in conscious choosing of the warring path, has less reason to have missed or to forget on occasion certain points of refinement.

You're right. All human beings are exactly alike. Circumstances have nothing to do with anything. ;)
 
I was watching and eposode of Frasure the other day and i am wondering if this happens in real life over in the states

Frasure critisises the polices of the senate candiate and the responce was "How dare a non millatry serving, single person critise a Family man who served in...." ect

Is it really the case that people over there think that because they served in the armed forces that there arguments should carry more wieght?

or was it just a joke
 
In the end those who are willing to kill for their beliefs have more power than those who are not willing to kill for theirs simply because in the end they can always kill the pacifist. This does not mean that violence is the best answer. It has been my experience that violence is usually a bad answer. Violence usually stops all other options and end up causing too much destruction to be a viable option.
 
spaganya
If U don’t understand Y U hav 1 bin laden then U ill definitely end up with thousands, stop acting naïve, save Ur self before USA is wiped out of world map with or without world.
 
RawThinkTank said:
If U don’t understand Y U hav 1 bin laden then U ill definitely end up with thousands, stop acting naïve, save Ur self before USA is wiped out of world map with or without world.

first of all, learn how to type please, it took me forever to figure out what you are saying.

second of all, thats not an answer or response to my question. what are you talking about? or are you just lacking an intelligent response and just resigned that the US is destined for the pits of hell? :bugeye:
 
spaganya said:
Oh PLEASE. War is inevidable.

Defensive war may be likely in the long run. Offensive war is certainly not inevitable; it’s a choice.

Being human means having to sometimes do and be things that others might disagree with - it doesnt make someone a bad person.

So you respect serial killers and pedophiles? They’re good people to you?

Question for you - Is there such a thing as a "just" war? (i.e. WWII with the mass genocide - people fought to end the horrific happenings....etc.)

Sure. A just war is a defensive war in which you make your best effort to minimize casualties on both sides. You defend yourself only to the extent necessary. WWII started out with a just beginning for the US but they gave up just cause with the Dresden, Hiroshima, & Nagasaki bombings among others. It is obvious those civilians did not need to be killed. The US ended that war as an offender for the purpose of cementing their role as a superpower, so they could leverage this superpower status for profit.

Basically zanket, I understand you disagree with the war, but why shame the messengers, and the people who have the unfortunate job of having to carry out someone else's wishes?

I think you asked me that already. It’s because they are not the messengers. They are the enforcers, the ones who make a bad war possible. And I disrespect not only them but also the people who lead them and those who support those leaders, and to a lesser extent even those who don’t support the leaders but do support the troops. But this thread isn’t about them; it’s about only the soldiers. Unlike the messenger, who generally does not know what the message they are delivering is, the soldier knows they are executing a bad war, or should know (ignorance is not an excuse when the information is widely available).

An advice column I read recently had a question from a prosecuting attorney. He said he frequently prosecutes drug users and small-time drug dealers, often sending them to prison for lengthy terms. He wanted to know if the fact that he was a user of those same drugs himself made him a hypocrite. If you think about it, that is analogous to the issue we are debating here.
 
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laughing weasel said:
Let me get this straight zanket. You believe that any one who disagrees with you should not deserve respect. If that is what you are saying then I feel sad for you. That is the exact kind of attitude that starts wars that soldiers have to fight in.

I presume then that you respect serial killers and pedophiles. There are degrees of disagreement.
 
tiassa said:
Due process, not personal satisfaction, is the proper demand of the Left in the face of a war it finds repugnant. Just as due process ought to be the minimum standard of any war the Left finds favorable.

I agree. I wouldn’t spit on a returning soldier. It is possible that any one individual is in fact a Hugh-Thompson-like hero. I disrespect the soldiers there in general. Ideally I’d want them to know that millions of people here in the US disrespect what they’re doing (not that millions do; I’m arguing here that they should), to give them in an inverse way the support they need to quit the offensive. Ideally what the soldiers are doing there would be illegal. But it's not (the US is now the definer of legality worldwide), so disrespect seems the next best recourse.
 
laughing weasel said:
In the end those who are willing to kill for their beliefs have more power than those who are not willing to kill for theirs simply because in the end they can always kill the pacifist.

That's irrelevant to this topic. I’m no pacifist myself.
 
Fallen Angel said:
tiassa, no automatic respect is needed, but zanket's automatic disrespect is inapropiate.

There seem to be a lot of people in this thread who respect serial killers and pedophiles--or at least don't automatically disrespect them. If a pedophile writes a book about how much he likes sodomizing toddlers and he doesn't deserve automatic disrepect, then really the word should be removed from the dictionary as useless. A soldier in an offensive war does far worse than sodomize toddlers--he kills them.
 
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zanket said:
There seem to be a lot of people in this thread who respect serial killers and pedophiles--or at least don't automatically disrespect them. If a pedophile writes a book about how much he likes sodomizing toddlers and he doesn't deserve automatic disrepect, then really the word should be removed from the dictionary as useless. A soldier in an offensive war does far worse than sodomize toddlers--he kills them.


Okay, why are you comparing soldiers to pedophiles an serial killers (who by nature are mental sociopaths and dont even view what they do as wrong or right) ?????

When i say we should respect soldiers you seem to think that respect equates being in agreement about what they do. Havent you ever been in a debate or fight or arugument and might not like what the other person is saying but because of the dedication they give to their conviction and the way about they defend their point of view or simply the way they carry out the task puts you in awe? Respect doesnt mean you have to like what the soldiers do, respect means that you should realize that altho they might do things that you disagree with, they nonetheless would do any job put before them. These are the same soldiers who will put their life on the line oneday maybe for something YOU care deeply about - and because of THAT they deserve respect. They do things that YOU wouldnt have the balls to do. :mad:
 
wouldnt have the balls to do or have the courage to see that its wrong?

who wouldnt fight if someone invaded, that isnt the debate. Its wether they can see how they are being used NOW and stand up against it rather than blindly follow along
 
All of your soldier hate is misplaced as always. Michael Moore, an icon I would think, for the Leftist movement just came out with a film called Fahrenheit 9/11. Surprisingly (or so it would seem according to the likes of zanket) he is careful not to hate the soldiers for wrong reasons. He is extremely critical of the administration, and provides proof for it. If anyone would be against the war in Iraq, it would be him. All you leftists on this post should take lessons from him as he has the common sense to realize what soldiers do and where to place the blame.
 
spaganya said:
Okay, why are you comparing soldiers to pedophiles an serial killers (who by nature are mental sociopaths and dont even view what they do as wrong or right) ?????

A serial killer or pedophile is a sociopath by definition. Certainly they view what they are doing as right; otherwise they wouldn’t do it. They just disagree with most of society about whether their pleasure is right, and because of that disagreement society labels them as having an antisocial personality disorder (the definition of sociopath).

Likewise a soldier does what he thinks is right when he kills toddlers, whether in defense or offense. Society does not label either soldier (defensive or offensive) as a sociopath simply because most of society agrees with killing toddlers whether in defense or offense.

When i say we should respect soldiers you seem to think that respect equates being in agreement about what they do. Havent you ever been in a debate or fight or arugument and might not like what the other person is saying but because of the dedication they give to their conviction and the way about they defend their point of view or simply the way they carry out the task puts you in awe? Respect doesnt mean you have to like what the soldiers do, respect means that you should realize that altho they might do things that you disagree with, they nonetheless would do any job put before them.

That sounds nice but really it is all just rationalization. Replace “soldier” with “gang member” and read it back to yourself. Do you respect gang members because they would do any job their leader puts before them? I’d like you to answer that one.

These are the same soldiers who will put their life on the line oneday maybe for something YOU care deeply about - and because of THAT they deserve respect.

Like I said, when they defend me I respect them. You, like most people, seem to not distinguish between defense and offense. Defense is a firefighter. Offense is a gang member. BIG difference. I respect the firefighter. I won’t respect the gang member today because of some good he might do tomorrow.

They do things that YOU wouldnt have the balls to do.

It doesn’t take balls to kills toddlers for profit. They should have the balls to NOT do that when so ordered.
 
Asguard said:
wouldnt have the balls to do or have the courage to see that its wrong?

who wouldnt fight if someone invaded, that isnt the debate. Its wether they can see how they are being used NOW and stand up against it rather than blindly follow along

Exactly. Most people respect “blindly following along” rather standing up against it.
 
Fallen Angel said:
Michael Moore, an icon I would think, for the Leftist movement just came out with a film called Fahrenheit 9/11.

I wouldn’t call him an icon considering he sat on info he had about the US torture that could have stopped it sooner. Obviously he’s more concerned about profit than saving lives.

Surprisingly (or so it would seem according to the likes of zanket) he is careful not to hate the soldiers for wrong reasons.

Maybe because he doesn’t want a bullet through his head? There are lots of reasons I can think of for why he wouldn’t point out that the soldiers are accomplices to the murder ordered by Bush.
 
zanket said:
Likewise a soldier does what he thinks is right when he kills toddlers, whether in defense or offense. Society does not label either soldier (defensive or offensive) as a sociopath simply because most of society agrees with killing toddlers whether in defense or offense.


It doesn’t take balls to kills toddlers for profit. They should have the balls to NOT do that when so ordered.


First of all, i dont need a lesson on what a sociopath is from the likes of you.

Secondly, i ask you to kindly refrain from calling all soldiers killers of toddlers. Its not true, nor is it even relevant.

Third, you still seem to be missing my point. You claim to support what soldiers do ONLY when it suits your ideals. The soldier's job BY DEFINITION is to carry out someone elses wishes. If you have a problem with what they are doing, FINE. Take it up with the idiot in the white house. HE is their commander - and by definition he COMMANDS them to do what they do.

FOR the 2394823084th time, (in hopes that maybe you would understand someone else's viewpoint other than your own....) Soldiers are doing their jobs. That is what they signed on for. When you sign your name on that agreement, you agree to do WHAT YOU ARE TOLD or face dire consequences. Military law is NOT a democracy driven thing. It is a dictatorship where you do what you are told.

Do not blame the soldier if you turn on the television and dont like what you are seeing. blame the dumbasses people elect to public offices that tell the poor soldiers what to do.

By the way, if soldiers did whatever they wanted whenever they wanted there would be anarchy. a HUGE departure from your fantasized utopia without war. If you would wake up and join us in well hell, HUMAN KIND, you would see that your version of the world will probably never come to fruition. Unless you want to move to Switzerland. Hey maybe THATS a good idea.

[QUOTE = zanket] That sounds nice but really it is all just rationalization. Replace “soldier” with “gang member” and read it back to yourself. Do you respect gang members because they would do any job their leader puts before them? I’d like you to answer that one. [/QUOTE]

I might not LIKE gang members but i have met quite a few who have left me in awe of their dedication to their group (regardless of the illegal behavior) I dont see how gang members and soldiers could be compared correctly but if you MUST try and create some type of twisted correlation, i would relate gang members to adolf hitler. Even tho he is known as one of the most evil minds ever to walk this earth, listening to a speech of his, or seeing how he was able to move MILLIONS to do his bidding, THAT i think is admirable, and if his message was different it boggles the mind what he might have accomplished. Because of his skill and prowess as a leader, i do respect him, i might hate his guts, but i still respect him.
 
Maybe because he doesn’t want a bullet through his head? There are lots of reasons I can think of for why he wouldn’t point out that the soldiers are accomplices to the murder ordered by Bush.

zanket, i think right there you've stretched it out a little too far. let me guess, next you'll start speaking about black helicopters? his movie is apparently greatly opposed, supposedly (according to him) movie theater owners are being threatened not to show the movie. despite all that he is moving forward. i would think he would be the last person to back down for fear of a bullet.

lastly, i wonder how your views would hold up in iraq under saddam, or under the taliban. i'm sure you'd have a long few days of your life left there. but hey, you're not there, might as well enjoy your freedoms. people like you make me wonder if any sacrifices the soldiers make are worth it.
 
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