Should we really honour the modern soldier?

[zanket]

so tiassa, what about the modern soldiers in afghanistan? do they not deserve respect? then you're gonna say, but iraq is different. and then i'm gonna say, but soldiers don't get to pick where they go. the same type of people that are in iraq are also in afghanistan. yet nobody here is badmouthing them. hate the war, not the soldier.

The soldiers in Iraq are following illegal orders. Just because the prez says it's okay to steal doesn't make it legal to me. If one cop is ordered to protect the citenzry while another is ordered to fire into a crowd and does so, the second cop is still on the hook for the crime. Because the US now has the power to dictate the law worldwide, all US soldiers are heroes by definition (just as all opposing soldiers are insurgents; that is, illegal). But I won't respect them.

 

[Fallen Angel]

what about afghanistan??

 

[zanket]

Of course Afghanistan looks different because bin Laden is advertised to be there. But the US didn’t get rid of the Taliban to replace them with democracy. Afghanistan is still firmly a dictatorship, with Bush the new dictator. The warlords not only survived but thrive under Bush. And bin Laden is merely contained--not caught--until closer to election time, still able to carry out violence via messages sent by runners who pass through the porous cordon. Meanwhile Karzai, a former oil industry consultant, has given a big contract to his former employer, part of Bush Oil, to build an oil pipeline across the country. By now it should be obvious to the soldiers there that they are being used to make the rich richer. So no, neither can I respect those soldiers.

 

[zanket]

And while the revulsion shown our soldiers in the wake of Vietnam was inappropriate (they were conscripts), so also does our American warring culture have fits every time someone legitimately criticizes our armed forces.

How does being a conscript change anything? If a soldier has a choice between dropping high explosives on an elementary school or being imprisoned for disobeying an order, and chooses the former, I should give respect simply because the soldier is a conscript?

 

[Fallen Angel]

so zanket, you're saying we should not be in afghanistan then?? or is every valid reason for war going to be wrapped up in conspiracy theories? so we were wrong in getting rid of the taliban? the open supporter of the terrorists who attacked new york?

 

[cosmictraveler]

Throuhout history warriors have been a part of the countries defenses.Remember befor that young men were FORCED to go into battle or their families would be killed! Those were many years ago and even today in certain countries that type of thinking is still going on.

Today , in America, we have the freedom to choose if we want to enlist or not, which is a matter of wanting to defend ones country and a good job with many benifits. Many young people wouldn't have jobs if it weren't for the military which also helps young people in many ways other than just fighting. The military today, in America, teaches education, lets people travel , enforces discipline, and helps people in many other ways they may not have had in their economic conditions they lived in.

People in the military are not liked for some reasons by many until war is declared and they really protect a country from being taken over. Then everyone wants to be a "part" of the action and help out in any way they can. People should respect the military always, not just in wars but because they are there protecting everyone daily from harm. I salute those in the military for they are all trying to do their best for the countries they represent and honor. True, there's always going to be some in the military that "bend the rules" but then again look at who they are fighting, those people,terrorists, have no honor or codes to follow at all and will use children to kill others for them.

 

[RawThinkTank]

Every soldier when in another country should wear all the time a camera that takes a hi-resolution but low file sized picture every second. This is downloaded to headquarters every day. No one will ever do anything illegal then, it will be illegal to halt or damage this camera equipment.

Each and every order by the superior should be sound recorded and instantly transmitted without a return recorded signal it will be considered void.

Respect who serve in the country and not those involved in occupations. Its one thing to defend but to establish a military base in different parts of world, That should be considered as terrorism. May be USA want terrorist to exist and do all that in name of fight against terrorism.

 

[slotty]

Soldiers have enough crap to lunk around as it is. Your cameras would just be junked, "lost", or "malfunction" .I know. I served in the army,and thats the mind set. Would you wear one?

 

[RawThinkTank]

All cameras at sametime ?

 

[cosmictraveler]

Batteries are required for any camera, they wear out quickly so this isn't a realistic way to gain information. Soldiers go into battle against those who don't have rules or respact for the way fighting should be done. When an enemy has no rulles then you must engage them with that way of thinking do a certain degree or your military won't be able to fight on the same level as those their fighting. I said to a certain degree, not totally the same.

 

[Tiassa]

How does being a conscript change anything? If a soldier has a choice between dropping high explosives on an elementary school or being imprisoned for disobeying an order, and chooses the former, I should give respect simply because the soldier is a conscript?

I hold that there is a difference between the choice to join the military on any given day and the choice to join the military under duress of law.

As such, I leave broader leeway for poor judgment under duress of war. Not much, but some.

Additionally, when the war itself is unpopular ... well, holding the folks who are there under duress of law responsible for that unpopularity and making them a scapegoat seems to miss the point.

 

[zanket]

so zanket, you're saying we should not be in afghanistan then?? or is every valid reason for war going to be wrapped up in conspiracy theories? so we were wrong in getting rid of the taliban? the open supporter of the terrorists who attacked new york?

I think every dictatorship should be replaced with democracy. Not replaced with dictatorship. Otherwise New York will be attacked again.

 

[zanket]

Additionally, when the war itself is unpopular ... well, holding the folks who are there under duress of law responsible for that unpopularity and making them a scapegoat seems to miss the point.

No one forced them to drop bombs on kids. Duress of law is nothing compared to that.

 

[spaganya]

Ok, first of all, when it comes to modern day military, the men and women that serve our country do so with the full knowledge they are signing up for a life of dedication and service. They are asked to do for our country things that NEED to be done and must be done to preserve the wonderful way of life that the American people seem to often take for granted. For someone to just write off all soldiers as pawns or to fault them for the decisions they have no control over is infantile and misguided.

Secondly, although the consensus now is that the president might have misled the american public about the imperativeness of the need of a war in iraq, you again cannot fault the soldiers in following orders. As stated before, there is no democracy in the military. You do what you are told to preserve order in the ranks. That is why ranks exist. If everyone "voted" about everything in the military down to the last detail nothing would EVER get done. (look at congress if you need an example!)A soldier must put his trust in his command that they are making the best decision they can based on the intelligence given to them. Humans are fallible, they make mistakes and misjudgments. Monday morning quarterbacking isnt gonna change that fact. Everything always seems crystal clear after bad things happen and you are staring at the mess of an aftermath.

As for afghanistan, fallen angel, I believe that the reason there isnt as much of an uprising about us invading Afghanistan because everyone had 9/11 to look back on and say "see? thats something that needs to be avenged!" and the majority of our allies were behind us. The point that soldiers dont choose their station, they have to go where they are told is true. The soldier shouldnt be to blame for doing his job. the whole Afghanistan vs. Iraq on a moral standpoint is beside the point.

i thought this was supposed to be a discussion of whether we should honor the modern soldier. My answer to that question is emphatically YES. the soldier goes out and does what others shy away from doing, but things that need to be done. i compare soldiers abroad to police at home. often if asked a regular citizen would flinch away from picking up a gun and going to protect other peoples rights and property. but alas, its something that must be done. If its the decisions that have been made about how the military is being used, then again, that has nothing to do with the soldier. If you have a problem with the use of the military, get off your butt, write your congressmen and senators, go vote, exercise your rights. But dont shoot the messenger.

Soldiers enforce and protect the law and america's interests, not create policies. Attack the politician's motives and decisions if you find yourself so compelled.

 

[zanket]

I can’t respect stealing, even if that is what NEEDS be done to preserve the wonderful American way of life. Faulting soldiers for dropping bombs on kids is not infantile. If I’m responsible for dropping the bomb and I see that the target is an elementary school full of kids, I don’t need to wait for Monday-morning quarterbacking. This mistake is crystal clear immediately.

The fact is that the US is the world’s bully, having killed millions of innocent people since WWII. The US continues to oppress and torture people. Your sentiment only condones and promotes what is obviously wrong by diluting it in patriotism and duty. The soldier has a brain. If they do what is obviously wrong then they deserve disrespect.

Like police, soldiers are responsible for carrying out only the orders that serve & protect the public. Those in Iraq and Afghanistan do not serve me. They offend me rather than defend me. It is obvious that they--by blindly following the orders of a person widely recognized to be a megalomaniac--make me less safe.

 

[zanket]

BTW, I don’t expect soldiers to figure this out before the facts are in. Afghanistan may have seemed a worthy war at first, but now it is a sham. Soldiers have access to the Internet and news during R&R. They can read about the overwhelming consensus condemning Bush’s foreign policy. They can read about the people the US tortured to death. Then I expect them to quit the war and serve time in prison rather than continue to execute civilians just to save their own skin.

 

[spaganya]

zanket, i would like to know what soldier just goes around dropping bombs on elementary schools - really, what are you basing THAT statement on? also, the US is not the world's bully but yet the world's peacekeeper. I cant even begin to think of how many times other countries have come to us begging for us to help them in their time of need. America, like every other country has its faults, no one has figured out how to make a utopia, but why continue to criticize the same government that gives you the right to speak your mind in the first place? I would like to know what atrocities the soldiers are commiting that make you think that modern soldiers dont deserve respect? Also, i am sure you will bring up the whole prison scandal in iraq, and compared to what other countries do to people the interrogate, what was done there is lightweight. Every country does things you only think other countries do. What separates the men from the dogs are the ones that hold the truly morally wrong accountable for their actions. I am sure that if one of your family members or close friends were one of the ones directly affected by the recent conflicts you would feel differently. It seems to me you are making statements based on a point of view that is removed from the actual happenings and skewed information?

 

[zanket]

zanket, i would like to know what soldier just goes around dropping bombs on elementary schools - really, what are you basing THAT statement on?

Watch any Vietnam documentary and in a span of a few minutes you’ll see US soldiers dropping hundreds of high explosives on farming communities. Our warplanes went up and down valleys dropping bombs. The US killed an estimated 2 million civilians, so many that an accurate count is practically impossible. Such scale of death took a concerted effort by all soldiers throughout the war.

also, the US is not the world's bully but yet the world's peacekeeper.

Then why did it subvert democracy in Iran and Chile? Why did it arm both Iran and Iraq in their war? Why does it give billions annually to Israel, which uses the money to kill loads of Palestinian civilians and summarily (without compensation) bulldoze down their houses to make way for Jewish settlers? And I could go on. No, the US is demonstrably the world’s warmonger, not peacekeeper.

I cant even begin to think of how many times other countries have come to us begging for us to help them in their time of need.

Irrelevant. People go to the mob for loans even though they’re afraid of the mob.

America, like every other country has its faults, no one has figured out how to make a utopia,

Not killing millions of innocent people would be a simple start toward that.

but why continue to criticize the same government that gives you the right to speak your mind in the first place?

I should not use the right to criticize when my government is up to no good? How could I respect myself?

I would like to know what atrocities the soldiers are commiting that make you think that modern soldiers dont deserve respect?

They are creating new dictatorships in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not only will this result in untold misery, but also it foments terrorism, making me less safe.

Also, i am sure you will bring up the whole prison scandal in iraq, and compared to what other countries do to people the interrogate, what was done there is lightweight.

What other countries do is irrelevant. Scandal is glossing over the matter. We tortured people to death.

What separates the men from the dogs are the ones that hold the truly morally wrong accountable for their actions.

Only a handful of scapegoats will be held accountable for the torture. That is already apparent.

I am sure that if one of your family members or close friends were one of the ones directly affected by the recent conflicts you would feel differently.

Why would I want someone who didn’t harm me to pay for that?

It seems to me you are making statements based on a point of view that is removed from the actual happenings and skewed information?

No, my info is well supported.

 

[zanket]

This comic depicts US foreign policy in a nutshell. How can I respect the soldiers who make it possible by blindingly following orders?

 

[spaganya]

zanket, Vietnam was a war fought not just by uniformed soldiers but of people in civilian clothes as well, women and children and the like. The view of people being innocent gets a bit grey when you look back at some of the things that supposed "innocents" did in the war. For instance, in a book by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman about military actions in war, told of a seemingly innocent woman standing in a field of rice, planting, and lying all around her were downed hueys. Another helo came by and noticed the downed helos and was wondering why first the woman was planting rice in the middle of an obvious battlefield, then he figured out when another helo got shot infront of him that the woman was infact signaling to the VC which the direction the helos were coming so they could shoot them down by turning in their direction when she "planted". They ended up having to bomb the field to make sure none of the other helos got shot down. That woman may have been just a citizen, but she was still a combatant.
i could go on with my examples.
i still think your facts are skewed, i am a huge history buff and cannot recall any mass murders in vietnam done by americans. maybe i am wrong, but your arguments dont seem valid to me.
maybe we simply have differing views that are too far detached from each other.