Should man rely on himself or God?

Enmos,

If memory serves me right God told Adam that the forbidden fruit would kill them. The snake told Eve that God was lying and that they wouldn't die.
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They did die.

''wages of sin = death
gift of God = eternal life.''

There is a difference.
Their souls did not return to God, and as a result, neither did their off-spring.

Looks to me as if the snake was right and God was indeed lying.
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Looks to me as the snake tricked them by not telling them what was meant by death.

He did punish them however, in the most childish manner I might add.
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Depends how you see it.

-- You still didn't answer my question about the tree of knowledge of good and evil by the way. What was it for? What were the effects of the fruit of someone were to eat from it?
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What makes you think it was an actual tree, and an actual fruit?

And what's with the cursing of the snake? If it really was Satan disguised as a snake why did God curse the snakes?
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To teach him a valuable lesson?
Who knows?
But whatever God does, He does in complete knowledge and overstanding.

jan.
 
Jan, you are just saying, with no showing.

You make up 'God' and then even go on to speak for the Guy.
 
Jan Ardena said:
They did die.

''wages of sin = death
gift of God = eternal life.''

There is a difference.
Their souls did not return to God, and as a result, neither did their off-spring.
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Eventually, yes. But they were going to anyway. Unless they would have eaten from the tree of life. But the situation, as it was when God warned them about eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, did not change.
It was really a blessing by the way. Imagine us today when no one would have ever died..

Jan Ardena said:
Looks to me as the snake tricked them by not telling them what was meant by death.
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Jan Ardena said:
Depends how you see it.
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I can't reply to these because my replies would hinge on your answer to the tree question.

Jan Ardena said:
What makes you think it was an actual tree, and an actual fruit?
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I have no reason to think it wasn't a real tree (I'm taking the story for granted for the sake of discussion).
If you think the whole story is just symbolism could you explain it to me?

Jan Ardena said:
To teach him a valuable lesson?
Who knows?
But whatever God does, He does in complete knowledge and overstanding.
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You misunderstand. Satan was posing as a snake. So it wasn't an actual snake that convinced Eve to eat the fruit.
Yet God punished the snakes anyway..
 
Jan Ardena said:
We're discussing scriptural text.
I haven't made anything up.
Unlike you who says anything to feel good.

jan.
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Humans wrote the scriptures; God never said a word.

Go on then, discussing fictional wishes. Don't mind me. Mind the good wishes.
 
SciWriter said:
Humans wrote the scriptures; God never said a word.

Go on then, discussing fictional wishes. Don't mind me. Mind the good wishes.
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Ideally we would first have to establish that what's written in the bible is factual before discussing the details. But that's kind of out of the question ;)
 
SciWriter said:
Humans wrote the scriptures; God never said a word.

Go on then, discussing fictional wishes. Don't mind me. Mind the good wishes.
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Your reasoning;

God doesn't exist, therefore God never said a word.

That's not debate or discussion material.
It's your opinion, which you are entitled to have.
Do you understand?

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Your reasoning;

God doesn't exist, therefore God never said a word.

That's not debate or discussion material.
It's your opinion, which you are entitled to have.
Do you understand?

jan.
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It's entitled because you haven't shown it; whereas, I have shown the opposite, which you cannot bear to get into, since it utilizes the known. You'd rather stick with 'faith', which definition evens admits the unknown is not known, but unknown; so, you have no 'known'. I guess you like to pretend.
 
Enmos,

The term ''death'' is context dependant.
From God's perspective, to whom the souls belong, it
means the soul does not return to him.

From the materialist perspective (serpent) it means death of the
material body.

One is a spiritual perspective
the other is a material perspective.

The tree, and the fruit, signifies mixing with another race of
knowledgeable beings. As everyone knows you can't gain knowledge from
eating an apple.

jan.
 
Now the Bible's supposedly plain text for the common man has to be symbolically interpreted by experts? This "making up" business gets better (worse) all the time.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Enmos,

The term ''death'' is context dependant.
From God's perspective, to whom the souls belong, it
means the soul does not return to him.

From the materialist perspective (serpent) it means death of the
material body.

One is a spiritual perspective
the other is a material perspective.

The tree, and the fruit, signifies mixing with another race of
knowledgeable beings. As everyone knows you can't gain knowledge from
eating an apple.

jan.
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I don't know where you get that from. The story seems pretty straight forward to me.

Genesis
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
 
SciWriter said:
Now the Bible's supposedly plain text for the common man has to be symbolically interpreted by experts? This "making up" business gets better (worse) all the time.
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The term ''family tree'' has always been used to denote linage.
And the term ''fruit'' has been used to denote off-spring.

This is the case in the language of hebrew, the original language of the OT.

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
The term ''family tree'' has always been used to denote linage.
And the term ''fruit'' has been used to denote off-spring.

This is the case in the language of hebrew, the original language of the OT.

jan.
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Well, that figures, since humans invented the scriptures. They even modeled 'God' after the strict family father figure of old. Just a bunch of old Jewish legends, really, and amalgamation of all the old Jewish Gods rolled into a new one, Jehovah.

And the Guy really sent a plague of locusts? Or is some symbolist changing it to mean something else?

And about the 'immutable' forms? Does that now mean mutable?
 
Jan Ardena said:
The term ''family tree'' has always been used to denote linage.
And the term ''fruit'' has been used to denote off-spring.

This is the case in the language of hebrew, the original language of the OT.

jan.
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I don't see the term "family tree" mentioned anywhere.
Also, I think the garden contained all sorts of fruiting trees all of which could be eaten from.
In what way was this one tree special and why isn't that mentioned?
If eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil signifies having sex with "another race of knowledgeable beings" then what does eating the fruit of the tree of life signify?
By the way, according to the story Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from the tree of live at all times (up until God caught them of course). It strikes me as particularly odd that they wouldn't have eaten from it.
 
Jan,

can you tell us exactly what in Genesis is factual and what is symbolic?
 
Enmos said:
I don't see the term "family tree" mentioned anywhere.
Also, I think the garden contained all sorts of fruiting trees all of which could be eaten from.
In what way was this one tree special and why isn't that mentioned?
If eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil signifies having sex with "another race of knowledgeable beings" then what does eating the fruit of the tree of life signify?
By the way, according to the story Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from the tree of live at all times (up until God caught them of course). It strikes me as particularly odd that they wouldn't have eaten from it.
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It's an issue of language Enmos.
I suggest you do a little more study on the matter.
You'll find the bible alot more interesting.

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
As everyone knows you can't gain knowledge from
eating an apple.
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This is the religious equivalent of watching a Superman film and complaining that it's inaccurate because it's set in 1987 and there's a 1993-model Ford in the background.
:rolleyes:
 
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