Should it be illegal for women to smoke while they are pregnent?

[Bells]

So only women can decide there ready for kids and the partner can either step up or get out?

Umm.. yeah..

You can't decide for her if she smokes or not. Just as she cannot decide for you if you wank or not while trying to fall pregnant, thereby losing that prime sperm potential.

Your partner is an adult. Maybe you should start treating her like one instead of imposing rules and regulations about what she is and is not allowed to do because of your say so? Just maybe?

A Guy is just surposed to sit around till SHE decides she is ready to actually show that even though she has said for 3 years shes going to quit and the Guy is just surposed to have endless patients? I'm just wondering.

If the guy doesn't like the wait, the guy can show himself the door and close it on his way out..

You cannot dictate what she does and does not do.

Also wondering how much patients you would have if your partner was smoking in the car with your child? Or giving your child alcohol or anything else? Smoking or drinking or doing drugs while TRYING to get pregant is no different.

Again, that is a decision each person makes for themselves. In Australia for example, it is illegal to ply one's children with alcohol before they are of legal age to drink. In some States, it is also illegal to smoke in the car with children in it, due to the damage it does. Again, that is something for people to decide whether they do it or not.

I'll put it this way. I have two children. If at any time my husband turned around and told me I was not allowed to drink or smoke while "trying", the answer would have been to 'bugger off'.


And using sex to get what you want?

Geez..

If you acidently fall pregnant and want an abortion that's one thing but if you decide you are having the child (or your deliberately trying) then you have to accept that your that child's environment for 10 months and possibly its food source for another 2 yearsa and you have a responcibility to act acordingly.

Yes. But that is for each individual to decide. Not for partners to withhold sex until he gets his way.

I'm not using sex as a tool, if she doesn't quit she doesn't get kids.

That is using it as a "tool".

To correct that, if she does not quit, she can have children with another man who won't act like a bit of a domineering arse about what she does with her body in preparation for pregnancy.

Why is it so horible to have expectations of your partner before you have children in THERE best interests?

There are expectations and then there is:

"I won't let my partner smoke"...​

And then:


Umm she doesn't quit she doesnt get sex?

If your partner was unemployed wouldn't you expect him to have a job before you tried for kids?

No.

I would expect him to do what is right for himself without my telling him what he was meant to do. There is a difference. I wouldn't leave him or withhold sex if he didn't go out and try and get a job, for example.. I mean honestly...

Wouldn't you expect him to help raise the child?

I would like him to help raise the children and expect him to. But I wouldn't order him to, nor would I withhold sex until he did it.

If its illegal to smoke in a car with children because its an enclosed space how much more enclosed is a body? The child can't open a window. The "threat" isn't about not getting sex, it's about not getting kids and losing me.

A good point. But don't you think your partner is adult enough to make that determination for herself without you ordering her to or withholding sex until she complies to your orders in the meantime?

 

[Asguard]

Once again we both have expectations of eachother before we started trying. Those she has of me are irelivent to this thread because its about smoking while pregnant. As for the conquences they are quite simple, im not going to wait forever for her to quit. If that's "being an arse" quite frankly I don't care, I DO concider smoking while pregnant to be child abuse because of the harm it causes, the same with alcohol. I'm all for women's rights to abortion but once you make that choice of your own free will you have certain responcibilities. Its NOT just your body anymore. The number of babies born hooked on narcotics (not the same as needing narloxone for the opiods administered during the birth), with FAS or with the effects of smoking is discusing. It shows a compleatly selfish attitude. Our it this way, if a dad is a dead beat which requires government action for refusing to pay for a child concived during a once off fling then what is a women who CHOSES to have a child (however its concived its still a choice) and then Poisons the very environment that child relies on? And what is a partner who lets her do that and doesn't do anything to stop it?. Hell under SA law aparently I am guilty of murder if I don't stop my partner walking in front of a car because there is a legal duty of care for your spouse, yet to show the same duty of care to an unborn child is being an arse bells? Fine I'm happy to be an arse then

 

[Bells]

Once again we both have expectations of eachother before we started trying. Those she has of me are irelivent to this thread because its about smoking while pregnant. As for the conquences they are quite simple, im not going to wait forever for her to quit. If that's "being an arse" quite frankly I don't care, I DO concider smoking while pregnant to be child abuse because of the harm it causes, the same with alcohol. I'm all for women's rights to abortion but once you make that choice of your own free will you have certain responcibilities. Its NOT just your body anymore. The number of babies born hooked on narcotics (not the same as needing narloxone for the opiods administered during the birth), with FAS or with the effects of smoking is discusing. It shows a compleatly selfish attitude. Our it this way, if a dad is a dead beat which requires government action for refusing to pay for a child concived during a once off fling then what is a women who CHOSES to have a child (however its concived its still a choice) and then Poisons the very environment that child relies on? And what is a partner who lets her do that and doesn't do anything to stop it?. Hell under SA law aparently I am guilty of murder if I don't stop my partner walking in front of a car because there is a legal duty of care for your spouse, yet to show the same duty of care to an unborn child is being an arse bells? Fine I'm happy to be an arse then

You completely misunderstood my post.

Your partner is an adult and I am sure that when the time is right for her, she will stop smoking. But that is her decision to make. You cannot force someone to do something or set conditions such as no sex if you don't stop smoking.

She's an adult. Treat her like one and let her do the right thing.

 

[Asguard]

Sure and if we weren't trying to have children you would be apsolutly correct, it would be her decision if and when to quit. But we are and the child comes first. Hell I know how hard it is to quit but women who smoke while pregnant are no better than the parents of that Indonesian toddler.

Once again sure she is an adult but when your actions effect more than just yourself it becomes a matter for both partners. If I had the kid in the car and went hooning around I would be (in her own words) "dead". No if buts or maybes.

The fact that currently "women's right" trumps the rights of the child doesn't makes it morally right or even the way the law will be in the future. I would like to see women who give birth to drug adicted children charged with child abuse because there is no excuse. Abortion is widly available so "I had no choice" is no excuse. They are chosing to have that child. They are also chosing to be selfish and abusive, no different from a parent who can't be bothered to feed the child. That's also imposing a requirement on someone, to bad, child comes first

 

[Bells]

Sure and if we weren't trying to have children you would be apsolutly correct, it would be her decision if and when to quit. But we are and the child comes first. Hell I know how hard it is to quit but women who smoke while pregnant are no better than the parents of that Indonesian toddler.

You're still not getting it.

It is her decision to quit. Not yours for her.

Once again sure she is an adult but when your actions effect more than just yourself it becomes a matter for both partners.

Let me see if I get this right..

She is an adult up to the point where her actions affect someone else, whereupon you will then step in and be the adult for her and make her decisions for her, about whether she smokes or not and what she eats?


There is no "but". She is either an adult or not. If she is an adult then really, you cannot control or demand such things. It really is that simple.

If I had the kid in the car and went hooning around I would be (in her own words) "dead". No if buts or maybes.

She would kill you if you drove at high speed and endangered all motorists who came near you as you drag raced, etc, down the road with your child in the car? Hooning is illegal. One would hope you would not take up such a practice at all..

But that is not the same as you controlling what she ingests and using sex as a means of that control.

The fact that currently "women's right" trumps the rights of the child doesn't makes it morally right or even the way the law will be in the future.

Regardless of that, your rights do not trump hers..

Do you understand now?

I would like to see women who give birth to drug adicted children charged with child abuse because there is no excuse. Abortion is widly available so "I had no choice" is no excuse. They are chosing to have that child.

Lets say a drug addict is raped, and many are while they are stoned, and the child is born with an addiction to drugs. You'd see her charged with child abuse because she did not have an abortion, for example?

They are also chosing to be selfish and abusive, no different from a parent who can't be bothered to feed the child.

And you telling your partner that if she doesn't stop smoking and starts eating properly, she won't be having children (at least with you) and she won't be getting any sex is not selfish and abusive at all? You don't find that controlling?

That's also imposing a requirement on someone, to bad, child comes first

Wow..

 

[universaldistress]

Should it be illegal for women to smoke while they are pregnent?

Damn right. Alcohol, drugs. Anything that has been proven to harm babies.

 

[Orleander]

Sure and if we weren't trying to have children you would be apsolutly correct, it would be her decision if and when to quit....

but now it isn't her decision, its yours. interesting. I'm surprised to find you this controlling of your spouse. You just never seemed the type.

 

[Orleander]

Should it be illegal for women to smoke while they are pregnent?

Damn right. Alcohol, drugs. Anything that has been proven to harm babies.

and what effect do these things have on a man's sperm?

 

[Asguard]

Bells love your cirular logic, this thread asks if it should be illegal Ans your basically arguing its okay because its NOT currently illegal. I didn't realise you were such a legal conservative, do you think we shouldn't have Parliament either because if something isn't currently illegal it should never change? What about the flip side? Was homosexuality evil before the law changed and okay the next day just because the law said so? The law can never be wrong?

Anyway you work in child protection right? How many FAS and drug adicted babies have you delt with? Do YOU think there shouldn't be no pennelties for those women because the law currently thinks "women's rights" means the right to destroy the child they CHOSE's life? What's worse bells? Doing drugs in same house as a baby or doing it in the same body?

 

[universaldistress]

and what effect do these things have on a man's sperm?

Only a viable sperm can reach the egg. Safety in numbers.

I think women who abuse babies in the womb should be either forced to have an abortion of have the child taken at birth.

 

[Bells]

Bells love your cirular logic, this thread asks if it should be illegal Ans your basically arguing its okay because its NOT currently illegal.

I am saying it should not be illegal.

Plain and simple.

I also think that women are more than capable of being responsible without having men telling them what they can and cannot ingest, or more to the point, setting down conditions and saying that the woman is an adult "but"..

I didn't realise you were such a legal conservative, do you think we shouldn't have Parliament either because if something isn't currently illegal it should never change? What about the flip side? Was homosexuality evil before the law changed and okay the next day just because the law said so? The law can never be wrong?

What in the hell are you on about?

Anyway you work in child protection right?

Nope.

How many FAS and drug adicted babies have you delt with? Do YOU think there shouldn't be no pennelties for those women because the law currently thinks "women's rights" means the right to destroy the child they CHOSE's life?

No, I do not.

Because it would be insane to police and also highly unethical. As one poster commented earlier on, if you are going to go to that extreme, then it would result in the State control every aspect of the woman's life as soon as she becomes pregnant - from what she ate and drank, to her smoking habits, to what medication or drugs she used. For example, a woman could not know she was pregnant (and many do not until they go into labour) and continue to live her life as she was before and then find herself being charged for having harmed the child.. Or not knowing that processed food like ham can harm the child and being charged as a result, or even cheese.. She may have misread the label and could be charged for it..

What's worse bells? Doing drugs in same house as a baby or doing it in the same body?

I would say both are bad for the body, be it the mother's or the child's..

What you seem to fail to grasp is that you have pretty much come out and said that your partner is an adult up to when you decide to have a baby, where you then take over the decision making process about what she is allowed to ingest and not allowed to ingest and if she goes against your wishes, you withhold sex.. I should not have to point out how patronising you sound and how controlling you sound, should I?

 

[Asguard]

Yes how dare you have to actually take responcibility for your choices, I mean what if after its born your actually expected to feed it and pay for it. How dare anyone impose on you like that

Simple, you want to drink, smoke and shoot up don't have children.

 

[Asguard]

Lets see, who deserves protection, women who want to drink or children who have to spend the rest of there lives dealing with this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndrome

Actually read it bells and show me how you think your right to have a drink is greater than the right of children to be born free of this. Personally I would love to see the women who cause this strung up. They are no better than any other child abuser.

You think I'm an arse because I put the welfare of the child above the "rights" of the women. You know you sound like those complaining about being forced to pay for children. I belive your comment in that thread was along the lines of you did it take responcibility for it, you don't want to do that keep your pants zipped up. The exact same thing applies here, if you don't want to have to think about someone else then keep your legs shut or have an abortion. You chose to have kids then take responcibility. You can't, I have no problem with the courts penelising you for it. Sure the police can't police it but the child should be able to seek recompense for her apsolute stupidity and selfishness, including having her thrown in jail with the rest of the child abusers. the fair thing to do would be to give them the same life sentance that there stupidity and selfishness has given to the child with FAS.

 

[Orleander]

...I should not have to point out how patronising you sound and how controlling you sound, should I?

apparently. But he'll deny it. :bugeye:

Asguard, do you even wonder if the threat is harmful to your relationship?

 

[Bells]

Yes how dare you have to actually take responcibility for your choices, I mean what if after its born your actually expected to feed it and pay for it. How dare anyone impose on you like that

Simple, you want to drink, smoke and shoot up don't have children.

No Asguard.

How dare YOU impose upon others because you do not think they are adult enough to make the right decision without you.

Do you understand the difference?

Your partner is an adult and I am sure would do everything to ensure her child's safety. And yet for some reason, you appear to be arguing that you do not think she is adult enough to be responsible.

Lets see, who deserves protection, women who want to drink or children who have to spend the rest of there lives dealing with this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndrome

I know about FAS.

Why do you think that your partner is not responsible enough to not drink while pregnant or while you are trying and the same goes with smoking?

And just so you know, doctors normally say you can drink while pregnant... like a glass of wine for a special occasion for example.

Actually read it bells and show me how you think your right to have a drink is greater than the right of children to be born free of this. Personally I would love to see the women who cause this strung up. They are no better than any other child abuser.

Hmmm...

What about the woman who has a few drinks and doesn't know she's pregnant or hasn't found out yet or noticed that she is 'late' yet? Since many women don't plan to get pregnant and sometimes yes, contraception does fail, what of those women?

Ban them from consuming alcohol once they are of fertile age? Or when they become sexually active? You know, just in case? Or would you advocate doing random pregnancy tests on women who have an alcohol reading or are found smoking?

You think I'm an arse because I put the welfare of the child above the "rights" of the women.

No I think you're being an arse because you don't seem to trust your partner to do the right thing and thus try to control everything she ingests in case she falls pregnant with your offspring because you seem to believe she is an adult but do not think she is adult enough to do the right thing, so you are being the adult for her.

You know you sound like those complaining about being forced to pay for children. I belive your comment in that thread was along the lines of you did it take responcibility for it, you don't want to do that keep your pants zipped up.

Huh?

The exact same thing applies here, if you don't want to have to think about someone else then keep your legs shut or have an abortion.

Err so if a woman discovered she was pregnant after she realised she'd missed her period and had had a glass of wine and a smoke the night before, she should immediately abort?

You chose to have kids then take responcibility.

I see.

So why do you have to take responsibility for your partner because you seem to think that she is incapable of doing the right thing or only adult up to the point where she has to take responsibility for a child so you have to step up and be responsible for her?

You can't, I have no problem with the courts penelising you for it.

Mmmmm..

Sure the police can't police it but the child should be able to seek recompense for her apsolute stupidity and selfishness, including having her thrown in jail with the rest of the child abusers.

I can see the headline now..

"Child sues mother for not having an abortion when she had a glass of wine before she knew she was pregnant"..

Do you think your partner is stupid and selfish? You know, since you said that:

"Once again sure she is an adult but when your actions effect more than just yourself it becomes a matter for both partners."​

Are you advocating compulsory abortions for any woman who has drunk alcohol or smoked even before she discovered she was pregnant or jail time for them because you view them as being child abusers?

the fair thing to do would be to give them the same life sentance that there stupidity and selfishness has given to the child with FAS.

Slight obsession with FAS there?

No, I do not think it would be fair to imprison women who may have ingested tobacco or alcohol before they even knew they were pregnant, and some women simply do not know or do not have the ability to know (extreme poverty in some parts of the world means women are uneducated and have no access to health care or even know how to read to learn about FAS or what damage smoking can do to a child) about the dangers of FAS or smoking while pregnant. Instead of mandatory jail time because the woman is selfish in your opinion, how about you educate instead of control.. You know.. just saying..

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Ban them from consuming alcohol once they are of fertile age? Or when they become sexually active? You know, just in case? Or would you advocate doing random pregnancy tests on women who have an alcohol reading or are found smoking?

Oh they can just declare the womb a ward of the State and be done with it.

 

[Asguard]

I gather you protest seatbelt laws? Laws which ban smoking in cars? Hell all laws are unnecessary because people people are adults and shouldn't steal or kill without laws. Oh right, if that were true then the lawyers would be out of buiness because there wouldn't be anything for them to do? Still got a job bells?

Maybe its just womb which are sensible? No that's not right because if it was no child would be born drug adicted or with FAS.

Do you surport seat belt laws bells? They impose a burden on you the indervidual without protecting anyone else. These sorts of laws on the other hand are specifically aimed at child protection. Hell half the country had SBS banned because it was a "danger to children" but your arguing that allowing women tl drink, smoke and shoot up is more important than the harm it causes to the life of another?.

 

[Orleander]

I gather you protest seatbelt laws? Laws which ban smoking in cars? Hell all laws are unnecessary because people people are adults and shouldn't steal or kill without laws. Oh right, if that were true then the lawyers would be out of buiness because there wouldn't be anything for them to do? Still got a job bells?

Maybe its just womb which are sensible? No that's not right because if it was no child would be born drug adicted or with FAS.

Do you surport seat belt laws bells? They impose a burden on you the indervidual without protecting anyone else. These sorts of laws on the other hand are specifically aimed at child protection. Hell half the country had SBS banned because it was a "danger to children" but your arguing that allowing women tl drink, smoke and shoot up is more important than the harm it causes to the life of another?.

are you kidding? Are you comparing the rules for your wife to state law?

 

[Ellie]

Simple, you want to drink, smoke and shoot up don't have children.

It isnt that simple. People with addictions who cannot quit them always quit "tomorrow" and when they do slip back it will "be the last time". Unfortunately every other day is the last time. It is unfortunate for the child but if a woman is smoking, drinking or doing drugs while pregnant (varying degrees of what is more toxic there) it is highly doubtful the person is going to change after the child is born and become a good mother. Although if a woman smokes does not mean she is by defaul going to be a bad mother in the future but these days there is really no excuses for it because when that kid comes out, if the mother smokes daily, that baby will be jonesing for a smoke (nicotine in system) and it will be very hard on the kid for awhile at least and it is suffering for a few days until the body loses memory of the nicotine. I am pretty sure, though i dont know for sure, my mother smoked during pregnancy and it was not an issue in those days '70's (DOB '78) like today. I dont have any recollection of being addicted although people called me colic, sure i guess i wanted a cigarette.

I guess it is one reason for "born to lose" tattoos too. Some kids grow up fine in spite of weaknesses of their parents though and sometimes out of a matter of principal. Then it becomes are there lasting physical or mental effects from the substance abuse. I always look at it as the parent is human and makes mistakes so if that is the case it is a bit of tough luck not having "good" parents but then you cant make that an excuse for being a bad person\failure\addict either because really your weaknesses are your own doing just like, most likely, your parents weaknesses were. What can you do?

Bear in mind that the best way to stop is cut things out altogether but some people may slip and if a woman smokes a cigarette at some point it isnt like the end of the world or even has a drink but it is not good, i dont think anyway to have say one drink while pregnant, i really dont know, never looked into it.

Fetal alcohol syndrome would be from a more severe alcoholic mother as well.

From a practical standpoint, the responsibility is all on the mother but then that is not realistic either. Most\many mothers are young late teens\early 20's and if the father is not making good decisions that effects the female with stress, anxiety, feelings of hopelessness. Then if the female tries to cut the looser loose he chases after them instead of backing off like a normal person should do.

All cases are different so not painting with a broad brush here.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@Bells

You should give Asguard the list of herbs to avoid that can impact a pregnancy. It would be interesting to know if he would include them in the laws.