Who said they weren't?
We are all forced to read history books....
We are all forced to read history books....
Should children be punished for their parents sins and crimes?
- Thread starter Greatest I am
- Start date
hmm, this is also relative. one can be guilty of indirect support. so yes, there can be collective guilt at times depending on the context.
as far as particular actions, that is obvious. for instance, one who commits a murder is obviously more guilty than one that witnesses it but does nothing if they can such as report it etc. a bystander can be guilty too but in a different way.
of course, but there can be collective guilt. it just needs a majority or if the majority condone something. that's it.
and no, that is not a direct example of an accomplice to a crime. for instance if one passes by a yard and sees an abused animal and they don't report it, that is not considered an accomplice under the law. but they are guilty in the moral sense or indirectly by not taking action that they could. in a real sense, i guess one could say that is also an accomplice in a broader context but i would consider that more of collective guilt.
an accomplice is one that aids, abets, or procures for the criminal or has knowledge beforehand but does nothing to try to stop it, even though they may not pull the trigger, so to speak.
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We should define what is collective guilt.
I understand that,
If in ten people nine are thieves and not know who is innocent
you can not punish all ten because it means you have one innocent convicted.
or not all Gypsies are thieves
or not all Muslims are to blame for terrorist attacks
or not all Germans are to blame for the Holocaust
or not all Christians are to blame for the Inquisition
etc ... etc ...
I understand that,
If in ten people nine are thieves and not know who is innocent
you can not punish all ten because it means you have one innocent convicted.
or not all Gypsies are thieves
or not all Muslims are to blame for terrorist attacks
or not all Germans are to blame for the Holocaust
or not all Christians are to blame for the Inquisition
etc ... etc ...
the idea of collective guilt does not necessarily mean punishment.
also, when people go to war, of course not everyone is guilty in either country.
Yes, you're right can be a moral guilt.
iniquity
1. lack of justice or righteousness; wickedness; injustice
2. a wicked act; sin
this verse does NOT say god punishes children for the deeds of their parents..
it just the opposite..
here is another version..
New International Version
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
try again..(did anyone actually read that verse?)
IF??? this is an opinion based on what?
you said you grew up in a religious environment..i am surprised you did not catch the miss interpretation he seriously missed..
that applies to BOTH theist and atheist!
i can't stand you christians, seriously for so many reasons. you are also the most self-centered thinking you are the most important etc. talk about a squeaky wheel. the constant pretense and purposeful obtusery. this is really getting annoying. that is not the only scripture in the bible AND i was not addressing that scripture specifically. this whole thread is dealing with the 'children punished for parents sins and crimes!!!'
i was addressing the idea that children or descendants are punished for the crimes of their predessors or parents.
read!
and what do you think "EVERYONE" stands for?! geezus, that's annoying.
yes, greatest i am either didn't read the scripture or he did not comprehend it because it was just the opposite of the point he was supposedly making.
there are some contradictory verses but that's not surprising. those who wrote it could write anything they want.
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i make my own claims, i DO NOT speak for all christians! when are you going to get that birch!
duh..so bring some..
i was refering to the IF, so IF you don't KNOW what is in there,why dont you look it up (try bible gateway, good place to get quotes from bible..
then when you post you don't have to use 'IF it says' because you will KNOW what it says..(takes seconds to find verses..)
AND a scripture was referenced to support that topic..
the scripture that was referenced does not say what the OP said it said..
my point is why didn't anyone else see that?
you do not have to be theist or atheist to read that scripture as posted to see it did not..
thats my point..
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Birch
Not bad at all.
Regards
DL
Not bad at all.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
what is it you don't get, i also find you annoying? lol. i swear, dealing with christians is like being spun in a web but with the pretense of honesty. i pity those who don't can't see through it or don't have strong critical faculties. it's kind of revolting how narcissistic christians are.
FOR THE SECOND TIME, if you read the post, i was addressing the topic and if you think that verse is the only one then you are dishonest! there are verses that confirm the topic. are you saying otherwise? is that your lame attempt by ignoring that? I ALSO STATED THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT CONTRADICTORY VERSES AND THAT EVERYONE IS GUILTY OF SOME TYPE OF 'SIN'.
yes, i think christians are annoying, if that makes me a bigot so be it. i think clowns are annoying, i guess that makes me a bigot of clowns.
what is your problem? your brain, perhaps??!
i clearly saw that the scripture referenced did not support it but i just assumed that the topic starter did that on purpose to show differing or contradictory posts. i always thought that 'greatest i am' has theistic leanings anyways. it still does not invalidate the topic as there are scriptures that support it. what is so surreal is you are up in arms AS IF those scriptures do not exist. that seems to be a disingenuous outrage in light of that fact anyways. you are the christian, YOU SHOULD KNOW THOSE SCRIPTURES EXIST.
also, why is it that non-christians are the ones that have to 'bring' the scripture? oh yes, of course. you needed me to bring the scripture because you didn't know of any. classic.
you want to defend the bible but say you aren't religious, then get upset that anything negative is said about this hebrew god concept.
i think christians greatest strength is by confusion or confusing the matter.
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Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Yes I know but read with the sentence right above it gives it the slant I wanted.
It may be my use of the language but you are the first not to understand what I meant.
Deuteronomy 24
16The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Numbers 14:18
18 ‘The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’
The point is is that scriptures are contradicting themselves and the moral position goes against what God is doing.
Regards
DL
uf..
so does a few others..
there ya go again..credit where credit is due bub..
it should be..
get it right..
ok..
1, i agree'd with you when you said everyone is guilty of sin..why are you shouting that??
2,if you read my post, you will see i never said there wasn't any other verses..IN fact i challenged you to find another verse that says what the OP wanted it to say..
and i quote..
juvenile..
i don't appreciate any of your laziness or that you obviously missed he was making a contradictory point. not very good it's true but if you had taken the time, you would have seen it.
you only saw what you wanted to see. WOW, what a reaction for someone who claims they aren't religious. really 'bible' sensitive, aren't we?
and you lie and backpedal when the evidence of your post is right there to see.
no, you are pretenciously dishonest to challenge ME to find other verses so that you can pretend that the topic is totally invalid! if you were honest, you would have found them yourself, lazy christian.
i really don't like christians.
i don't appreciate any of your laziness or that you obviously missed he was making a contradictory point. not very good it's true but if you had taken the time, you would have seen it.
you only saw what you wanted to see. WOW, what a reaction for someone who claims they aren't religious. really 'bible' sensitive, aren't we?
and you lie and backpedal when the evidence of your post is right there to see.
no, you are pretenciously dishonest to challenge ME to find other verses so that you can pretend that the topic is totally invalid! if you were honest, you would have found them yourself, lazy christian.
i really don't like christians.
any excuse huh?
i said what i wanted to say..its not my fault you wanna get offended at everything i say..
grow up!
context from numbers 14:18
IE numbers 14:1-19..
17“But now, I pray, let the power of the Lord be great, just as You have declared, 18‘The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.’ 19“Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to the greatness of Your lovingkindness, just as You also have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.”
this is a single person praying about what he wants..not a command from god..
and to be more scientific about it..
Deuteronomy 24
seems like a list of behaviour rules..
too many to post..
but i will make fun of a few..
if you get drafted..get married and spend a year screwing..
so does that mean if i owe on my truck they can't take it?
hey! a no colateral loan....
p.s.
ok