Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke

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Push back on my part☺

Jan sneaks in a little preaching in on me which I take as sincere on his part but I cant resist playing the same game back...its a game isnt it?

I dont really expect Jan to change his position or his ways....I do feel guilty that I have let truth loose in his head....but he has demonstrated he can resist the truth in the past.

I doubt if he enjoys the freedom we have here and frankly I think if over there I would not declare to be atheist...you only have to watch the atheist experience utube show to realise so many folk can not handle atheists over there.. a generalisation but ....

I just like to chat and play with Jan .... but there is little point in taking anything seriously particulary religion.

If folk find him annoying they dont have to read his posts....
And he is entiled to free speech even if a little tricky.

Hopefully these long threads help with site traffic which helps keep the place running and so a few of us can hang out.

Anyways Jan will have his hands full when he reads our posts...He will be swamped with mine and give a dismissive reply which is good as I wont have time after tomorrow and will be disappearing back into the woodwork.

I also do enjoy your posts James ...always well thought out and interesting. Thanks.
Alex
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Free speech does not mean 1 has a right to say anything with no regard to truth & respect. Free speech, as well as other freedoms & rights. come with responsibility.
If he actually thinks he knows things about me which I know are not true & have told him are not true, he definitely has a significant mental problem. Otherwise, he is lying.
Either way, he demonstrates what a fool he is & should stop for his sake if not for anyone else.

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Absolutely.

All I can suggest is not to let him get under your skin.
Take joy from out smarting him.
Alex
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It is not a matter of getting under my skin. It is a matter of standing up to it.
Here online he is to me somewhat like an annoying gnat or an upset child lashing out blindly. I usually claim to be a pacifist but no 1 says crap like that to my face twice if they even get to finish saying it once. 98% of the time, I am much more tolerant than I believe anyone should expect but no 1 tells me that I know god exists. I do not put up with that & no 1 should have to. That is not covered by Free Speech.
He is trying to be a bully & could disturb someone young and/or vulnerable. There is no place for it in attempts at intelligent discussion.
Evidently, he does not believe in Free Speech for anyone but himself.

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It is not a matter of getting under my skin. It is a matter of standing up to it.
Here online he is to me somewhat like an annoying gnat or an upset child lashing out blindly. I usually claim to be a pacifist but no 1 says crap like that to my face twice if they even get to finish saying it once. 98% of the time, I am much more tolerant than I believe anyone should expect but no 1 tells me that I know god exists. I do not put up with that & no 1 should have to. That is not covered by Free Speech.
He is trying to be a bully & could disturb someone young and/or vulnerable. There is no place for it in attempts at intelligent discussion.
Evidently, he does not believe in Free Speech for anyone but himself.

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Pot meeting kettle, and all that ...
 
The question is why overt Abrahamic theists post like that on science forums. It's an interesting question, because so many do - one can recognize a common style, even.

Except that Jan isn't an "overt Abrahamic theist". Jan's something else.

The problem with trolls is that it's hard to tell if they really believe what they claim to believe.

During the last few years, Jan's done all that he/she can do to keep him/herself mysterious. (We don't even know if Jan is male or female, or what part of the world he/she lives in.) I've asked several times what teaching Jan has received and what tradition he/she adheres to. Jan's response has been that Jan has received no religious teaching and adheres to no tradition. (Jan says that he/she makes it all up for him/herself.) I think that Jan prefers to always be mysterious because providing any information would create vulnerabilities, things that Jan feels could be attacked and would have to be defended. Jan prefers to always be on the attack and always be trying to mess with other people's heads.

But... Jan has been on Sciforums for more than 15 years. And in the earlier years, Jan was a lot more open about his/her beliefs. I think that Jan still is, or at least at one time was, a "Hari Krishna". (Maybe he/she learned the trollish posting style from trying to mess with strangers at airports.)

The connection comes from the fact that Jan's Hindu scripture quotes (back when he/she still seemed to be willing to express views) come from translations by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the guru of the Hari Krishna's. But most of those old threads are conveniently hidden today in Sciforums' seemingly semi-secret "religion archives".

Here's a 16-year-old thread from before Jan had figured out how to work the quote function, in which he/she was preaching Hinduism and posing as an authority on the subject. (It's entertaining in those old threads to watch Jan trying to instruct people who appear to be Indians on the subtleties of their own religion.)

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/intelligence-vs-self-in-the-gita.5790/

Here's a 15-year-old thread in which Jan is telling everyone "...the B.G. [Bhagavad Gita] is the essence of the Vedas. It is truly the jewel in the crown. All theists should study B.G. in my humble opinion."

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/advice-on-the-vedas.28610/

Here's a 15-year-old thread in which Jan informs everyone, "Ignorance means not knowing or being aware of ones real position as a soul and taking the phenomenal, temporal body to be the self... Study the BG, you will understand."

In that same thread Jan tells an apparent Indian, "I too am fortunate enought to read BG in its original language and listen to it in native tone, and can recite a verse or two, so we have something in common." Obviously literacy in Sanskrit, if there's any truth to that (I'm very skeptical), suggests serious religious training.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/will-the-meek-hinduism-survive.16907/page-2

Here's a 14-year-old thread in which Jan was playing games similar to those he/she plays now, trying to provoke opponents emotionally by accusing them of being in "denial". Except back then he/she was still quoting from Prabhupada (about atoms in this instance):

http://mail.sciforums.com/threads/burden-of-proof.31735/page-3

Here's a 14-year-old thread in which Jan was posing as an authority on 'eastern religion' more generally, insisting that Buddhists are really Hindus deep down, seeking to merge with Brahman. (Many Hindus, including the Hari Krishnas apparently, dismiss Buddhism that way or at least hope that it will serve as an evangelistic hook to convert Buddhists.)

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/theory-of-evolution-and-major-eastern-religions.43026/

Here's a 13-year-old-thread in which Jan tells us: "...it is obvious to me that the BG is a universal scripture, for the pleasure of Krishnas devotees from all over the universe... It is a scripture that explains everything."

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-bhagavad-gita-and-ethics.48085/page-6

Here's a much more recent 4-year-old thread in which Jan slips up and writes: "Consider this claim of God's... 'I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me' ". (It's from the Bhagavad Gita.)

http://sciforums.com/threads/to-pro...te-god-with-invisible-unicorns.143034/page-19

I call it a slip-up since by that time Jan was trying desperately to hide his/her own personal religious background, actually insisting that he/she has received no teaching, while attacking everyone else for their supposed ignorance about the subject of religion. (How Jan became a supposed authority on the divine, on man's relationship with the divine, and on the beliefs of all traditions, without benefit of any education, religious teaching and without belonging to any tradition is one of the mysteries.)

In contrast to the more recent denials, I think that there are subtle and not-so-subtle signs of Jan's own religious background throughout what he/she has written over the years.
 
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You'll have to explain that some more, I'm afraid.
No I don't. Unless you've never known, or don't know anything.
Please give some examples, preferably ones relatable to the innate knowledge of God that you claim we all have.
Irrelevant, and not on topic.
There's no need for God to have made me in order for me to ask questions, as far as I can see. If you think only God could have made me, you'll need to explain why.
That's being atheist is. Denial and rejection of God.
Like what? You didn't answer my question.
http://www.existence-of-god.com/existence-of-god.html
The point is that you have not put forward a single "classical argument" for God yet, or anything else that is persuasive.
James. Take a good look at the title of this thread. Next, try and explain how me giving you a classical argument for God, is relevant.
All three have been refuted endlessly by philosophers.
You're bound to think that.
Maybe a good place to start would be for you to put forward the main evidences that convince you of God. Then we can see whether those would satisfy the atheists here.
Then start an appropriate thread, and if it doesn't become populated by stupidity, I may just engage. But for now stay on topic.
Here's an idea: make an effort, Jan.
I'll remember that one. Thanks.
The thread title is a lie you told at the start. It was exposed early on, and yet you persist.
How is it a lie?
I believe that unicorns probably don't exist.
I don't think that is entirely true.
You have no real need to either believe, or disbelieve. I think you just take it for granted that they don't exist as far as you're aware.
It is no different for God.
How do you know?
But is there any objective evidence that such knowledge exists or is even possible?
Evidence presupposes truth.
Is there any objective evidence for the existence of truth?
I don't think it's natural to "just know" stuff like that.
What do you think God is, why you think we can't naturally know stuff like God?
How does anybody know this? How do you know, Jan?
I could just as easily ask, why wouldd anyone deny and, or reject it?
It is a cop out on your part to keep slapping the "denier" label on reasonable people. Objectively, there is nothing to deny.
So reasonable people are incapable of denying God?
Is that what you're saying?
In particular, you'll need to come up with a rational explanation for why literally hundreds of millions of people claim that they do not have the knowledge you claim they have. You'll have to try harder than "They are all deep in denial."
Why do I have to try harder if it it's true? Are you saying that nobody at all denies and reject God?
Tell us your insights on the psychology of atheists, Jan. Maybe you can cure us.
Start a thread, and if it's not populated with stupidity, I just might engage.

Jan.
 
Light-hearted banter. Take the heat out of the discussion. I get it. ;)

Not totally. Mammals and birds go through REM sleep; the start of when humans start to dream. This presupposes that my cat dreams -- has an unconscious part of the brain. If the OP conjecture has ingrained metaphysical associations entwined with the unconscious/subconscious I could make an opinion that my cat too believes in some metaphysical things.

https://askdruniverse.wsu.edu/2015/10/05/do-animals-dream/
 
Except that Jan isn't an "overt Abrahamic theist". - -
Yes, he is. Standard model.
But... Jan has been on Sciforums for more than 15 years. And in the earlier years, Jan was a lot more open about his/her beliefs. I think that Jan still is, or at least at one time was, a "Hari Krishna".
There's no contradiction.
Here's a 15-year-old thread in which Jan is telling everyone "...the B.G. [Bhagavad Gita] is the essence of the Vedas. It is truly the jewel in the crown. All theists should study B.G. in my humble opinion."
A common sentiment among more intellectual ore exploratory Abrahamic theists, who interpret the text in Christian terms.
Notice: theist first, then study BG.
(Maybe he/she learned the trollish posting style from trying to mess with strangers at airports.)
The language of "rejecting God" and "denying God" is main-sequence Abrahamic.
 
Yes, he is. Standard model.

Not if he/she is (or was) a devotee of the Bhagavad Gita and Krishna. Nothing 'Abrahamic' about either one.

Abraham is a character from Hebrew tradition. That tradition spun off Christianity and was adopted by Islam. So those three religions are 'Abrahamic' in that all three have a foundation in the Hebrew scriptures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

The Indian traditions that gave rise to Krishna devotion developed separately in India. Their tradition is (however remotely) Vedic.
 
Not if he/she is (or was) a devotee of the Bhagavad Gita and Krishna. Nothing 'Abrahamic' about either one.
But a great deal Abrahamic in the posting here. Somehow.
Notice: Theist first, then BG - which is amenable.

https://www.gitadaily.com/atheism-claims-to-reject-god-but-only-replaces-him/ The closest to "Jan Ardena" (check into that avatar, btw) one can get without a Bible handy.

Finding manifestations of God in various religions is fairly common among Abrahamic theists - they have to interpret correctly, of course. And so the Biblical Genesis creation tale, and similar features of the Old Testament, show up in Jan's posts - the reincarnation stuff not so much (Hindus tend to have less trouble with Darwin).

Meanwhile:
The thing with Christians is that they beholding only to the Bible. They claim that Jesus is God, and the only way to know God is to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour. They do not recognise God outside of that. They don't accept anything that is not in the KJV of the Bible. Not even other books, or gospels that have been found since.
If you are looking for evidence that our Jan is not an Abrahamic theist, that would work better, from this thread. But there is still the posting - - - -
 
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My impression is that Jan picks and chooses what he likes from his "scriptures", and discards the rest. In that way, he constructs his own personal theism. Certainly he seems heavily influenced by the BG (and quite possibly the Hari Krishnas, as described helpfully by Yazata, above). But iceaura is also correct in that Jan seems quite fond of certain elements of the fundamentalist Abrahamist religions - Old Testament Creationism being one that has come up recently.

I was somewhat taken aback to discover that Jan apparently rejects evolution. I hope that is due to simple ignorance of the science, rather than dogmatic adherence to religious dogma, but on the other hand it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he is willing to reject science in favour of his own interpretation of a favorite "scripture".
 
But iceaura is also correct in that Jan seems quite fond of certain elements of the fundamentalist Abrahamist religions - Old Testament Creationism being one that has come up recently.

".

Out of curiosity, what would non abrahamic creationism look like, IYHO?
 
Out of curiosity, what would non abrahamic creationism look like, IYHO?
You could make a list.
Different cultures have creation approaches I expect.
I think I am on to something with the eternal universe as it needs no creator.
We cant argue about the evidence for a creator can we argue for an eternal universe without a creator ...a universe that somehow pre existed before the big bang the remnants of an earlier big bang making up the pre existing universe and so on in never ending cycles that never had a begining.
There is a thread in this place which you may have read.
All I am thinking is this idea has popped into my head and it would seem to have better evidence ... it at least goes back to an event science agrees on...can any religion do that?
And the more I think about it even though all these things are speculative it is an interesting speculation.
Its good enough to build a cult around.

And it struck me the message of the ark story is that we need to build some giant space ships and preserve the plants and animals...like Timothy Leary imagined...an asteroid hollowed out with oceans and mountains and everyone is nice and kind...the prophesy of heaven...and someone will appesr with the spirit of the lord or at least a loved human wise beyond measure and loved by all...
Send money so we can get this thing going.
Alex
 
It has all come together.
Jan is that human who can lead us all...
We will need some robes and I have a neat stick starve whatever...
It came to me in a dream.
The scarey thing is with the net and utube you could find yourself with an extrodinary following ... it happens.
Should we☺?
Alex
 
So which of them are compatible with monotheistic tradition? ... or is it kind of like a strangerinastrangelandism, where one talks of thousands of religions being present and yet being unable to speak meaningfully (or, as in his case, post memes about) anything other than christianity and perhaps a smattering of islam and Judaism (IOW, presenting the picture of a run of the mill abrahamic atheist)?
 
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