Scientists Deem Creation to Be the Most Rational Explanation of Universe

[Woody]

Audible said: life could be emerging somewhere in the universe right now.

Woody: How about right here on planet earth where we can look at it?

SG: No mutation in a sea creature could produce a land-animal's pelvic bones unless that sea creature used to be a land-creature!

Woody: First fish in the ocean evolved to amphibians then to reptiles, then to mammals, and then the whale changed his mind and went back to the ocean. Evolution sounds pointless. Why didn't the whale just remain a fish and save himself a lot of trouble?
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SG about life evolving from amino acids in dead organisms: Good question, the answer is that there is so much life around now, that any organic material that can't defend itself is rapidly consumed.

Woody: NC State University has a milk preservation process whereby milk is containerized and sterilized with radiation. The milk is fresh indefinately without refrigeration because all the germs are killed. So is it possible life could evolve from the carton of milk?

 

[spidergoat]

Sorry we got off topic with the ice question, it assumes a clean, smooth container, in which it is possible to supercool water without freezing it, but anyway...

Woody: First fish in the ocean evolved to amphibians then to reptiles, then to mammals, and then the whale changed his mind and went back to the ocean. Evolution sounds pointless. Why didn't the whale just remain a fish and save himself a lot of trouble?

Evolution has no plan that's why! At every step, the animal benefits from it's adaptations, and whales benefit from the increased brain power of mammals. Remember the environment is changing at the same time. But, your humor hides the fact that you can't answer why God would create a sea creature with the unused pelvic bones of a land animal.

Life evolved in an environment very different from today. In fact, the early environment of Earth was probably uninhabitable for today's life forms! For one thing, there was no oxygen, that came later when plants made it, and oxygen makes organic material decompose or something, so that's another reason why abiogenesis is unlikely to occur today.

 

[Woody]

SG: But, your humor hides the fact that you can't answer why God would create a sea creature with the unused pelvic bones of a land animal.

Woody: Probably the same reason he created an ostrich with wings.

S/G: whales benefit from the increased brain power of mammals.

Woody: Until man hunts them to extinction.

SG:For one thing, there was no oxygen, that came later when plants made it, and oxygen makes organic material decompose or something, so that's another reason why abiogenesis is unlikely to occur today.

Woody: So why can't somebody create the right conditions in a controlled laboratory setting?

By the way S/G what do for a living? Just curious.

 

[David2]

yousay that it is not the "good kind" of propaganda who are you to decide that.

But there is nothing to show that it is besides individual's faith. So it is not the "good kind" of propoganda.

 

[wesmorris]

I'm me. In general terms, the "good kind" of propaganda would be like public safety information, etc.

That seems kind of out of context though. I don't remember what I was trying to say.

I read back and figured it out. He said "there's nothing wrong with propaganda if it's true". The thought occured to me that Hitler types use propaganda that's true "We're going to exterminate the jews because we hate them." I'd say there's something wrong with that type of propaganda. *shrug* It's not a major point of the argument though, just a temporary distraction from the main points.

 

[audible]

Woody: How about right here on planet earth where we can look at it?

Remember that evolution is something that occurs very slowly over
extremely long periods of time (in comparison to our life spans,but you avoid the fact that it could be happening somewhere in the universe.

and woody your the person with the smarts regarding creation, can you explain why we have a coccyx's, thank you .

 

[SnakeLord]

Woody: First fish in the ocean evolved to amphibians then to reptiles, then to mammals, and then the whale changed his mind and went back to the ocean. Evolution sounds pointless. Why didn't the whale just remain a fish and save himself a lot of trouble?

If only whales had the power of foresight heh?

You know, dodo's used to be able to fly. Eventually it arised that there simply was no need to, and so they didn't. As par for the course, they eventually couldn't fly. If only they had have known a bunch of people would come along and lead to their extermination. But Woody, regardless to what your mind tells you, there is no reason to even entertain the idea that animals can see what will happen in the future, and respond accordingly.

When the first fish crawled out of the ocean, it certainly wasn't thinking about a mammal several hundred thousand years later.

Sorry Woody, but you are very naive.

 

[Hapsburg]

exactly.
i hate it when some christians that i know are all "evolution didnt happen! im not an ape!" and they go on the offensive and go...nuts!
they dont understand that its the natural way of things, and that i did happen.
only a maroon would think that it isnt. either that, or an obviously ignorant narrow-minded hick.

 

[Woody]

S/L: When the first fish crawled out of the ocean, it certainly wasn't thinking about a mammal several hundred thousand years later.

WoodY: OOPs I think you got your time frame a little short (but I know what you are saying). Evolutionists need to buy all the time they can get.

Je suis audible said: Remember that evolution is something that occurs very slowly over extremely long periods of time (in comparison to our life spans,but you avoid the fact that it could be happening somewhere in the universe.

Woody: A similar point I made with S/L: You can't watch evolution happen. Unfortunately we don't have that long to live. WE can agree that everyone bets their eternity on what they believe: you on evolution and me on a creator.

Secondly, the evolution argument has a bad dilemma. Either man is so unintelligent that he can't create life (the odvious result) in a laboratory, or man is an intelligent creature but his intelligence is irrelevant for explaining how life or even the universe occured. In either case man has been outdone by mindless nature, and he is a pathetic creature that sits around trying to explain the impossible. This point is confirmed by the "theories" that say it used to happen then but you can't see it now. It just makes man smaller and smaller until man and his wisdom aren't even relevant. When you see how small and helpless man really is in the grand scheme of things, perhaps we can start to agree on some things.

Hapsburg said: exactly. i hate it when some christians that i know are all "evolution didnt happen! im not an ape!" and they go on the offensive and go...nuts!

Woody: I never disagreed with speciation and other "baby steps" in the evolutionary process. I have a problem with the big steps that aren't proven by science.

I originally asked someone to create life from inert ingredients. Surely an intelligent approach in a laboratory setting should produce results, if evolution is true. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt on the resources: Let's see somebody revive a person or an animal that's been dead for a couple of hours with everything already in place: the DNA, the cell structures, the systems -- everything.

 

[Hapsburg]

all i know is: evolution happened and i will defend it with violence to the death.

 

[audible]

woody: could you please help by answering, why we have a coccyx's, thank you.

 

[SnakeLord]

WoodY: OOPs I think you got your time frame a little short (but I know what you are saying).

I'm glad you do, because until you can grasp the very basics, (which you seem astoundingly ignorant to), there is no worth in worrying about the finer details.

Evolutionists need to buy all the time they can get.

A statement of absolutely no worth to anything. Was there a point in making it?

But hey, you're religious, and we all know religious people are mentally retarded.

See.. there was no need for it was there?

 

[wesmorris]

Does anyone really think WOODY is here for conversation?

I don't.

He's here to tell you how it is. Praise his lord you dirty heathen.

 

[wesmorris]

only a maroon would think that it isnt. either that, or an obviously ignorant narrow-minded hick.

HEY!! That's "professional engineer" maroonish ignorant narrow-minded hick. Got it?

 

[Woody]

SL: I'm glad you do, because until you can grasp the very basics, (which you seem astoundingly ignorant to), there is no worth in worrying about the finer details.

Woody: So how many years did it take in your opinion to go from fish to mammal? I'll give you an opportunity to correct your mistake " several hundred thousand years later."


Wes: HEY!! That's "professional engineer" maroonish ignorant narrow-minded hick. Got it?

Woody: and what do you do for a living besides feeding your fat face? Aha, I see you are a quality manager from the missouri border state. Head scorekeeper even! And My hickish alma mater tar heels conquered Saint Louis this week now didn't they! Yuck Yuck Har Har

Carolina an unsophisticated hick school! Wes, You are hilarious. Keep me laughing will you?

When guys from the northeast move south to retire, they bring all their poor upbringing with them. Like their behavior at the hotel breakfast bar. There's Darwin's theory at work for you. The pigs at the feeding trough always have a northern accent. Get out of their way or be stepped on. Geez, doesn't anybody from up north learn a little bit of courtesy and table manners? Yeah, we southerners see the difference alright.

 

[spidergoat]

SG: But, your humor hides the fact that you can't answer why God would create a sea creature with the unused pelvic bones of a land animal.

Woody: Probably the same reason he created an ostrich with wings.

Right! That's an even better example, but at least they can use them to cool themselves in the hot climate of Africa, and dance around to attract mates. Doesn't that seem illogical that a bird should be created with a (semi) nonfunctional appendage obviously shaped like those for flight? I mean, we are trying to use logic here, right? It seems like you are suggesting that God isn't logical. If that's the case, then you can't argue that Creationism is logical, which seems to be the point of this thread.

Woody: So why can't somebody create the right conditions in a controlled laboratory setting?

These kind of experiments are going on right now, as I said. You're saying, like, why can't people travel to Mars? Well, I'm sure they will eventually, it's not impossible, but they can't right now. Remember, we only have a short part of our lives to work on such things, while the early earth was perhaps "ripe" for the emergence of life for a billion years. The precursors of life might not have been what we now recognize as life. Instead of cell walls, there might have been just spaces between clay particles, RNA instead of DNA, or some other kinds of metabolism.

By the way S/G what do for a living? Just curious.

I do industrial design, and construct prototype models for consumer products, but my backround is in sculpture. My father is a scientist and inventor, so I read alot of science magazines growing up, and I also used to work for him as a laboratory assistant back when I was a poor starving artist.

 

[Woody]

SG said: But, your humor hides the fact that you can't answer why God would create a sea creature with the unused pelvic bones of a land animal.

Woody: Isn't the pelvis part of the live birth process? All mammals are air breathing from birth.


SG said: I mean, we are trying to use logic here, right? It seems like you are suggesting that God isn't logical. If that's the case, then you can't argue that Creationism is logical, which seems to be the point of this thread.

Woody: God has a sense of humor too.

SG: These kind of experiments are going on right now, as I said. You're saying, like, why can't people travel to Mars? Well, I'm sure they will eventually, it's not impossible, but they can't right now. Remember, we only have a short part of our lives to work on such things, while the early earth was perhaps "ripe" for the emergence of life for a billion years. The precursors of life might not have been what we now recognize as life. Instead of cell walls, there might have been just spaces between clay particles, RNA instead of DNA, or some other kinds of metabolism.

Woody: As an engineer I can believe a Mars mission or even the possibilities of time travel. But I'll believe life can be created when I see it.


Think about this: There are 6 billion people on the planet earth. If WE all collectively put in one year working on this problem, then that's 6 billion years of effort. A plan should outperform randomness shouldn't it? Anybody that makes something knows you get better results when you plan because it improves your capability. It's better than Murphy's Law anyway.

So what's your bet S/G? Do you think 6 billion man-years of research can create life from inert ingredients, or is man just kidding himself about his own intelligence?

 

[spidergoat]

That's the crux of the biscuit, Woody-

You don't need intelligence to make complicated structures and systems!

A plan should outperform randomness shouldn't it? Anybody that makes something knows you get better results when you plan because it improves your capability.

Absolutely not! I have read of one instance where a program was written to evolve other programs based on random variation and selection for "fitness". The result were novel and unexpected programs that were not only much shorter than any person had written before, but performed just as well or better at accomplishing a given mathematical task.

Computer scientists are simulating biological evolution with computers. So, they don't need to design every aspect of an organism, only set up the initial conditions, and let evolution do it's thing.

When the Avida team published their first results on the evolution of complexity in 2003, they were inundated with e-mails from creationists. Their work hit a nerve in the antievolution movement and hit it hard. A popular claim of creationists is that life shows signs of intelligent design, especially in its complexity. They argue that complex things could never have evolved, because they don't work unless all their parts are in place. But as Adami points out, if creationists were right, then Avida wouldn't be able to produce complex digital organisms. A digital organism may use 19 or more simple routines in order to carry out the equals operation. If you delete any of the routines, it can't do the job. “What we show is that there are irreducibly complex things and they can evolve,” says Adami.

If scientists needed to use their intelligence to design an organism fully formed in all it's detail, then that would prove creationism, wouldn't it? I suggest you read the linked article.
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SG said: But, your humor hides the fact that you can't answer why God would create a sea creature with the unused pelvic bones of a land animal.

Woody: Isn't the pelvis part of the live birth process? All mammals are air breathing from birth.

SG sez.... A whale's pelvis is a tiny vestigal bone, there's no way a baby whale could fit through it. I don't see what it has to do with air. But, you acknowledge evolutionary change over time, right? So, the logical conclusion is not that God has a sense of humor, since that's the same as saying there's no logic to life, but, that whales didn't always look like they do now and they must have come from the land.

 

[spidergoat]

Creationists argue that the simulations do not resemble real living things in complexity, but that's not the point. They are not making simulations of creatures themselves, but simulations of evolution, and they prove that it works, producing novel results that could never have been designed by humans.

 

[Woody]

SG said:That's the crux of the biscuit, Woody- You don't need intelligence to make complicated structures and systems! If scientists needed to use their intelligence to design an organism fully formed in all it's detail, then that would prove creationism, wouldn't it? I suggest you read the linked article.


Woody: In other words intelligence is useless as far as evolution is concerned, because evolution is not science. If it were science then we could use intelligence to create a structure or system to do what evolution does. That's what we study real science for -- to make use of the world's resources to create structures and systems. I see we are getting much closer to agreement concerning life and evolution for that matter. Intelligence as we know it is useless for creating life. Yes indeed we are getting very close. Bravo!

I see human intelligence becoming irrelevant and my point is being made: When we find human intelligence is really insignificant in the grand scheme of things we have common ground.

Of course S/L hasn't weighed in yet, or M/W for that matter (she says intelligence is going to save humanity and explain everything someday). There I go messing with their God (the human mind) again.