Scalar waves on other ways to control the weather???

[Hipparchia]

Actually it is the law not to take psychedelic drugs. Science (or scientism) has nothing to do with the laws.
Again you say science is oppressing people. The people in power often use religion to keep the masses more under control. How do they use your scientism?

I may have the wrong end of Duendy's thoughts here, but is their not some truth in this? Duendy's argument, if I understand him correctly (and I'll try not to put to much of my own thinking in here), is that firstly science and religion are two sides of the same coin; secondly, the knowledge of both has resided in a 'priesthood'; thirdly, this priesthood has often been either at the top of the controlling political structure or embedded in it. Without science the drugs could not be identified; studies (that some might claim were biased) as to their effects would not be carried out; technologies to detect the drugs would not be developed.

Of course, I agree shaman, that scientists are not sitting in laboratories somewhere writing out new laws, but I think they are implicated, for good and bad, in many of the laws we have. [I should have guessed shaman would have occasionally tried mind altering substances. ]

I also wonder if Duendy is thinking that scientism, as opposed to science, is about the unthinking application of science: science without ethics. The governments are certainly making increasing use of surveillance techniques.

Duendy I read somewhere that in the UK (I think you live there) the average person appears on a dozen or more CCTV cameras every day! That just seems oppressive.
Anyway, just some thoughts. They look much more random written down than they did when they occured to me.

 

[duendy]

HI Hipparchia, thanks, you have understood what i am meaning and added your own insights.
Yes you are right. it is 1984 here for sure. ......the main thrust of the controllers is control. every move, even the very mind

 

[duendy]

What is the scientific authority?

me:::the combination of corporate State and science obviously

Who is upholding this authority?

me:::it is the imposed paradigm upheld by the power elite, and indoctrinated through schools and all institutions

Science progresses from being challenged, unlike religion. You may roll your eyes at that sentence but how else has science been able to progress?

me:::we have to kee in mind that sience is toally amalgamated with POWER, the STATE. so any challenge is kept within the criteria of the power hiearchies. Certian maverick scintists who step over the line imposed by this hiearchy have been severely punished, some with death.

The discussions you have had with phlogistician are not unlike those had most internet forums where people are disagreeing. You have been quite condescending as well. Does everyone who disagrees with you get accused of scientism?

no. only scientismists

 

[duendy]

Actually it is the law not to take psychedelic drugs. Science (or scientism) has nothing to do with the laws. You seem to blame science for a lot of things.

me:::wrong. Law is backed up by science. in this case scientism. these powers have their own white coats on te pay-roll to tell them what they DEMAND to 'know. dont be so naive

I assume that because, through science, we are able to explain the effects of mind altering drugs on the brain you accuse science of not having any respect for the experience. That is absurd. Science is able to explain that the sun is not the god Ra but that doesn't mean it has any less respect for the sun. No, you are angry that the 'magic' has been taken away from the experience.

me:::dont assume what i am thinking and feeling.
They can explain the 'nuts and bolts'...what chemicals are doing etc. maybe. but haven't you heard of the 'hard problem' (David Chalmers) in science? checkout tis very interesting article 'Toward a Science of Consciousness http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v14n1-html/tucson_conference.html
you will see that the 'qualia' pf consciousness experience--ie., te quality of sensual experinetial phenomena is not so easily explianed

listen. i take a psychedelic mushroom, and i suddenly see Nature in a totally different way, and i experience associations from my pst which are intracately linked with a red rose i see by chance, and an animal appears and ...etc and all tis has INCREDIBLE deep meaning for me and chages my sense of being.......such as that is te stuff reductionist scientists cannot pin down. they are apporoaching it with a wrong andlimiting mechanical language. and as the history of science is showing, eg., Newton's theories ar fine in their domain, bu limited in the domain of QM. so it is for what i am speaking about. so shaman the scientists and scientismists most definately haven't boxed the magic and filed it

Society will label drug users 'low lifes' not science.

me:::go tell phlo

By the way duendy I have taken lsd many times.

me:::what tends to make me sad the most is not those who haven't had psychedelic exprience who underestimate it, but tose who have had that do

How is science (scientism whatever) punishing people? Do not mention Galileo.

me:::it is happening everywhere shaman. an opprssive imposition to be 'normal' orr else. millions of kids are falsely diagnosed with socalled mental illness such as 'ADHD' apparently backed up by 'science'...sam wit aall 'mental illness'. this is scientisms most insidious orm of social control! i urge you very much to get and read The Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the
Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement, by Thomas Szasz.......also consider the awful weaponry unleashed on mankind via scienctific procedures

Again you say science is oppressing people. The people in power often use religion to keep the masses more under control. How do they use your scientism?

see above!

 

[phlogistician]

this is about scientism not science. i believe you display scientism rather than real science

Well, that's another of your misguided beliefs. I'm not here to discuss that.

*chruch believes in the word of 'God'
you believe in the word of scientism--ie., te grid through which you judgeALL non ordinary phenomena and behaviours

I asked you to contrast science and religion, and you have not done that. There is no such thing as a 'non ordinary' phenomenon. If something happens, it's ordinary, plain and simple. You arbitrarily assume things are out of the ordinary because you are blinkered as to what to accept as 'normal'. That's your lack of vision.

*church has p-reists that act as middle men between individual and 'God'
Scientism has middle men--scientismists--who stand between the individual and 'Truth'

False. Anyone can repeat a basic science experiment, and be a scientist. It is not a closed shop and it is free to anyone. One of my projects when I worked for a bunch of scientists was to make astronomical data available to anyone who wanted it via the WWW. The tools to analyse it were also free. The truth is all around you, scientists don't let you experience it vicariously.

*Chruch demands you filter all experience in conformity with Scripture
scientism demands you filter all experience trough conformity to accepted consensual reality as dicxtated by te metaphysical assumptions of scientism

Science somehow filters your experience? How does that work? How does the work of a scientist change your daily experience?!!!

*Church denies and forbids/taboos the exploration ofreality with the aid of psychedelic plants and fungi etc
Scientism dismisses and forbids psychedelic experience, and doesn't respect such experience--reducing it to mere chemical activity,and the activity of 'low lifes'

Can you quote where the church (which one?) makes a stand on psychotropics? Science doesn't forbid psychdelic experimentation, society and governments do. You are reaching too far with this one!

*Church punishes those who do not conform to reality as they dogmatize it should be
Scientim punishes tose whose behaviour does not conform t how one should experience reality

There you go with with this reality trip again. Science does not punish anyone. Science explores, and records data. Then builds models from that data, not dungeons.

*Church wa entwined with State forming a formidable fascistic power hiearchy, ad opression Scientiam entwines wit State to create a formidable hierachal structure of power and oppression

Little men in white coats may have had some power over _you_ at some point in the past, and it sounds like this is the axis of your gripe. Have you been treated for a mental disorder in the past?

*Church emphasises 'spirit'
Scientism emphasizes 'matter'

Wouldn't that be a difference, not a similarity?

 

[duendy]

phlo? you 'well educated rounded person' you...READ the other posts i have posted today, and LISTEN

 

[shaman_]

I may have the wrong end of Duendy's thoughts here, but is their not some truth in this? Duendy's argument, if I understand him correctly (and I'll try not to put to much of my own thinking in here), is that firstly science and religion are two sides of the same coin; secondly, the knowledge of both has resided in a 'priesthood'; thirdly, this priesthood has often been either at the top of the controlling political structure or embedded in it. Without science the drugs could not be identified; studies (that some might claim were biased) as to their effects would not be carried out; technologies to detect the drugs would not be developed.

Of course, I agree shaman, that scientists are not sitting in laboratories somewhere writing out new laws, but I think they are implicated, for good and bad, in many of the laws we have. [I should have guessed shaman would have occasionally tried mind altering substances. ]

The knowledge in science has not resided in a 'priesthood' it has been made available to all. A lot of todays top scientists write books and encourage people to learn as science much as possible. If you visit something like http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/headlines.htm you will see updates every day.


Yes because of scientists we are able to identify and understand today’s illegal drugs. The policy regarding these drugs and the enforcement of such policy is up to the goverment in power. You cannot blame scientists for this.

There have been some biased studies towards drugs. Scientists have made mistakes. Similar to the academics in Galileo's time they have been influenced by the powers of the time.

 

[phlogistician]

phlo? you 'well educated rounded person' you...READ the other posts i have posted today, and LISTEN

more ad homs duendy. Keep going, it makes you so credible.

I asked you for a source demonstrating science is a religion. Instead, you tangentially link a paper about Galileo, and how he wasn't that oppressed by the church.

I said we'd assess the credibility of the source you linked, and I did that, even though it was off topic. I provided more information about the life of Galileo which did not trivialise his persecution by the clergy, and also linked to a critique of the article you cited. But your mind was closed to any more inout, and for some reason, chose the word of one scientist, over that of several other historians. (please go and find out more about Jerry Bergman, btw, he has various scientific qualifications, and it astounds me that you trust his written word! Or, is Bergman more to your taste because of his Creationist views?)

I also asked you to provide a side by side comparison of religion and science, and for you to provide several similarities. You instead posted allegory, and personal rantings, and one dissimilarity.

As to your other assertions about psychadelic experiences and the genesis of god, well, please write them more clearly, and provide suport for your arguments. So far, all you offer to this thread are assertions, and very little fact.

 

[duendy]

exactly and
vice
versa

and phlo....actuall i had aswered you last post. then i clck to submit and get this shit that i have put too many images in the post.....so thee obviously is not flkin images so i tery and bring the paragrphs togther, nd get rid of somepart of type post your lasy quote...i tried to submit 4 times. the i gave up. but what i say still stands. you are not listening. so what happened was providence telling us tis....just wanted to sow i'd made an effort

now i'd like to explore where you ask about regarding me saying 'Church emphasises 'spirit' and science emphasizes 'matter'
well, materialistic scince does dontit?...it presumes that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of complex matter. and from tis assumption will create a paradgim where 'spirit' has no place as it did in Christendom, where matter/Nature was seen as the realm of the realm of the Devil (Middle Ages), and that nature would be 'spiritually transfigured' (City of God)

so it could be seen that te Church and Science are like polar relaated extremes. yet both dogmatize reality in their terms. which is 'religion'...ie., an autority which states what IS..............precisley because of this metaphysical assumption of scientism, we currently have a mentl health movement based on 'scence' which states that if you manifest behaviours considered by them--te authorities/science to be 'abnormal' then this means you have a biological disease. ie., the reductively focu on chemcicals and whatnot, and ignore deeper meanings about why one is feeling like one is, nd behaving .......they are blinkered like the christians who would hae also spoke of 'mental illness'--toug in a diferent context, and being possessed by 'demons'

BOTH mindsets conveninetly ignore te CONTEXT or paradgim in which they make their assertions. this is devized so as t keep the maintenance of power in te hands of an elite. te last thing they want is the peasants revolting/sussing the game being played

 

[shaman_]

me:::wrong. Law is backed up by science. in this case scientism. these powers have their own white coats on te pay-roll to tell them what they DEMAND to 'know. dont be so naive

See my previous post. Also, by your logic, the white coats that are on the pay roll are just pawns and not the ones oppressing anyone.

me:::dont assume what i am thinking and feeling.
They can explain the 'nuts and bolts'...what chemicals are doing etc. maybe. but haven't you heard of the 'hard problem' (David Chalmers) in science? checkout tis very interesting article 'Toward a Science of Consciousness http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v1...conference.html
you will see that the 'qualia' pf consciousness experience--ie., te quality of sensual experinetial phenomena is not so easily explianed

Duendy due to your sloppy posting style assumptions need to be made sometimes. I think my assumption was correct though. Scientists are able to explain what is happening during a trip and you don't like it. I will read that article tomorrow. It should probably be a new thread.

me:::what tends to make me sad the most is not those who haven't had psychedelic exprience who underestimate it, but tose who have had that do

All my experiences with lsd have been enjoyable, but not spiritual.

me:::it is happening everywhere shaman. an opprssive imposition to be 'normal' orr else. millions of kids are falsely diagnosed with socalled mental illness such as 'ADHD' apparently backed up by 'science'...sam wit aall 'mental illness'. this is scientisms most insidious orm of social control! i urge you very much to get and read The Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the
Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement, by Thomas Szasz.......also consider the awful weaponry unleashed on mankind via scienctific procedures

I can't really comment on the mental health establishment as it's an area I know very little about.

consider the awful weaponry unleashed on mankind via scienctific procedures

Scientists do not start wars or attack anyone. Again, that is the powers that be. You are of course going to say that the scientists are the powers that be... Thats it im going to bed....

 

[duendy]

See my previous post. Also, by your logic, the white coats that are on the pay roll are just pawns and not the ones oppressing anyone.
me::the hiearchy is like a pyramid. many on the low rins are that savvy as the main objectives of the power elite at the top, but that doesn't excuse people who just go blindly along. they are just as guilty as the tyrants, regarding oppression.

Duendy due to your sloppy posting style assumptions need to be made sometimes. I think my assumption was correct though. Scientists are able to explain what is happening during a trip and you don't like it. I will read that article tomorrow. It should probably be a new thread.

me::look shaman...yo try fukin typin on a keyboard that measures 9 and half inches by 4, and you aint that good a typer an yuor interent severe cuts you off after a time, and your discussing compex issues..yeah. before you judge. the only one in tis thread's whose hd empathy with me about this is my anonymous....luv ya baby!
as for your insistant entranched positon about sciene now having filed away 'magic'. you are dead wrong. you underesitamte and mistrust your own psychedelic experience and 'insights'...and read that article, then get back. your experience is a perfect PERFECT illustraion of how a previaling wordview can influence your sense of being, even having been inspired wit psychedeli experience. in churchy times tis may have been someone who had hda such experience being led to believe they had had dealings wit the 'Devil' as did many hereitcs in Cristendom and in the places conquered by western missionaries--ie., in South America

All my experiences with lsd have been enjoyable, but not spiritual.

me::define 'spritual;'?


I can't really comment on the mental health establishment as it's an area I know very little about.

me::fair enough. at least you are honest abot that.

Scientists do not start wars or attack anyone. Again, that is the powers that be. You are of course going to say that the scientists are the powers that be... Thats it im going to bed....

goodnight. but sleep on tis. no i am not saying that scientists are the baddies. i am saying that te combination of science wit State has created a scientism which oppressess.....goooodnight...sweet dreams

 

[duendy]

correction of significant typos in first paragraph: i mean that the hierarchy is based on a PYRAMID....gp see the one dollar bill if American. the players on te lower rungs qrnt usually privy o te designs of te ruling elite at the pinnacle

tis is how it works. however, tis is no excuse for adults to be blind and having no intuition. many DO know tings ain right, but care more for preistige, security, and a quiet life. for they know tat any non-conformity has a price to pay. tis is what we are talking about!

 

[phlogistician]

and phlo....actuall i had aswered you last post. then i clck to submit and get this shit that i have put too many images in the post......... the i gave up.

Did the dog eat your homework when you were a schoolkid often?

In what way were images proof of your claims that science is a religion? or have you gone of on a tangent again?

Or maybe you were back on topic and had a picture of a scalar wave? !!! ;-)

 

[shaman_]

me::the hiearchy is like a pyramid. many on the low rins are that savvy as the main objectives of the power elite at the top, but that doesn't excuse people who just go blindly along.

You have still failed to demonstrate what science has to do with this. You still sound like a conspiracy theorist rambling about evil scientists.

me::look shaman...yo try fukin typin on a keyboard that measures 9 and half inches by 4, and you aint that good a typer an yuor interent severe cuts you off after a time, and your discussing compex issues..yeah. before you judge.

So don't complain if people can't understand your posts and have to guess what you mean.....

as for your insistant entranched positon about sciene now having filed away 'magic'. you are dead wrong. you underesitamte and mistrust your own psychedelic experience and 'insights'...and read that article, then get back. your experience is a perfect PERFECT illustraion of how a previaling wordview can influence your sense of being, even having been inspired wit psychedeli experience. in churchy times tis may have been someone who had hda such experience being led to believe they had had dealings wit the 'Devil' as did many hereitcs in Cristendom and in the places conquered by western missionaries--ie., in South America

I have no mistrust of my psychedelic experience. The first time I tried lsd was a long time ago when I wasn't a sceptic.

me::define 'spritual;'?

Let me rephrase, my experiences weren't particularly insightful. Just interesting and fun.

Regarding your link, sure there are some interesting uses for psychedelic drugs. What exactly do you think we can do with lsd? Where were you going with this?

This is not showing me how science is an extension of the church either.

 

[Oli]

is that firstly science and religion are two sides of the same coin; secondly, the knowledge of both has resided in a 'priesthood'

The "problem" is that Religion tells you "this is how it is and don't question us", science says "this is how we think it is, and if anyone has better ideas THAT FIT THE FACTS, tell us" - science is not taught or presented on TV etc, like that however, it's given as "this is how it IS".
Science and Religion have nothing in common, and a ""scientific priesthood" does not exist - anyone can learn science and become a scientist then ask their own questions.
Religion presents you with ultimate answers - God did it and don't question his/ our authority on anything. Science limits itself to observable, measurable, repeatable phenomena.
To go back to Duendy's point about art - can art (of any type - painting, sculpture, poetry whatever) give a useable explanation of motion (as opposed to the three equations)? No, but science can and does, and if anything comes up that is repeatedly observed to contradict those equations they will be thrown out and superseded.
Scalar waves are not science because they contradict known "facts" and have have had no explanantion put forward that is consistent with the known and observed pehenomena - therefore they come outside the purview of science.

laboratories somewhere writing out new laws, but I think they are implicated

Really? Only by providing value - free evidence on likely effects of whatever - the implications of that evidence are then used by politicians in whichever way they want.

 

[duendy]

Did the dog eat your homework when you were a schoolkid often?

In what way were images proof of your claims that science is a religion? or have you gone of on a tangent again?

me::hahaha....sometimes i feel i'm dealin withe teenager......no nooo. hav e you not had the xperience here of posting a dgetting a meesage you have put too much images in or '<>'?....listewn close phlo. i had NOT put any images in my post. my service cant do that. whathappened was i replied, and for some rreason kept getting i had put to many images in and html programmin which i hadn't. after tryting to shorten thepost etc i gave up. clear now? is this how you collate facts? always gettin the wrong end of te stick.....? no wnder you wrong then hey?

Or maybe you were back on topic and had a picture of a scalar wave? !!! ;-)

the only picture i've got at present is smug face you

 

[duendy]

You have still failed to demonstrate what science has to do with this. You still sound like a conspiracy theorist rambling about evil scientists.

me::: were te nazi scientists evil? what do you say?

So don't complain if people can't understand your posts and have to guess what you mean.....

me::asnddont you moan now you know. its like moanin at an oldman who cant get up the hill while you do it in a buggy!


I have no mistrust of my psychedelic experience. The first time I tried lsd was a long time ago when I wasn't a sceptic.

me:::what were you? and what inspired you to BEa sceptic?

Let me rephrase, my experiences weren't particularly insightful. Just interesting and fun.

me:::it's important to note tat psychedelics are TRIGGERS. t nsigts dont come exactly from the psychedelic but from the individual opened up by relationsip with the substance. so you only have yourself to blame if you are underestimating...

Regarding your link, sure there are some interesting uses for psychedelic drugs. What exactly do you think we can do with lsd? Where were you going with this?

me:::LSD is not the only psychedelic.
psyhcedelics intelligently used inspire radical change. they help you see through the machinations of oppressiv culture and alo help us gain insight about the awesome Intelligence of Nature. which is what we need cause our culture is logic-heavy. it dogmtaizes thatNature is mute, and we are te champions cause we can make and drip atom bombs etc. so you get strutting egg heads dictating what reality is. psychedelics really bypass all tis indoctrination--if opened to. one tough cnt trip all the time. tat's be awful. so yo get insights and inegrate. but tere has to be a combined education about Nature--checkout about Ecoliteracy by Fritjof Capra...about how things are being run politically, and about its drug war and war on abc.....an allow yourself and others to have freedom to explore ecstatic expression

This is not showing me how science is an extension of the church either.

i've told ya already. it is a continuance of social control.....church to science same thing still is kept going. the power elite and oppression. get me?

 

[Oli]

Science is not about social or any other sort of control - science is about enquiry. Control is the purview of politics and religion. Science by definition is apolitical (but that doesn't mean that all scientists are).

 

[duendy]

The "problem" is that Religion tells you "this is how it is and don't question us", science says "this is how we think it is, and if anyone has better ideas THAT FIT THE FACTS, tell us" - science is not taught or presented on TV etc, like that however, it's given as "this is how it IS"

me:::ecaxttly. on PAPER science might seem open and for everyone to find out for tem selves, but combined wit State it TELLS us whats what.....andit can do this precisely because of its obscurist technica lingo etc, which not everyone can understand.
If say a psychiatric victim defies te shrink telling her him that such and such sHe's been diagnosed with is false. THEN you will see the AUTHORITY of 'science' in action. let's hope it never happens to noone here. because all one's human rights are taken away

Science and Religion have nothing in common, and a ""scientific priesthood" does not exist - anyone can learn science and become a scientist then ask their own questions.

me::well OLi, you seem to have just cancelled out your previus insight. if i read it right

Religion presents you with ultimate answers - God did it and don't question his/ our authority on anything. Science limits itself to observable, measurable, repeatable phenomena.

me::as said. go tell that idealistic rubbish to a psychiatric victim!

To go back to Duendy's point about art - can art (of any type - painting, sculpture, poetry whatever) give a useable explanation of motion (as opposed to the three equations)? No, but science can and does, and if anything comes up that is repeatedly observed to contradict those equations they will be thrown out and superseded.

me::errr what? haven't a clue as to what you are referring to here. ca you refresh me?

Scalar waves are not science because they contradict known "facts" and have have had no explanantion put forward that is consistent with the known and observed pehenomena - therefore they come outside the purview of science.

me::do you admit 'known facts' from classical science have been contradicted by QM?

Really? Only by providing value - free evidence on likely effects of whatever - the implications of that evidence are then used by politicians in whichever way they want.

sorry, dont know what that is in reply to

 

[phlogistician]

The fact that you think you are being controlled by science says more about your fears and self image than it does about science, duendy.

Do you use hallucinogens as an escape from your paranoid nightmare?

But surely, you know that LSD was used extensively by the CIA in 50's, duendy? Subjects dosed up and observed, to learn about interrogation techniques? Do you think that using LSD is an escape, or a bond?