Satan: Virtuous

[Cellar_Door]

Of course, but isn't Satan pretty much the opposite of God, according to the scriptures ?
If anything, I'd say that God represents good and Satan represents evil.

Firstly, you must understand that Satan is a part of Christian culture. He represents weakness and stupidity so far as Christianity would describe weakness and stupidity. Nonetheless...

The Opposite of God would be some equally powerful Deity of anarchy and destruction. However, we are constantly reminded in the Bible that, even at his peak, the Devil was never more than an angel. Now, he only has the power to destroy and mar what has been created by God. Indeed, the very fact that Satan lacks that unattainably divine status of God makes him more human. He represents the fact that there is good and evil in each of us, and how we can be easily corrupted by our 'evil' side.

 

[Enmos]

Firstly, you must understand that Satan is a part of Christian culture. He represents weakness and stupidity so far as Christianity would describe weakness and stupidity. Nonetheless...

The Opposite of God would be some equally powerful Deity of anarchy and destruction. However, we are constantly reminded in the Bible that, even at his peak, the Devil was never more than an angel. Now, he only has the power to destroy and mar what has been created by God. Indeed, the very fact that Satan lacks that unattainably divine status of God makes him more human. He represents the fact that there is good and evil in each of us, and how we can be easily corrupted by our 'evil' side.

Hmm I disagree.
If Satan represents stupidity what in Gods name does that say about humanity ? In fact, I'd sooner turn that around.. I'd say that Satan represents evil intelligence (pleonasm ? ).
Also, if Satan is not in any way a deity, what's up with the final battle of good and evil ?

 

[Jan Ardena]

There is no concept of fallen angels in Islam. Iblis (I think you made a typo) is a Jinn, which roughly equivalent to the Christian concept of demon, though not all jinn are technically evil, some are believers in God as well.

By the way, You and Adstar should watch the link I posted in my previous post. I want to hear your thoughts, it is pretty interesting.

That link is interesting. Thanks.

jan.

 

[Oli]

evil intelligence (pleonasm ? ).

:spank:


Too much Hollywood!

 

[Enmos]

:spank:


Too much Hollywood!

You hit the nail on the head. However, it's not just Hollywood. Think about it, what constitutes a monster ?

 

[Oli]

Teratogeny?

 

[Enmos]

Teratogeny?

Only if it's intelligent. All mythical monsters are intelligent..
And, of course, that it so because monsters are a reflection of human nature, which is the whole purpose of monsters.

 

[Oli]

Hydra?
Cyclops?
Cerberus?
Pfft, they couldn't even add 2 and 2.
How about: intelligence is outside the "norm" and therefore to be feared?

 

[Enmos]

Hydra?
Cyclops?
Cerberus?
Pfft, they couldn't even add 2 and 2.
How about: intelligence is outside the "norm" and therefore to be feared?

Ok, how about this: Monsters are the caricaturistic embodiment of the human psyche.

 

[Oli]

Mainly, but the intelligent = evil thing doesn't equate with monsters.
Monsters are usually animals (or just barely smarter than).

 

[Enmos]

Mainly, but the intelligent = evil thing doesn't equate with monsters.
Monsters are usually animals (or just barely smarter than).

They are animals, or animal-like, creatures with human properties. More often than not those properties include human-like intelligence.

 

[Oli]

So how does human-like intelligence come around to better than "normal" intelligence in humans being evil?
Or wasn't that your point?
Did you just mean having any intelligence at all is evil?
It does confer the "ability" to be evil, granted, but also the ability to be really good.
It's a Hollywood-pushed theme that being really intelligent = being evil, generally.
Better to be dumb than smart.

 

[Enmos]

So how does human-like intelligence come around to better than "normal" intelligence in humans being evil?
Or wasn't that your point?
Did you just mean having any intelligence at all is evil?
It does confer the "ability" to be evil, granted, but also the ability to be really good.
It's a Hollywood-pushed theme that being really intelligent = being evil, generally.
Better to be dumb than smart.

No, my point was that without intelligence one cannot be evil.
In other words: intelligence correlates with the capacity, or potential, of being evil.

By the way, I found this interesting etymology of the word 'monster':

The English word monster can be traced back to various etymological roots. The Latin 'monstrum' means 'that which teaches', and there is also another connection to 'monstrare', to show. Both Latin words derive from the same base 'monere', to warn. The theme of teaching or guiding is thus implicit in the etymology, with the English word 'demonstrate' turning out to be a cousin of 'monster' in that the Latin 'demonstratum' is a past participle of 'demonstrare', which means 'to point out, indicate, show or prove'.
http://www.feedback.nildram.co.uk/richardebbs/essays/monsters.htm

 

[Oli]

No, my point was that without intelligence one cannot be evil.
In other words: intelligence correlates with the capacity, or potential, of being evil.

It does confer the "ability" to be evil, granted, but also the ability to be really good.

The monstrum etymology is interesting, I didn't know that.
Thanks.
Also means the demonstrate joke earlier in this thread was a daft as it looked...

 

[Enmos]

About your quote: Yep, so we kind of agree at least
Now, wouldn't it reasonably follow from that premise that the most intelligence species is also the most evil species ?

The monstrum etymology is interesting, I didn't know that.
Thanks.
Also means the demonstrate joke earlier in this thread was a daft as it looked...

Monsters are created to address some kind of problem, usually with the human psyche. Therefor, it's only natural that they possess human qualities.
If a monster is able to talk, contemplate etc., that indicates human-like intelligence to me.

 

[Oli]

Now, wouldn't it reasonably follow from that premise that the most intelligence species is also the most evil species ?

Has the most capacity for evil, certainly.
And also the most capacity for good.

Monsters are created to address some kind of problem, usually with the human psyche. Therefor, it's only natural that they possess human qualities.
If a monster is able to talk, contemplate etc., that indicates human-like intelligence to me.

Or conversely monsters ARE humans but in a different form to indicate even to the idiots listening to the story that they're either A) evil or B) outside of human events and thus able to pass as a reliable source of knowledge necessary to the protagonist.

 

[Enmos]

Has the most capacity for evil, certainly.
And also the most capacity for good.

Yes, but in practice, whenever A has the highest capacity for B, doesn't that usually mean that, on average, A shows the highest occurrence of B ?

Or conversely monsters ARE humans but in a different form to indicate even to the idiots listening to the story that they're either A) evil or B) outside of human events and thus able to pass as a reliable source of knowledge necessary to the protagonist.

Agreed

 

[Enmos]

Furthermore, I hold that, since humans are the ones defining 'evil', only humans can be evil.
Or at least only species that can understand our definition of 'evil', which leaves us, on this planet, with only humans.
And even if other species could understand our definition, they would only be evil from our perspective.

 

[Oli]

Certainly.
Evil AND goodness

 

[Oli]

Furthermore, I hold that, since humans are the ones defining 'evil', only humans can be evil.
Or at least only species that can understand our definition of 'evil', which leaves us, on this planet, with only humans.

Pah, :bravo::truce:

And of course we're good as well.