Rules of War in the Quran

S.A.M.

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
The rules of war were revealed to Mohammed when the Muslim community had been evicted and was under attack in Medina.

[Quran 2:190-195]

190. You may fight in the way of God, those who attack you, but do not be excessively aggressive. God does not love aggressors.

191. You may kill those who are attacking you and evict those who have evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them in the Sacred Mosque, unless they attack you there. If they do attack you first, you may kill them. This is a just retribution for those disbelievers.

192. If they refrain, then God is forgiving and merciful.

193. You may also fight them to eliminate oppression and so that you may worship freely; if they refrain, then do not aggress: aggression is only allowed against the aggressors.

194. During the Sacred Months, an aggression may be met with an equitable response. If they attack you, you may retaliate through an equivalent retribution. You must observe God and know that the God is with the righteous.

195. You shall spend in the cause of God, do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable, God loves the charitable.

Verses 190-191; 192-195

Questions and Comments?
 
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I think, then, Q's quote deserves a response. At least put the quote in context and explain how the wording, which is pretty straightforward, can be mis-interpreted:
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. Kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there. If they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith.
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~String
 
Anything that is quoted in bits and pieces and without a direct translation can be misinterpreted. :p

But since you brought it up

Note the difference between:

You may kill those who are attacking you and Kill them wherever you catch them

The word there Thaqif, is used as a synonym for confront. But it could also refer to the tribe Thaqif which was one of the tribes attacking the Muslims.

So it could be: You may kill the Thaqifs, or you may kill those who confront you. Its difficult to know.

Although, it is difficult to know how to misinterpret fight those who fight you. That is pretty straightforward any which way you look at it.
 
Interesting.

While I generally agree that one has to look at an entire book (as in a book of the Bible) to understand its individual passages, and that they generally have a metaphorical meaning that cannot be conveyed without an understanding of the original culture and language, I still have trouble grasping some of the very direct passages in either the Bible or the Koran.

A great example is the one used by Catholics and explained to me by a protestant friend (who's a Jewish/Hebrew scholar): "Upon this rock [Peter], I shall build my church." Catholics think that it means that whatever Peter started (aka, the Catholic Church) was the right and holy church of Christ. But the problem is that the original phrase comes from an Aramaic blessing "Upon this rock," which one utters at the beginning of anything important. It carries meaning, "Starting today there is a new beginning which will endure and grow for all time." It was uttered in wedding ceremonies, "Upon this rock begins a new family, a new line of Jacob," and at the founding of new alliances and treaties, "Upon this rock, begins a new friendship/alliance/treaty." It has less to do with uniqueness than it does with new beginnings.

So, in this way, I do understand that in translating from the Arabic from fourteen-hundred years ago, to modern English, one might lose critical meanings. Moreover, I would imagine that a person (like with Aramaic and Greek in the Bible) would have to understand the cultural idiosyncrasies of ancient Arabia to grasp the idiomatic expressions.

Sadly, I don't think that enough Islamic scholars look at things this way. Sometimes a direct translation just doesn't work, which is why we've ended up with the Ayatollah shutting down elections in Iran or Wahabis relegating women to second class citizens.

~String
 
Unfortunately, it also specifies that any such conflict can only end with the death of the 'enemy', with their conversion or with their "oppression": the threefold choice. "Let them feel oppressed" (Q 9: 29). So what constitutes the functional endpoint? The kuffar to your immediate front? The ones in the entire nation? The ones in the entire world? And when is this oppression to be lifted? Certainly seems to have gone on long enough in most places. It astounds me that people still doubt the veracity of the word dhimmitude when it's written right in the Qu'ran. This too:

190. You may fight in the way of God, those who attack you, but do not be excessively aggressive. God does not love aggressors.

How excessive is excessive?

191. You may kill those who are attacking you and evict those who have evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them in the Sacred Mosque, unless they attack you there. If they do attack you first, you may kill them. This is a just retribution for those disbelievers.

Oppression is worse than murder? Firstly, it's an asinine statement. Murder is clearly worse. Secondly, why is Mohammed/Allah instructing muslims to oppress other "People of the Book" then? I thought oppression was worse than murder, and that such people were meant to be respected? Funny thing religion.
 
Thus my problem with religions in general: too much is left up to the imaginations of the believers. Any person can interpret any scripture to mean just about anything.

~String
 
That reminds me: the explanation for the Cow's promotion of oppression is usually taken in the way that it will "prevent future generations of infidels from learning takfir" or the like, which isn't particularly enlightened.
 
Sadly, I don't think that enough Islamic scholars look at things this way
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There aren't enough Islamic scholars who study this. But a lot of people are getting back into this. Unfortunately there is no shortage of people who use these things to manipulate people.
 
Oppression is worse than murder: this is agreed upon by all civilised peoples. Which is why every nation has an army.
 
I'd also disagree with your posture of all that crap in Cow as being defensive: the first 20 ayah are all about how shitty the unbelievers are. It leads into the proclamations of war.
 
GeoffP said:
That reminds me: the explanation for the Cow's promotion of oppression is usually taken in the way that it will "prevent future generations of infidels from learning takfir" or the like, which isn't particularly enlightened.
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That doesn't even make sense as a sentence. But never mind, I'm not going to bother to correct your "knowledge" in any case.
 
S.A.M. said:
That doesn't even make sense as a sentence. But never mind, I'm not going to bother to correct your "knowledge" in any case.
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Actually I got the explanation from one of your old links to USC's MSA website about Sura 2, until you darted off when you realized what it said. :D So that would be your "knowledge". Maybe you should call them?
 
Its very simple: its called self defence.

as Gandhi said: to tolerate oppression is a worse crime than to oppress.

I'm guessing you've never been oppressed to that extent and can thus throw around meaningless self righteous phrases.
 
GeoffP said:
Actually I got the explanation from one of your old links to USC's MSA website about Sura 2, until you darted off when you realized what it said. :D So that would be your "knowledge". Maybe you should call them?
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No you did not. Takfir means to call a person a kafir. You're COMPLETELY clueless.
 
S.A.M. said:
Its very simple: its called self defence.
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But again: why oppress? You recall that MSA link, yes?

as Gandhi said: to tolerate oppression is a worse crime than to oppress.
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So...is Allah worse than Mohammed for allowing it to happen then? I'm not sure what you're saying.

I'm guessing you've never been oppressed to that extent
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Of course not. I'm not a Copt living in bloody Egypt, you know. :bugeye: And I'd prefer to stay that way.
 
S.A.M. said:
No you did not. Takfir means to call a person a kafir. You're COMPLETELY clueless.
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Whatever. :shrug: Still was your link. :D So: what do you think about their explanation? Agree or disagree?
 
Do I agree that your notion of an explanation is that al Baqarah is to prevent future generations of infidels from learning to call other people kafir by Islamic law? Can't have an opinion on gibberish.

Let me see the link.
 
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