I think any one who argues for as he knows how life started is an ignorant of biochemistry
Richard Dawkins Again Refuses Debate With Christian Apologist William Craig
- Thread starter Mind Over Matter
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I think any one who argues for as he knows how life started is an ignorant of biochemistry
Why are bringing colloid into the discussion are you trying to impress some one. I really don't see were it fits
Craig isn't stupid. You can't legitimately say that he is. Rather, he's quite a smart cookie. If he wasn't a theist he would be bringing his considerable intelligence to bear on other matters. As it stands it is simply manifesting as a sophisticated theological framework bootstrapped by faith. As he himself has said:
Craig is also a Christian who believes that Jesus is the only legitimate way to God. If he happened to be Muslim, I'm sure he'd be bringing his intelligence to bear on developing a justification for accepting that as the one true faith instead.
Craig is also a Christian who believes that Jesus is the only legitimate way to God. If he happened to be Muslim, I'm sure he'd be bringing his intelligence to bear on developing a justification for accepting that as the one true faith instead.
There are a number of reasonable scenarios that fit with known science.
Could you be more specific or give some reference , otherwise is a hand waving
A new scenario for first life on Earth
Science Centric
— 22 November 2007 | 20:17 GMT
A team led by the University of Colorado at Boulder and the University of Milan has discovered some unexpected forms of liquid crystals of ultra-short DNA molecules immersed in water, providing a new scenario for a key step in the emergence of life on Earth.
CU-Boulder physics Professor Noel Clark said the team found that surprisingly short segments of DNA, life’s molecular carrier of genetic information, could assemble into several distinct liquid crystal phases that ‘self-orient’ parallel to one another and stack into columns when placed in a water solution. Life is widely believed to have emerged as segments of DNA- or RNA-like molecules in a prebiotic ‘soup’ solution of ancient organic molecules.
A paper on the subject was published in the 23 November issue of Science. The paper was authored by Clark, Michi Nakata and Christopher Jones from CU-Boulder, Giuliano Zanchetta and Tommaso Bellini of the University of Milan, Brandon Chapman and Ronald Pindak of Brookhaven National Laboratory and Julie Cross of Argonne National Laboratory. Nakata died in September 2006.
Since the formation of molecular chains as uniform as DNA by random chemistry is essentially impossible, Clark said, scientists have been seeking effective ways for simple molecules to spontaneously self-select, ‘chain-up’ and self-replicate. The new study shows that in a mixture of tiny fragments of DNA, those molecules capable of forming liquid crystals selectively condense into droplets in which conditions are favourable for them to be chemically linked into longer molecules with enhanced liquid crystal-forming tendencies, he said.
‘We found that even tiny fragments of double helix DNA can spontaneously self-assemble into columns that contain many molecules,’ Clark said. ‘Our vision is that from the collection of ancient molecules, short RNA pieces or some structurally related precursor emerged as the molecular fragments most capable of condensing into liquid crystal droplets, selectively developing into long molecules.’
Liquid crystals — organic materials related to soap that exhibit both solid and liquid properties — are commonly used for information displays in computers, flat-panel televisions, cell phones, calculators and watches. Most liquid crystal phase molecules are rod-shaped and have the ability to spontaneously form large domains of a common orientation, which makes them particularly sensitive to stimuli like changes in temperature or applied voltage.
RNA and DNA are chain-like polymers with side groups known as nucleotides, or bases, that selectively adhere only to specific bases on a second chain. Matching, or complementary base sequences enable the chains to pair up and form the widely recognised double helix structure. Genetic information is encoded in sequences of thousands to millions of bases along the chains, which can be microns to millimetres in length.
Such DNA polynucleotides had previously been shown to organise into liquid crystal phases in which the chains spontaneously oriented parallel to each other, he said. Researchers understand the liquid crystal organisation to be a result of DNA’s elongated molecular shape, making parallel alignment easier, much like spaghetti thrown in a box and shaken would be prone to line up in parallel, Clark said.
The CU-Boulder and University of Milan team began a series of experiments to see how short the DNA segments could be and still show liquid crystal ordering, said Clark. The team found that even a DNA segment as short as six bases, when paired with a complementary segment that together measured just two nanometers long and two nanometers in diameter, could still assemble itself into the liquid crystal phases, in spite of having almost no elongation in shape.
Structural analysis of the liquid crystal phases showed that they appeared because such short DNA duplex pairs were able to stick together ‘end-to-end,’ forming rod-shaped aggregates that could then behave like much longer segments of DNA. The sticking was a result of small, oily patches found on the ends of the short DNA segments that help them adhere to each other in a reversible way — much like magnetic buttons — as they expelled water in between them, Clark said.
A key characterisation technique employed was X-ray microbeam diffraction combined with in-situ optical microscopy, carried out with researchers from Argonne and Brookhaven National Laboratories. The team using a machine called the Argonne Advanced Photon Source synchrotron that enabled probing of the ‘nano DNA’ molecular organisation in single liquid crystal orientation domains only a few microns in size. The experiments provided direct evidence for the columnar stacking of the nano DNA pieces in a fluid liquid crystal phase.
‘The key observation with respect to early life is that this aggregation of nano DNA strands is possible only if they form duplexes,’ Clark said. ‘In a sample of chains in which the bases don’t match and the chains can’t form helical duplexes, we did not observe liquid crystal ordering.’
Subsequent tests by the team involved mixed solutions of complementary and non-complementary DNA segments, said Clark. The results indicated that essentially all of the complementary DNA bits condensed out in the form of liquid crystal droplets, physically separating them from the non-complementary DNA segments.
‘We found this to be a remarkable result,’ Clark said. ‘It means that small molecules with the ability to pair up the right way can seek each other out and collect together into drops that are internally self-organised to facilitate the growth of larger pairable molecules.
‘In essence, the liquid crystal phase condensation selects the appropriate molecular components, and with the right chemistry would evolve larger molecules tuned to stabilise the liquid crystal phase. If this is correct, the linear polymer shape of DNA itself is a vestige of formation by liquid crystal order.’
Science Centric
— 22 November 2007 | 20:17 GMT
A team led by the University of Colorado at Boulder and the University of Milan has discovered some unexpected forms of liquid crystals of ultra-short DNA molecules immersed in water, providing a new scenario for a key step in the emergence of life on Earth.
CU-Boulder physics Professor Noel Clark said the team found that surprisingly short segments of DNA, life’s molecular carrier of genetic information, could assemble into several distinct liquid crystal phases that ‘self-orient’ parallel to one another and stack into columns when placed in a water solution. Life is widely believed to have emerged as segments of DNA- or RNA-like molecules in a prebiotic ‘soup’ solution of ancient organic molecules.
A paper on the subject was published in the 23 November issue of Science. The paper was authored by Clark, Michi Nakata and Christopher Jones from CU-Boulder, Giuliano Zanchetta and Tommaso Bellini of the University of Milan, Brandon Chapman and Ronald Pindak of Brookhaven National Laboratory and Julie Cross of Argonne National Laboratory. Nakata died in September 2006.
Since the formation of molecular chains as uniform as DNA by random chemistry is essentially impossible, Clark said, scientists have been seeking effective ways for simple molecules to spontaneously self-select, ‘chain-up’ and self-replicate. The new study shows that in a mixture of tiny fragments of DNA, those molecules capable of forming liquid crystals selectively condense into droplets in which conditions are favourable for them to be chemically linked into longer molecules with enhanced liquid crystal-forming tendencies, he said.
‘We found that even tiny fragments of double helix DNA can spontaneously self-assemble into columns that contain many molecules,’ Clark said. ‘Our vision is that from the collection of ancient molecules, short RNA pieces or some structurally related precursor emerged as the molecular fragments most capable of condensing into liquid crystal droplets, selectively developing into long molecules.’
Liquid crystals — organic materials related to soap that exhibit both solid and liquid properties — are commonly used for information displays in computers, flat-panel televisions, cell phones, calculators and watches. Most liquid crystal phase molecules are rod-shaped and have the ability to spontaneously form large domains of a common orientation, which makes them particularly sensitive to stimuli like changes in temperature or applied voltage.
RNA and DNA are chain-like polymers with side groups known as nucleotides, or bases, that selectively adhere only to specific bases on a second chain. Matching, or complementary base sequences enable the chains to pair up and form the widely recognised double helix structure. Genetic information is encoded in sequences of thousands to millions of bases along the chains, which can be microns to millimetres in length.
Such DNA polynucleotides had previously been shown to organise into liquid crystal phases in which the chains spontaneously oriented parallel to each other, he said. Researchers understand the liquid crystal organisation to be a result of DNA’s elongated molecular shape, making parallel alignment easier, much like spaghetti thrown in a box and shaken would be prone to line up in parallel, Clark said.
The CU-Boulder and University of Milan team began a series of experiments to see how short the DNA segments could be and still show liquid crystal ordering, said Clark. The team found that even a DNA segment as short as six bases, when paired with a complementary segment that together measured just two nanometers long and two nanometers in diameter, could still assemble itself into the liquid crystal phases, in spite of having almost no elongation in shape.
Structural analysis of the liquid crystal phases showed that they appeared because such short DNA duplex pairs were able to stick together ‘end-to-end,’ forming rod-shaped aggregates that could then behave like much longer segments of DNA. The sticking was a result of small, oily patches found on the ends of the short DNA segments that help them adhere to each other in a reversible way — much like magnetic buttons — as they expelled water in between them, Clark said.
A key characterisation technique employed was X-ray microbeam diffraction combined with in-situ optical microscopy, carried out with researchers from Argonne and Brookhaven National Laboratories. The team using a machine called the Argonne Advanced Photon Source synchrotron that enabled probing of the ‘nano DNA’ molecular organisation in single liquid crystal orientation domains only a few microns in size. The experiments provided direct evidence for the columnar stacking of the nano DNA pieces in a fluid liquid crystal phase.
‘The key observation with respect to early life is that this aggregation of nano DNA strands is possible only if they form duplexes,’ Clark said. ‘In a sample of chains in which the bases don’t match and the chains can’t form helical duplexes, we did not observe liquid crystal ordering.’
Subsequent tests by the team involved mixed solutions of complementary and non-complementary DNA segments, said Clark. The results indicated that essentially all of the complementary DNA bits condensed out in the form of liquid crystal droplets, physically separating them from the non-complementary DNA segments.
‘We found this to be a remarkable result,’ Clark said. ‘It means that small molecules with the ability to pair up the right way can seek each other out and collect together into drops that are internally self-organised to facilitate the growth of larger pairable molecules.
‘In essence, the liquid crystal phase condensation selects the appropriate molecular components, and with the right chemistry would evolve larger molecules tuned to stabilise the liquid crystal phase. If this is correct, the linear polymer shape of DNA itself is a vestige of formation by liquid crystal order.’
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
I doubt it. The two of them would probably quickly reach an impasse.
That's because first, they would be arguing from very different presuppositions.
For example, Craig's so-called 'Kalam' argument, like Aquinas' version of the 'five ways', depends on both sides agreeing to argue in terms of ancient metaphysical concepts that are controversial, to say the least. That would require a great deal of preliminary clarification and examination that probably wouldn't even be possible in a live-action real-time debate format.
And second, because each of them would be trying to control the topic of debate so as to favor themselves.
Dawkins would want to attack the naturalistic empirical basis of Craig's religious beliefs, while Craig would want to make Dawkins look totally ignorant about obscure technical issues of Christian history and doctrine. So both of them would emphasize their own strong points, and neither one of them would want to get trapped into addressing the other's issues where they would be at a disadvantage.
They would talk right past each other.
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Like in boxing, the manager and handlers want their fighter to have the best record, since it allows more money at the box office. To do this, they will often arrange fights with fighters of moderate skills and records. This gives their fighter practice and help make his record look better.
There are certain fighters they will try to avoid, as long as possible, since if he knocks out their fighter, it could set all of them back months of years. It looks better on paper to remain a 30-0 fighter (with easy fights) than 20-10 fighting only the best, since people won't normally look too deep into an undefeated record.
Personally, Dawkins might want to fight, but his handlers fear him being knocked into next tuesday. There goes the gravy train.
There are certain fighters they will try to avoid, as long as possible, since if he knocks out their fighter, it could set all of them back months of years. It looks better on paper to remain a 30-0 fighter (with easy fights) than 20-10 fighting only the best, since people won't normally look too deep into an undefeated record.
Personally, Dawkins might want to fight, but his handlers fear him being knocked into next tuesday. There goes the gravy train.
They do that already.
Dawkins could, however, use religious diversity to his advantage and invite debaters from different theistic denominations (each of whom has, of course, claimed to be exclusively right), and confront them on their differences.
That ought to be fun!
Nonsense. His time is too valuable to waste on every charlatan.
Dawkins is undoubtedly on a mission, and to accept the challenge of
Craig-Lane, and make him look stupid, would help his missionary.
Don't you think?
jan.
He's been there, done that. Who is this guy Craig anyway? A nobody as far as I can see. Why doesn't Dawkins debate Jan Ardena, that's what I want to know. Why is he avoiding Sciforums?
kx000
Valued Senior Member
Trick question. He who hath a ear.
Wow Spidey . You been following the vibrational rise of matter concepts. Coupled with crystals converting sound waves to electromagnetic waves . You got a missing link my man . Thank you Thank you very much .
Dyw Where are you . You should see this
Mind Over Matter
Registered Senior Member
There's probably no dawkins. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
spidergoat,
Hmmm! Denial!
There's a whiff of fanatacism in the air.
jan.
Hmmm! Denial!
There's a whiff of fanatacism in the air.
jan.