Render Unto Caesar

[Medicine*Woman]

They are\were just mostly poor people, dont pick on them.

*************
M*W: Not necessarily. The war criminals had backing from the Nazi Party to relocate them to South and Central America to avoid prosecution.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

We are to disagree with and withdraw our co-operation with civil authority when that Authority commands us to do something that would place us in rebellion against Gods will. We do not have the clearance to seek to overthrow the authorities by violent means.

So the colonists in the America's did not have clearance for the American Revolution.

How about slaves? Do they have the right to violently resist slavery?

An example would be if the civil authorities that have power over me decided that i was to be conscripted into the Army to go and fight in Iraq. I as a Christian cannot take part in War and would refuse to take part. But if the state decided to jail me or execute me for refusing to obey their demands i would only have the option to flee and hide to avoid the penalty, I would not have the clearance to violently resist arrest.

So I assume that christians who have violently resisted against governments were all sinning in you eyes. Even those, for example, Germans who violently resisted the Nazis. Or how about the French Resistance that did not follow the dictates of the Vichy Governement in France? ARe they allowed to decide that the government does not have the authority or moral authority to 'really' be the government and therefore resist them violently?

So a government can tax me to the point of taking everything i have and i must obey and give it all to them, But once they cross the line and tell me that i am not allowed to pray to God or that i must kill some foreigner in the middle east then i must refuse that order and take whatever punishment the authorities deem appropriate.

So taxing you to pay for the war in Iraq, for example, should call out the Christian in you.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

It means just what it says.

No. Jesus' sayings and words have always been taken to indicate much more general rules and to be applicable to a wide range of ethical situations. It would be taking him as extremely naive to take his stories and actions as only related to the exact context. Do you really think Jesus saying 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' as one example amongst thousands was ONLY teaching people about how to act in relation to adulterous women and laws about stoning?
Come on.

 

[Adstar]

So the colonists in the America's did not have clearance for the American Revolution.

That’s right they did not have any clearance from God..

How about slaves? Do they have the right to violently resist slavery?

Not Christian slaves.

So I assume that christians who have violently resisted against governments were all sinning in you eyes. Even those, for example, Germans who violently resisted the Nazis. Or how about the French Resistance that did not follow the dictates of the Vichy Governement in France?

Yes they where going against the teachings of Jesus. How many more angles can you ask the same question from?

ARe they allowed to decide that the government does not have the authority or moral authority to 'really' be the government and therefore resist them violently?

No. Christians must never violently resist any authority irrespective of its policies. God will decide how much rope the satanic authorities on earth will have.

So taxing you to pay for the war in Iraq, for example, should call out the Christian in you.

Well at last a question that has not been answered before.

I am given clear instructions from Jesus to pay whatever taxes are imposed upon me by the authorities on earth. Once the mnoney is in their possession they have the free will to spend it on what ever they like, that includes warfare. They make the decision to spend the money for evil purposes and that is their sin, No sin lies with me in this matter. I did not decide to spend the taxes raised on warfare, I do not have any say in what authorities govern me because i do not vote.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[iceaura]

They are\were just mostly poor people, dont pick on them. ”

*************
M*W: Not necessarily. The war criminals had backing from the Nazi Party to relocate them to South and Central America to avoid prosecution.

And, relevantly, important help and support from the Catholic Christian church in Europe and South America both in personal aid and political support, so that fascist political ideology and organization was imported (as well as home grown) in SA countries.

This is an example of the Church rendering unto various Ceasars what belonged to the Christian God.

 

[John99]

oh yeah! Master of pipe dreams is what you are.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Yes they where going against the teachings of Jesus. How many more angles can you ask the same question from?

Surely you understand what I am doing. I am trying to see if you realize and are comfortable with the consequences of your belief. Also to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Most Christians do not agree with you, which is made clear by the way they support certain wars, look at history, have made clear they would act in relation to secular authority, etc.

I assume you think they are misinterpreting or overlooking Jesus' words on these issues.

No. Christians must never violently resist any authority irrespective of its policies. God will decide how much rope the satanic authorities on earth will have.

So God intervenes on the government level but not on the individual?

Well at last a question that has not been answered before.

I am given clear instructions from Jesus to pay whatever taxes are imposed upon me by the authorities on earth. Once the mnoney is in their possession they have the free will to spend it on what ever they like, that includes warfare. They make the decision to spend the money for evil purposes and that is their sin, No sin lies with me in this matter. I did not decide to spend the taxes raised on warfare, I do not have any say in what authorities govern me because i do not vote.

They have made it clear in advance what they will spend the money on. And there are some people, Christians among them, who withhold that % of taxes spent on the military. I can assume from the above you think they are going against Jesus. I want to point out that the way you worded it above is on the evasive side. It is as if, after they have received the money, they will decide what to do with it. But in fact any American knows that their taxes will be paying for this war - for many years to come for that matter.

I do now see that your position is fairly consistant - again, a fact that separates you from the vast majority of Christians.


I find it strange that Jesus would set it up so that a slave rebelling against a slaveowner is a sinner but the slaveowner is not.

In fact I do not believe that Jesus intended such a possible interpretation and can only assume that some things he said were not passed down and others were perhaps interpreted. And others were meant in very specific contexts - though these have become wide principles in ignorance - and others were meant as more general teaching stories - which in fact many Christians, as you can see by this thread, assume are meant only to have only very limited relevence.

I assume you can't wait to leave this earthly realm.

 

[Adstar]

Surely you understand what I am doing. I am trying to see if you realize and are comfortable with the consequences of your belief. Also to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Most Christians do not agree with you, which is made clear by the way they support certain wars, look at history, have made clear they would act in relation to secular authority, etc.

I assume you think they are misinterpreting or overlooking Jesus' words on these issues.

They are not misinterpreting the Words of Jesus. They are in clear rebellion against the clear Words of Jesus and they are not true Christians. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and supports or takes part in carnal combat/War is Not a Christian at all. On the day of judgement they will be calling out Lord Lord and He will say I never knew you.

So God intervenes on the government level but not on the individual?

God does intervene by limiting the options satan and his followers on earth have to carry out their desires.

God does intervene in the case of individuals. The Bible is full of instances where God intervening in someone’s life.

They have made it clear in advance what they will spend the money on. And there are some people, Christians among them, who withhold that % of taxes spent on the military. I can assume from the above you think they are going against Jesus.

Yes clearly i do think that they are going against the will of Jesus.

I want to point out that the way you worded it above is on the evasive side.

I tried to make it as clear as i could. I think it might be a case of you not being prepared for the answer that has caused you to think i must be evading something somewhere? Whatever the case. I mean what i have said.

It is as if, after they have received the money, they will decide what to do with it. But in fact any American knows that their taxes will be paying for this war - for many years to come for that matter.

Yes both points are true. I am not an american but my government also pays money for war costs in relation to iraq and afghanistan. I am totally against such wars. But i will pay whatever taxes my government demands of me.

I do now see that your position is fairly consistant - again, a fact that separates you from the vast majority of Christians.

The vast majority of "Christians" are not Christian.

I find it strange that Jesus would set it up so that a slave rebelling against a slaveowner is a sinner but the slaveowner is not.

Where did i state that slaveowners are not sinning? Please do not put words into my mouth that i have not said.

In fact I do not believe that Jesus intended such a possible interpretation and can only assume that some things he said were not passed down and others were perhaps interpreted.

I believe the Word of God has been protected by God. But of course all mankind is free to interpret it in a way to attempt to justify their evil intentions.

I assume you can't wait to leave this earthly realm.

Oh i would love to get an early mark from this #*%& hole. But i believe i am here for the long run. So i got to do the best i can with what i have for as long as God wants me to.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

They are not misinterpreting the Words of Jesus. They are in clear rebellion against the clear Words of Jesus and they are not true Christians. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and supports or takes part in carnal combat/War is Not a Christian at all. On the day of judgement they will be calling out Lord Lord and He will say I never knew you.

Are you concerned about how confused and evilly so many Christians are acting?

God does intervene by limiting the options satan and his followers on earth have to carry out their desires.

God does intervene in the case of individuals. The Bible is full of instances where God intervening in someone’s life.

There seems to be a contradiction above. I assume the followers of Satan are individuals. It also seems like, given the definition of a Christian which you have, a great many people, ie. individuals, are followers of satan. Does God intervene in these cases or not?

I tried to make it as clear as i could. I think it might be a case of you not being prepared for the answer that has caused you to think i must be evading something somewhere? Whatever the case. I mean what i have said.

I am given clear instructions from Jesus to pay whatever taxes are imposed upon me by the authorities on earth. Once the mnoney is in their possession they have the free will to spend it on what ever they like, that includes warfare. They make the decision to spend the money for evil purposes and that is their sin, No sin lies with me in this matter. I did not decide to spend the taxes raised on warfare, I do not have any say in what authorities govern me because i do not vote.

The portion I bolded and underlined seems to me to be evasive. The money has already been allotted to the military. The money has already been spent in many cases and certain decisions to support the war machine with that money have already been made. I am not saying you were being evasive, perhaps it was written poorly to fit your intentions. But the decisions have already been made, often, before you send them the money.

Where did i state that slaveowners are not sinning? Please do not put words into my mouth that i have not said.

Good. I think they were highly immoral also. But how do you justify this with the Bible?

Oh i would love to get an early mark from this #*%& hole. But i believe i am here for the long run. So i got to do the best i can with what i have for as long as God wants me to.

This is the sad thing. That this world is consider a #*%& hole by so many religious people.

I do not believe God thinks this is a #*%& hole and it is horrible how we treat it that way.

All Praise Mother Earth

 

[Frud11]

My personal religious opinion is that the planet is about to kick ass, sort of a "you really can't #*%& with this #*%& hole, because it's a planet", kind of learning mode for us.

I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of praising (maybe some praying), but perhaps a dash of awe and respect (something that's been missing from the equation), and even hope for a future of some kind.

 

[Adstar]

Are you concerned about how confused and evilly so many Christians are acting?

I am saddened and frustrated that so many twist the Word and through their actions and teachings cause unbelievers to curse the name of Jesus. It makes giving the message of Jesus very hard. You have to attempt to cut through all the misunderstanding and false impressions in people’s minds before you can get them to a point where they will listen to and consider the true message of Jesus.

There seems to be a contradiction above. I assume the followers of Satan are individuals. It also seems like, given the definition of a Christian which you have, a great many people, ie. individuals, are followers of satan. Does God intervene in these cases or not?

[Preaching/Sermon Deleted]

The portion I bolded and underlined seems to me to be evasive. The money has already been allotted to the military. The money has already been spent in many cases and certain decisions to support the war machine with that money have already been made. I am not saying you were being evasive, perhaps it was written poorly to fit your intentions. But the decisions have already been made, often, before you send them the money.

I do not really understand what your observation has to do with the thing being discussed? It does not matter to me if they have planned to spend the money before or after they get it from me. They are still the ones deciding on how the taxes are spent. Wether they decide before or after they receive the money is irrelevant.

Good. I think they were highly immoral also. But how do you justify this with the Bible?

Jesus made his commandment clear. We are to love our neighbor and also treat others the way we would like them to treat us. This commandment is second only to loving God.

I do not think there would be many slave owners who would like to be treated as a slave?

This is the sad thing. That this world is consider a #*%& hole by so many religious people.

No it is a good thing. People who are satisfied with an evil situation are sad. We followers of Jesus look forward to the perfect renewed world to come where justice and love will reign supreme. People who are happy with pol pot, radiation contamination, global warning, jihad and child molestation are the sad cases.

I do not believe God thinks this is a #*%& hole and it is horrible how we treat it that way.

The present state of human existence is no where near what it will be and therefore in comparison with what it will be the current situation is a #*%& hole. Anything less than perfection is unacceptable to God.

All Praise Mother Earth

Worshiping the created is vanity. You belong to the group of people who are deceived by satan without knowing it. Earth is not a mother it is a conglomeration of matter and that’s it. This mother you praise does not exist.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nova900]

I am saddened and frustrated that so many twist the Word and through their actions and teachings cause unbelievers to curse the name of Jesus. It makes giving the message of Jesus very hard. You have to attempt to cut through all the misunderstanding and false impressions in people’s minds before you can get them to a point where they will listen to and consider the true message of Jesus.

By what criteria can we determine that the "true message of Jesus" was never changed or corrupted by man from the very beggining??
How can we be sure the bible in it's present form reflects the true intent of Jesus?

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Worshiping the created is vanity.

How funny that a male God gives birth to creatures in his image and yet the female in his image is the one who gives birth. It is sad that you have been taught to love the transcendant at the expense of the immanent. May you find peace in transcendance, and soon.

You belong to the group of people who are deceived by satan without knowing it. Earth is not a mother it is a conglomeration of matter and that’s it. This mother you praise does not exist.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Revolvr]

They are not misinterpreting the Words of Jesus. They are in clear rebellion against the clear Words of Jesus and they are not true Christians. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and supports or takes part in carnal combat/War is Not a Christian at all. On the day of judgement they will be calling out Lord Lord and He will say I never knew you.

Adstar,

Your are being very self-righteous and judgmental here. This is very un-Christian like. You do not know what is in the hearts and souls of those who fight in wars. While some may fight for profit, many fight to end tyranny and oppression, to stop the extermination of others. Only God may judge. Not you.

This strong judgmental self-righteous kind of Christian is precisely the kind of Christian others' on this forum love to hate.

I won't give you a sermon on this as our Omnipotent Moderator would scrub it. But off the top of my head I would look at Luke 18 and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.

 

[Adstar]

By what criteria can we determine that the "true message of Jesus" was never changed or corrupted by man from the very beggining??
How can we be sure the bible in it's present form reflects the true intent of Jesus?

The amazing thing and it is a kind of black miracle is that the Bible did not have to be altered for people to embrace a twisted interpretation of the Words of Jesus.

Just look around you. catholics, eastern orthodox, most protestant churches and Revolvr above support the unbiblical and anti-christ doctrine of justifiable war. A doctrine that was made by men to conform mankind to the desires of the powers on this world rather than the Will of God as expressed through Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

Your are being very self-righteous and judgmental here.

What do you mean self-righteous and judgemental? Are you feeling convicted here revolvr???? I am giving the Message of the Messiah Jesus here revolvr you can hate me for it if you like and you can hate Jesus for giving it too.

This is very un-Christian like.

Nope it is very true Christian like to give the Word of Jesus without compromising it to allow others to feel justified in their rebellion against the Words of the Lord Jesus.

You do not know what is in the hearts and souls of those who fight in wars. While some may fight for profit, many fight to end tyranny and oppression, to stop the extermination of others. Only God may judge. Not you.

What is in their hearts is irrelevant. If Jesus is Lord to them then they will seek to follow His will on a matter out of trust and Love for Him and they will not lash out like a false accuser when the Love of the truth is brought to their attention. They will leave all judgement of evil ones to God.

This strong judgmental self-righteous kind of Christian is precisely the kind of Christian others' on this forum love to hate.

Yes many Love to hate here. And i see now that you have joined them.

I won't give you a sermon on this as our Omnipotent Moderator would scrub it. But off the top of my head I would look at Luke 18 and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.

I would also ask you to read the Beatitudes and I will ask the Holy Spirit to bring conviction to your conscience.

Remember revolvr Jesus is Both Lord and Redeemer, not just the Redeemer.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days