Render Unto Caesar

ashura said:
Ah, so by enforcing a law that commands Christians to disobey God, "Caesar" has trespassed on God's domain and in that instance, Christians are allowed to disagree/revolt? As opposed to say if the government was simply taxing ridiculously high amounts, something which is still under Caesar's domain and Christians should obey.

Did I get the gist of it right?

(Heh, I wonder if that means Christian income tax protesters who refuse to pay the income tax are guilty of not listening to Jesus.)
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If they refuse to pay taxes then they are in revolt against Jesus.

We are to disagree with and withdraw our co-operation with civil authority when that Authority commands us to do something that would place us in rebellion against Gods will. We do not have the clearance to seek to overthrow the authorities by violent means.

An example would be if the civil authorities that have power over me decided that i was to be conscripted into the Army to go and fight in Iraq. I as a Christian cannot take part in War and would refuse to take part. But if the state decided to jail me or execute me for refusing to obey their demands i would only have the option to flee and hide to avoid the penalty, I would not have the clearance to violently resist arrest.

So a government can tax me to the point of taking everything i have and i must obey and give it all to them, But once they cross the line and tell me that i am not allowed to pray to God or that i must kill some foreigner in the middle east then i must refuse that order and take whatever punishment the authorities deem appropriate.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Revolvr said:
Christians therefore, for conscience’ sake, obey the government that rules over them unless that government commands them to disobey God.

For some references, see Romans 13, Acts 5, 1 Timothy 2
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Ah so when the government installs people in Abu Ghraib, the Christians do not revolt because God approves of Abu Ghraib?

Similarly they were complicit in the Holocaust because the church approved of it?
 
S.A.M. said:
Ah so when the government installs people in Abu Ghraib, the Christians do not revolt because God approves of Abu Ghraib?

Similarly they were complicit in the Holocaust because the church approved of it?
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First of all, I think few Christians would clearly reply to such questions with a "yes".
Unfortunately, a "yes" seems the unavoidable answer.

The workings of the Christian Church in the World Wars is something you should look into, then. Although accounts and interpretations vary, the Catholic Church generally is known to have cooperated with the Nazi and Fascist regimes that occupied many countries then. The Catholic priests and establishment are known to have summoned people of occupied countries to collaborate with the occupator and have reported rebels who were then executed by the Nazi and Fascist regimes.
 
Just Christians GREENBERG. Yeah lets look into them and get our little torches out, get your pitchfork out Greenberg....burn 'em at the stake. Turn them into the SS Greenberg.
 
S.Am, it is simply about the SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Do you believe in the concept? Maybe that is why you dont understand it.
 
John99 said:
Just Christians GREENBERG. Yeah lets look into them and get our little torches out, get your pitchfork out Greenberg....burn 'em at the stake. Turn them into the SS Greenberg.
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What is your point?

This thread is about Christians, not about everyone else who might have done some similar things as they.
 
John99 said:
And who would 'they' be, who 'might' have? Lets not talk about them?:shrug:
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During the World Wars, it wasn't only the Christians who collaborated with the Nazi and Fascist aggressors, other people did too.
It seemed that you were criticizing me for focusing only on the Christian collaborators, when in fact there were more people who collaborated.

Still, you haven't said what your point is with that remark -

"Just Christians GREENBERG. Yeah lets look into them and get our little torches out, get your pitchfork out Greenberg....burn 'em at the stake. Turn them into the SS Greenberg."

What are you trying to say?
 
greenberg said:
During the World Wars, it wasn't only the Christians who collaborated with the Nazi and Fascist aggressors, other people did too.
It seemed that you were criticizing me for focusing only on the Christian collaborators, when in fact there were more people who collaborated.

Still, you haven't said what your point is with that remark -

"Just Christians GREENBERG. Yeah lets look into them and get our little torches out, get your pitchfork out Greenberg....burn 'em at the stake. Turn them into the SS Greenberg."

What are you trying to say?
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You just said it all Greenberg. And it is very different from what you said two posts earlier.

The workings of the Christian Church in the World Wars is something you should look into, then. Although accounts and interpretations vary, the Catholic Church generally is known to have cooperated with the Nazi and Fascist regimes that occupied many countries then. The Catholic priests and establishment are known to have summoned people of occupied countries to collaborate with the occupator and have reported rebels who were then executed by the Nazi and Fascist regimes.
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Germany was allied with Japan and Italy (ONLY because of Mussolini) - Axis. The U.S, U.K, Canada and other countries people call Christian (becacause, at the time, the were inhabited by Christians) fought them. So exactly what were the workings of the Christian church???????

Have you seriously studied history?
 
John99 said:
You just said it all Greenberg. And it is very different from what you said two posts earlier.
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Read again:

Although accounts and interpretations vary, the Catholic Church generally is known to have cooperated with the Nazi and Fascist regimes that occupied many countries then. The Catholic priests and establishment are known to have summoned people of occupied countries to collaborate with the occupator and have reported rebels who were then executed by the Nazi and Fascist regimes.
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I was talking about the workings of the Christian Church in the countries occupied by the Nazi and Fascist regimes.
 
greenberg said:
I was talking about the workings of the Christian Church in the countries occupied by the Nazi and Fascist regimes.
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So then talk about it. The way Christians in occupied countries viewed the Nazi's was 'who is next' but they already were seeing who was NEXT.
 
John99 said:
So then talk about it. The way Christians in occupied countries viewed the Nazi's was 'who is next' but they already were seeing who was NEXT.
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Accounts on the role of the Christian Church in the World Wars vary. While some see the Church's collaboration with the aggressor as an uncomfortable truth, a stain on the Church's reputation, others hold that it was the right thing to do and that it was wrong to cooperate with the Allies.
 
Who was it that said this:

the average person is more likely to believe a big lie than a small one because they themselves are prone to tell a small white lie but not a big lie.
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SAM said:
My question is:

when Jesus preached,

"Render unto Caessar what is Caesars and unto God what is Gods"

does this mean, killing or torturing people is okay if your Caesar demands it?
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It means the exact opposite.

The Catholic Church's complicity in the Nazi regime's abuses did not end with WWII, but extended to South and Central America and other refuges for the Reich's officials and political philosophies. The anti-Jewish bigotries so deeply rooted in Eastern European Catholicism also embedded in the totalitarian states of Communist Europe, so the horrors of the various Holocausts cannot be laid solely at the doors of the Ceasars involved: the Priests had their roles.
 
S.A.M. said:
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Who decides what is Caesar's?
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In practical terms it has been the priests and deacons etc. who interpret and guide groups to get involved in government matter. Also certain,sometimes charismatic, leaders who are Christian and do decide to move into 'secular' realms.
But often people are told not to get involved, and the church has supported many repressive regimes. Individual priests and reverends have, of course, been exceptions - see, for example, liberation theology, south america - and this has often gotten them in trouble with their church authorities.

There is a sense in which Christianity encourages people to simply do their best as moral creatures and to NOT challenge authority.
 
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