Render Unto Caesar
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
Even in western countries, democracy is a fairly loose term. Example: If allowed a public vote, most countries would opt for the death penalty by an overwhelming margin. But this is an example of politicians knowing what is good for us, so not allowing us to vote on it.
Germany was a country climbing out of terrible poverty and Hitler unified them and got the country back on it's feet. He never wanted war originally. He wanted a path to the sea, so decided to annexe some land.
In the 1930's a History Channel showed us that the Jews were friends with Hitler. They drank together in bars, and bought his paintings. They were unfortunately the scapegoats he needed to accomplish what he wanted as money lenders, rich people and people who keep to themselves as a race (how the Jews were perceived) are not liked. Hitler used the bible quotes from Jesus and his disciples against the Jews, as the people who had killed Jesus, to inflame further hatred against them.
I think the actual quote was used to show that christianity was not a threat to the government of the day (Rome), who would have crushed them if they saw them as such.
Germany was a country climbing out of terrible poverty and Hitler unified them and got the country back on it's feet. He never wanted war originally. He wanted a path to the sea, so decided to annexe some land.
In the 1930's a History Channel showed us that the Jews were friends with Hitler. They drank together in bars, and bought his paintings. They were unfortunately the scapegoats he needed to accomplish what he wanted as money lenders, rich people and people who keep to themselves as a race (how the Jews were perceived) are not liked. Hitler used the bible quotes from Jesus and his disciples against the Jews, as the people who had killed Jesus, to inflame further hatred against them.
I think the actual quote was used to show that christianity was not a threat to the government of the day (Rome), who would have crushed them if they saw them as such.
Not only that.
It can easily be argued that what the Nazis did was God testing his people; ie. the Nazis were the "plague" that was meant to test everyone's faith in God.
The Christians and the Jews who declare to believe in God have no right to complain or demand retribution about what was done to them by the Nazis.
Why declare to believe in God, but then when the going gets tough, revert to secular humanism?!
There's evidence the idea was planted after Hitler was returning to some sort of existence after the first war, and he heard people raving away on street corners about how all the problems were because of the people with all the money and wealth, i.e. the merchants, and Jews. He was disillusioned about Germany abandoning it's effort. The Armistice was a ceasefire, based on which Germany was forced to sign a humiliating treaty to "recompense" all the damage and loss of life, arguably they declared war in the first place because of an existing treaty, that's all history though, as they say.
They were doing what they were told. They didn't think for themselves and
blindly were lead into total oblivion by a deranged and vicious leader. They
never questioned what was happening around them but only acted out of
shear ulterior motives of owning the world and controlling everyone in it.
Those who didn't go along were killed.
The ends justify the means.
So you believe Jesus was saying it was okay for the Nazis to obey Hitler, since the demands of the state are non-negotiable.
I don't believe in Jesus except for that he was a man. People follow others
to get what they want, money or power. Hitler only used religion as a
stepping stone and manipulated it to what his own ideals were.
sowhatifit'sdark
Valued Senior Member
In a sense, yes. Especially as it has been interpreted by the church in general, with 'this' world as a kind of mirage or lower plane and 'real' life coming after. This is the waiting room or testing room to reality. I mean eternity is a hell of a lot longer than three score and ten.
But isn't there an element of this in Islam also? I got the impression that all the monotheisms encouraged a kind of stoicism toward worldly matters and that the real thing was later. But my knowledge of Islam is scattered at best.
sowhatifit'sdark
Valued Senior Member
Yes, but 'money' is the equivalent of work and food and perhaps survival. It is a chit.
To say that was something to just put up with was to make a split between spiritual issues and worldly ones and definitely opens the door that SAM is noting is opened.
sowhatifit'sdark
Valued Senior Member
But it was an unjust colonial power. By saying all that is Caesar's realm and not something Christians should be concerned with he split politics and religion, this world and the spiritual world.
It was absolutely not simply about taxes.
Or was Jesus' story about turning the other cheek only about the correct moral response to being slapped?
Or the adulterous woman who was about to be stoned and Jesus' 'he who is without sin' was that statement only relevent in relation to situations where people are going to stone someone for sleeping around?
The general problem with the Bible is that it can be interpreted to support almost anything, depending on the motivation for the interpretation and in relation to which other passage a passage is interpreted.
But the passage you presented is, AFAIK, usually presented to mean something to the effect of "Give tax money to Caesar (note that on the coin money, there was the image of Caesar), but your soul to God. Don't give your soul to Caesar."
This is sometimes deemed as one of the main points of Christanity anyway.
For better or worse.
Most people see the “Render unto Caesar” phrase as an indication Christians spiritual life is distinct from a secular government, which indeed it is. Unlike Islam, which is as much a political system as a religion.
It isn’t as simple as that. The reason why Jesus said this must be taken in context.
Jesus was teaching in the Jerusalem temple courts, and had a large crowd around him. The Jewish high priests have been trying to get rid of him for a while, but the crowds believe he speaks with the authority of God. The priests need some excuse to arrest him or discredit him.
So they planned to entrap him with his own words. They sent some of their own disciples to ask: “Teacher, we know that you are truthful, and teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.” First to butter him up. Of course they don’t believe this. “Tell us then, what do you think? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
This is very clever. Jesus is screwed if he answers either yes, or no. If he answered yes, then his opponents could publicly discredit him as a sympathizer with Rome. If he answered no, then they could go to the Roman governor and accuse Jesus of rebellion.
Jesus sees through the ruse and yells “Hypocrites! Why are you testing me? Show me the coin used for the tax.” They brought him a denarius. A denarius was a coin in circulation in Palestine at the time that had an image of Tiberius Caesar stamped on it. It would have been worth about a day’s wage for a laborer.
He asks “Whose image is this, and whose inscription?” They say Caesar. This is where Jesus says “Then give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
Jesus slips out of their trap.
When Jesus asks whose image is on the coin, he refers to the idea from Genesis that says man is made in the image of God, which is a subtle but powerful contrast: Caesar lays claim to money though taxation, God lays claim to each individual.
SAM, as a Muslim you really should think twice about bringing up the Nazi’s. In your own subtle way you want to equate Nazi's with Christians.
The veneer-thin reasoning in support of the argument seems to take root only in the mind of shallow thinkers, or those whose anti-Christian bias eschews critical examination.
You forget that Hitler was well received in the Islamic world, where his legacy of killing Jews for the sake of killing Jews is still alive and well. The Qur'an bluntly commands the slaying of Jews and other non-Muslims. Mein Kamph doesn’t even go that far.
