Religulous

I understand you don't understand logic, being a theist. (oh, the pun!) Anyway, your rebutal would be if you could prove your faith, what you can't...


Prominent disbelievers in Christianity today - Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens - insist that sufficient reasons do not exist for the existence of God, and you are obviously in that camp. Dawkins, for example, says that the claim of God's existence is a scientific hypothesis that should be open to rational demonstration. He and his co-skeptics want a logical or empirical argument for God that is airtight and therefore convinces almost everyone. They, like you, and many on these forums, won't believe in God until they get it.

Is there anything wrong with that? I think so. These authors are evaluating Christian arguments by what some have called "strong rationalism". Its proponents laid down what was called the 'verification principle", namely, that no one should believe a proposition unless it can be proved rationally by logic or empirically by sense experience (which is what you are asking for, right?). What is meant by the word "proved"? Proof, in this view, is an argument so strong that no person whose logical faculties are operating properly would have any reason for disbelieving it. Atheists and agnostics ask for this kind of "proof" for God, but are not alone in holding to strong rationalism. You tend to believe that many Christians claim that their arguments for faith are so strong that all who reject them are simply closing their minds to the truth out of fear or stubbornness.

Despite all the books calling Christians to provide proofs for their beliefs, you won't see philosophers doing so, not even the most atheistic. The great majority think that strong rationalism is nearly impossible to defend. To begin with, it can't live up to it's own standards. How could you empirically prove that no one should believe something without empirical proof? You can't, and that reveals it to be, ultimately, a belief. Strong rationalism also assumes that it is impossible to achieve "the view from nowhere", a position of almost complete objectivity, but virtually all philosophers today agree that is impossible. We come to every individual evaluation will all sorts of experiences and background beliefs that strongly influence our thinking and the way our reason works. It is not fair, then, to demand argument that all rational people would have to bow to.

Basically, it comes down to this. In Is there a God? Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne argues powerfully that belief in God can be tested and justified (but not proven). The view that there is a God, he says, leads us to expect the things that we observe - that there is a universe at all, that scientific laws operate within it, that it contains human beings with consciousness and with indelible moral sense. The theory that there is no God, he argues, does not lead us to expect any of these things. Therefore, belief in God offers a better empirical fit, it explains and accounts for what we see better than the alternative account of things. No view of God can be proven, but that does not mean that we cannot sift and weigh the grounds for various religious beliefs that some or even one is the most reasonable.

But, I digress. According to you, I'm just a dumb Christian. :rolleyes:
 
Basically, it comes down to this. In Is there a God? Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne argues powerfully that belief in God can be tested and justified (but not proven). The view that there is a God, he says, leads us to expect the things that we observe - that there is a universe at all, that scientific laws operate within it, that it contains human beings with consciousness and with indelible moral sense. The theory that there is no God, he argues, does not lead us to expect any of these things. Therefore, belief in God offers a better empirical fit, it explains and accounts for what we see better than the alternative account of things. No view of God can be proven, but that does not mean that we cannot sift and weigh the grounds for various religious beliefs that some or even one is the most reasonable.

You know what gods would & wouldn't do & why? If there were a god, it would've created a universe? All you observe is what you'd (we'd?) expect a god to do?
Gods can't exist without creating a universe? If there's more than 1 god, there must be more than 1 universe? Can they create a universe without humans? Gods can't exist without humans?
Of course, all this assumes the universe & humans could not exist without being created by a god. It tries to avoid what created god.
If nothing existed except a god & it made something, it must have made things from itself. Therefore we are all god. There's no need for worship & maybe someday we'll join together & stop this foolishness.
There's nothing reasonable about accepting things without good evidence.
It basicly comes down to this, there's good reason to think gods were made up and/or based on something(s) primitives didn't understand & it's been passed down to us thru a glass darkly in muddy water. There's nothing to tell us otherwise. Any evidence can easily be attributed to other possibilities.
The major, if not all religions, involve cruelties & absurdities & horrible morals.
 
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I apologize but:

1. I don't read long posts.
2. This thread is not about Christianity per see, but Maher's movie.
3. I generally don't engage in religious debate because it is meaningless...
4. I believe in the Hindu elephant god, his name escapes my mind now, but I am sure he doesn't mind...
 
But I appreciate that Bill Maher was respectful to those in the film, which is more than I can say about the majority of the secular on these forums.

Bill Maher openly laughed at these people, to their faces.

That is no different to what I've done with you... except to your face... but I would.
 
It doesn't! In fact, it deserves ridicule.
It is insane that most people & most "leaders" in this "modern" age are faithfully religious.
 
Bill Maher openly laughed at these people, to their faces.

That is no different to what I've done with you... except to your face... but I would.

And what's wrong with that? Why does faith deserve respect?

It doesn't! In fact, it deserves ridicule.
It is insane that most people & most "leaders" in this "modern" age are faithfully religious.


I've said this over and over again, but I don't mind saying it again.

What you all fail to understand is that the only way that we'll all be able to get along is to get sympathetically into one another's shoes. If you don't believe in God, you need to try to understand why anybody does, or we're not going to be able to work in a pluralistic society.

When the new atheist books (Dawkins, Hitchens, and company) say that religion is bad, that's not a new thesis. What's new about those books is that they say that respect for religion is bad.

If you counsel one section of your population to belittle and disdain the beliefs of another group of people (which is exactly what you're doing) - who's beliefs give them great joy and meaning if life - and do nothing to understand the other group - that's a recipe for social disaster. I've actually ignored replies on these boards just for that reason alone.
 
I've said this over and over again, but I don't mind saying it again.

What you all fail to understand is that the only way that we'll all be able to get along is to get sympathetically into one another's shoes. If you don't believe in God, you need to try to understand why anybody does, or we're not going to be able to work in a pluralistic society.

When the new atheist books (Dawkins, Hitchens, and company) say that religion is bad, that's not a new thesis. What's new about those books is that they say that respect for religion is bad.

If you counsel one section of your population to belittle and disdain the beliefs of another group of people (which is exactly what you're doing) - who's beliefs give them great joy and meaning if life - and do nothing to understand the other group - that's a recipe for social disaster. I've actually ignored replies on these boards just for that reason alone.

Wah wah wah. Nonsense. The other way we can all get along is if the religious stop trying to rule our governments, decide what is morally right, and decide who can do what in society. The fight is not being brought to the religious; they are bringing it to us.
 
Bill Maher openly laughed at these people, to their faces.

That is no different to what I've done with you... except to your face... but I would.


To get back on topic of the film, you're right - over all, Maher does come across as a bully.

I would also question exactly what was left on the cutting room floor when this film was edited. There was a scene where a Christian scientist begins to give an answer. It sounded like an apologetic on the nature of documentary and testimonial evidence, a reasonable response to some of Maher's jibes about the Gospels. The man is cut off in favour for shots of Maher looking at the camera incredulously. Hardly fair IMO.

But then again, that would have deviated from Maher's purpose; to show everyone his opinion and his worldview... which is the exact same thing that he accuses the world religions of doing.
 
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If you counsel one section of your population to belittle and disdain the beliefs of another group of people (which is exactly what you're doing) - who's beliefs give them great joy and meaning if life - and do nothing to understand the other group - that's a recipe for social disaster.

The "other" group is well understood. They hold medieval beliefs in the supernatural that provide them with false joy and meaning, hence it is the beliefs that cannot and should not be respected. The disaster has already occurred, centuries ago.
 
Maher's a bit batshit in many beliefs and I don't think he really knows what an atheist is, much less have a good grip on philosophical reasons for theism or atheism. But he's funny as hell most of the time.
 
I loved it when he got the senator to say "You don't need to pass an IQ test to be in the Senate".
 
You know what gods would & wouldn't do & why? If there were a god, it would've created a universe? All you observe is what you'd (we'd?) expect a god to do?
Gods can't exist without creating a universe? If there's more than 1 god, there must be more than 1 universe? Can they create a universe without humans? Gods can't exist without humans?
Of course, all this assumes the universe & humans could not exist without being created by a god. It tries to avoid what created god.
If nothing existed except a god & it made something, it must have made things from itself. Therefore we are all god. There's no need for worship & maybe someday we'll join together & stop this foolishness.
There's nothing reasonable about accepting things without good evidence.
It basicly comes down to this, there's good reason to think gods were made up and/or based on something(s) primitives didn't understand & it's been passed down to us thru a glass darkly in muddy water. There's nothing to tell us otherwise. Any evidence can easily be attributed to other possibilities.
The major, if not all religions, involve cruelties & absurdities & horrible morals.

Couldnt agree more!!!
 
Basing your career off of hating religion is no better than basing your career off of exploiting religion in my opinion. In either case you're bringing nothing to this world.
 
Basing your career off of hating religion is no better than basing your career off of exploiting religion in my opinion. In either case you're bringing nothing to this world.

One is exploitive, the other is funny. Maher brings comedy to the world, albeit to a niche audience.
 
Yet another atheist whose sole basis of existence is to ridicule the beliefs of others. Educating the savages seems to be a dominant theme in western culture.
 
Bill Maher is not an atheist. Why not just call him a doody head, or something equally infantile, since that seems to be all you have to offer this thread?
 
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