Religulous

[Simon Anders]

Simon and JDawg,

A little off topic here, more political but addresses some of the neo-cons positions before Sept 11.

Was wondering if either of you ever came across the "project for a new american century" .

It sounded slightly familiar, but given its level of abstraction that means very little. I went to their home page and found the usual neo con crap...

1 we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


2 we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


3 we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


4 we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

I added the numbers and bold.
1 'Our responsibilities'...given to us by whom?

2 As if we do not happily have allies who are not democratic and have not undermined democracy when it was seen not aligned with us.

3 IOW smash local regulations, even if they are democratically supported, in the interests of the corporations.

4) accept from whom?
And every human being who believes in democracy should shiver about number 4, especially the bolded portion.

Someone or something made us responsible for extending an ORDER friendly to us.

wow.

you know I thought we were heading off topic, but this is a religious document. I actually believe most of the Neocons are atheists or could give a shit, so i am not saying we are on topic because God is implicit in the text. I think they are happy to have the religious right smell the presence of the Christian God here, but in fact that is just more strategy. However I do think this is a religious document.

Ockham's Razor should be brought to bear on a number of assumed concepts in it.

And this coming from me, a theist.

 

[jpappl]

Simon,

I know, it's scary stuff and essentially shows that they wanted to do what they did after Sept 11 before that event occurred. I am not a conspiracy theorist and am not claiming they let it happen or were part of it.

But reading some of their plans makes me wonder just how hard they tried to stop it.

#4 should make us all shiver, in a way it's what past administrations have done behind the scenes with regards to preserving our security and prosperity. But these guys are so arrogant about their right to be in charge that they just tell us outright about their master plan for world domination and control.

America is now the center of the universe. America has assumed control.

"I think they are happy to have the religious right smell the presence of the Christian God here, but in fact that is just more strategy."

Yes and unfortunately they were successful with their strategy. Unfortunately for us and the rest of the world.

Thanks for taking a look.

 

[Balerion]

Simon and JDawg,

A little off topic here, more political but addresses some of the neo-cons positions before Sept 11.

Was wondering if either of you ever came across the "project for a new american century" Back in the late 90's. After 9/11 they used plain old fear tactics to scare the crap out of everyone using that fear to justify every thing they did.

To me this "project" proves how powerful Cheney was in the Bush presidency because all you have to do is look at the list people who signed on to these positions and those who ended up in powerfull positions that could have influence in the push for war. Please note that George Bush is not on the list.

Interesting that in the "project" they are claiming a need to push for such intervention even as Bush and Cheney were campaigning around the country against such a world view.

Yes, I'm aware of the manifesto. It is one of the few scraps of decent circumstantial evidence that the Truthers have.

I really don't think this is much of a threat at this point, since the Republican party will be out of power for at least the next two years, but more probably the next four. Their ideas on paper sounds like the makings of a conspiracy, but the truth is that it's just more far-right bullshit that can't happen without being called on it. I mean, they actually used those practices to get into Iraq, but what came of it? A president with an approval rating of 25%, a Democratic House and Senate, and the very distinct possibility that both leads will grow in November. It's not like they can take over the world, because at the end of the day we still live in a Democracy.

 

[jpappl]

Jdawg,

Every action has an equal opposite reaction.

Let's hope that after the last 8 years people will get more involved in knowing who is running their country and become a part of the process.

Too many don't and that is how we got ourselves in this mess.

Thanks for taking a look

 

[Balerion]

Jdawg,

Every action has an equal opposite reaction.

Let's hope that after the last 8 years people will get more involved in knowing who is running their country and become a part of the process.

Too many don't and that is how we got ourselves in this mess.

Thanks for taking a look

They already knew two years ago that this government was a failure. That's why so many Democrats came into power. The President, unfortunately, is a different situation. If not for this economic crisis, the race would be neck-and-neck right now.

 

[Simon Anders]

I know, it's scary stuff and essentially shows that they wanted to do what they did after Sept 11 before that event occurred. I am not a conspiracy theorist and am not claiming they let it happen or were part of it.

I am a CT, but no need to go into that. Simply the fact that they wanted to go in and a primarily Saudi group of terrorists did something which led to an invastion, after Afghanistan, of Iraq, is a conspiracy. Motive, planning, execution.

But reading some of their plans makes me wonder just how hard they tried to stop it.

This should get more respect in the mainstream media. It was a very odd set of coincidences that day. If it really all was errors, which perhaps it was, it is odd that not a single person took or was given responsibility. The only people who were punished were people who were concerned before 9/11 that something was on the way (in the FBI).

Thanks for taking a look.

Thanks for the reference.

 

[jpappl]

JDawg,

"If not for this economic crisis, the race would be neck-and-neck right now."

With a lot of flag waving and flag pins and nothing of substance being discussed. We got a small taste of what the Palin part of the equation would have been given more time, it was snuffed out somewhat because of the economic situation. A positive from a negative.

Simon,

"This should get more respect in the mainstream media. It was a very odd set of coincidences that day. If it really all was errors, which perhaps it was, it is odd that not a single person took or was given responsibility. The only people who were punished were people who were concerned before 9/11 that something was on the way (in the FBI)."

Odd indeed.

"If it really all was errors"

Which is funny because the Bush administration never, not once admitted to making an error.

 

[Simon Anders]

Which is funny because the Bush administration never, not once admitted to making an error.

Liberals feel guilty lying. They have to deny in themselves to be remotely effective at it - and some of them are. Conservatives know they are right, and thus feel not guilt.

No conspiracy.
We had power.
We made no errors.


I mean the least they could do is use the politician's passive 'Errors were made', but then people tend to ask for follow-ups.

Some liberal would have had to fall on his or her sword in the same situation. A minor one, but in terms of 'making perceptive citizens question their own sanity' this (mere) gesture is slightly ameliorative.