Religious Intolerance

Thoreau

Thoreau

Valued Senior Member
I find that far too many people (even on this forum), both theist and atheist alike, hold extremely narrow and closed-minded judgements of those who hold different beliefs than themselves.

I find most atheists that take a very militant stand against theists' beliefs without even realizing that they themselves are acting in the same manner as they're self-proclaimed enemy. Many atheists complain about the small-mindedness of fundamentalist theists yet they themselves are in the same catagory of fundamentalism.

I, myself, am an atheist and I do take pride in my knowledge and rationality; being able to distinct fact from fiction. I however also believe that everyone has a basic right to believe in what they want to. If you want to believe in some omnipotent being who hovers in and around you like an invisible fog and believe that clouds are literally the floor of heaven, then go ahead. Believe in a talking snake, a holy cow, the Pope, the Buddha, Chrishna, Mohammed, Zeus, the wicked witch of the west; I don't care. And neither should anyone else.

People claim that both theists and atheists push views on one another. There is no such thing unless YOU allow it. If a Christian comes to your door and thumps his book at you, there is nothing stopping you from closing your door. If atheists challenge your beliefs saying that you are wrong for believing in what you choose to believe in, you don't have to listen to them either. Hell, you don't even have to read or agree with what I'm saying in this post, but one thing is for sure, I'm not forcing you to read this. I don't care where you pray or if you even pray at all. I don't care who believes in god(s) or who doesn't. So why do you care such things?

I think that people are far too demanding, inconsiderate and disrespectful toward one another simply for what they believe.

Who cares if someone tries to convince you to believe something other than your current values? Those values are yours, and that is something that only you can change. So why feel threatened by someone else's?

Yes, wars have been faught and millions have died over religion. But it is not the fault of that religion, it is the fault of those who choose to act violently while clutching their dogma's, justifying horrible acts by simply claiming divine purpose. Blaming violent acts acted on behalf of religious views on the religion and not the person is like blaming a gun for killing someone, not the individual pulling the trigger. And the same applies in vice-versa.

Have we as humans become so far distracted from the purpose and joys of living our lives that we have to demoralize the purpose and joys of others? Live and let live. Act only out of self-preservation and not in accusation.

- MZ3Boy84
 
Millions also have died because the people in charge want more land, wealth, power , domination and control so that they are feeling good about themselves as well. Religion too has caused as many deaths but do not think that it is the only reason for war.
 
Personally I agree with what you are saying from a standpoint of how we should each live our lives.

I would say that sometimes taking a side is something that is forced onto you and you have very few options but to then take a stand.

This is unfortunately how a few who gain power can screw everything up for everyone else.

And it's been going on for a long time and will continue.

I would have to say that even if we somehow were to start over in a utopia, we would manage to screw it up somewhere along the way.
 
MZ3Boy84 said:
I find that far too many people (even on this forum), both theist and atheist alike, hold extremely narrow and closed-minded judgements of those who hold different beliefs than themselves.
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I agree with all of this, very generally speaking. But there's no need to restrict it to the scope of religion.

MZ3Boy84 said:
I find most atheists that take a very militant stand against theists' beliefs without even realizing that they themselves are acting in the same manner as they're self-proclaimed enemy. Many atheists complain about the small-mindedness of fundamentalist theists yet they themselves are in the same catagory of fundamentalism.
Click to expand...

This notion has been discussed all the way to hell on here but, in short: the analogy doesn't hold. I'll leave it at that for now, as there are many threads discussing whether or not atheism is a belief....

MZ3Boy84 said:
... Believe in a talking snake, a holy cow, the Pope, the Buddha, Chrishna, Mohammed, Zeus, the wicked witch of the west; I don't care. And neither should anyone else.
Click to expand...

While I agree with you that yes, we should respect one's freedom to believe what they will, I do maintain that we must care.
Why? Because the vast majority of religions (note, I didn't say theists....) are diametrically opposed to the very notion of tolerance.
 
glaucon said:
While I agree with you that yes, we should respect one's freedom to believe what they will, I do maintain that we must care.
Why? Because the vast majority of religions (note, I didn't say theists....) are diametrically opposed to the very notion of tolerance.
Click to expand...

But all religions have great potential to move mountains. All have great potential to be productive to humankind.
 
MZ3Boy84 said:
But all religions have great potential to move mountains. All have great potential to be productive to humankind.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. And yet, what have we seen through history that religion has done more than anything? One answer: kill.
 
MZ3Boy84 ,

I could not disagree more. Religion is not a neutral thing like a gun, that depends on the intent and actions of it's owner. Religion actually causes bad things to happen. It's not the case of one view being just as good as another. Many religious tenets are irrational and not supported by any good evidence. So, it's false to say scientifically minded people are just as fundamentalist as the religious, they are not. They may change their opinions as new facts come to light, religious fundamentalists are fixed in time. I feel a responsibility to argue for rationality, since the opposite can result in the end of humanity. Just look at that Arizona senator who thinks we should maintain a consumerist non-sustainable model based on unlimited energy because, hey, we have been doing it for 6,000 years and so far so good!
 
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glaucon said:
With who (and what)?
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With the original post.

Even moderate religion gives justification for fundamentalism. It's all just as dangerous. We live in a finite world that has no guarantee of continuing in a habitable condition, so it's vital to be dealing with a full deck. I'm completely tolerant of religious people, many of them close friends, that's not the point.
 
spidergoat said:
Religion actually causes bad things to happen. It's not the case of one view being just as good as another.
Click to expand...

If religion itself is considered immoral or wrong and thus causes bad deeds, please explain the various texts in the various scriptures that express compassion?

Bible Quotes:
Lev. 19:17 "`Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18"`Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself."

Lev. 19:33 "`When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Num. 14:17 "Now may the Lord's strength be displayed, just as you have declared: 18`The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.' 19In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."

Qur'an quotes:
"O unbelievers, I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve, nor am I serving what you have served, neither are you serving what I serve. To you your religion, and to me my religion!"

"…and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good". (2:195)

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity."

"And My Mercy embraces all things" (7:156)


There are many more! But my point is that those who do believe in a religion have the option to live in these teachings of compassion instead of in those of violence and bigotry. That is why I say that is in the hands of the individual. Again, you cannot blame the religion for the acts of the religious.
 
MZ3Boy84 said:
If religion itself is considered immoral or wrong and thus causes bad deeds, please explain the various texts in the various scriptures that express compassion?
Click to expand...


Because one does not follow from the other.
Simply because a sign says "No Smoking', it doesn't follow that I cannot.
Quite simply, people do not follow the 'rules' that are found in their particular scripture.


MZ3Boy84 said:
But my point is that those who do believe in a religion have the option to live in these teachings of compassion instead of in those of violence and bigotry.
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Of course.

MZ3Boy84 said:
Again, you cannot blame the religion for the acts of the religious.
Click to expand...

Then why, in the face of such contrarian behaviour, do they insist on remaining a member of that religion?
 
MZ3Boy84 said:
If religion itself is considered immoral or wrong and thus causes bad deeds, please explain the various texts in the various scriptures that express compassion?

...
Click to expand...

There are plenty of statements in the bible I can agree with. I like the appreciation of knowledge in Soloman. Many things attributed to Jesus make sense to me. I would never say every religious text teaches nothing but immorality. But the problem is that it also teaches irrational thinking and blind obeisance. What about the part where God commands Abraham to kill his son? What about ritual human sacrifice? What about strange dietary rules?

It might have been a fine idea to legislate a prohibition on raising pigs in the middle east for many reasons, but that might not work in another country. If religion was based on reason, Muslims and Jews who live outside of the Middle East could take advantage of a perfectly good food source.
 
MZ3Boy84 said:
I find that far too many people (even on this forum), both theist and atheist alike, hold extremely narrow and closed-minded judgements of those who hold different beliefs than themselves.

I find most atheists that take a very militant stand against theists' beliefs without even realizing that they themselves are acting in the same manner as they're self-proclaimed enemy. Many atheists complain about the small-mindedness of fundamentalist theists yet they themselves are in the same catagory of fundamentalism.

I, myself, am an atheist and I do take pride in my knowledge and rationality; being able to distinct fact from fiction. I however also believe that everyone has a basic right to believe in what they want to. If you want to believe in some omnipotent being who hovers in and around you like an invisible fog and believe that clouds are literally the floor of heaven, then go ahead. Believe in a talking snake, a holy cow, the Pope, the Buddha, Chrishna, Mohammed, Zeus, the wicked witch of the west; I don't care. And neither should anyone else.

People claim that both theists and atheists push views on one another. There is no such thing unless YOU allow it. If a Christian comes to your door and thumps his book at you, there is nothing stopping you from closing your door. If atheists challenge your beliefs saying that you are wrong for believing in what you choose to believe in, you don't have to listen to them either. Hell, you don't even have to read or agree with what I'm saying in this post, but one thing is for sure, I'm not forcing you to read this. I don't care where you pray or if you even pray at all. I don't care who believes in god(s) or who doesn't. So why do you care such things?

I think that people are far too demanding, inconsiderate and disrespectful toward one another simply for what they believe.

Who cares if someone tries to convince you to believe something other than your current values? Those values are yours, and that is something that only you can change. So why feel threatened by someone else's?

Yes, wars have been faught and millions have died over religion. But it is not the fault of that religion, it is the fault of those who choose to act violently while clutching their dogma's, justifying horrible acts by simply claiming divine purpose. Blaming violent acts acted on behalf of religious views on the religion and not the person is like blaming a gun for killing someone, not the individual pulling the trigger. And the same applies in vice-versa.

Have we as humans become so far distracted from the purpose and joys of living our lives that we have to demoralize the purpose and joys of others? Live and let live. Act only out of self-preservation and not in accusation.

- MZ3Boy84
Click to expand...

That was like a cool drink of water. *applause*
 
Yeah, it's fashionable to compare atheists with fundamentalists these days, but one is based on reason and evidence, the other on faith. They aren't simliar at all. Should we really not care wether the president (for instance) believes that these are the end times, and that war in the Middle East is actually a harbinger of our return to paradise?
 
I think it all comes down to fear and insecurity. That's what makes people hate and want to control and to be intolerant. I would bet that's why most people are even religious at all. People don't trust themselves, don't trust god, and certainly don't trust each other. Very few people have enough balls to live their own lives.
 
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