Religion in Small Doses

[Adstar]

Well I will agree that the Qur'an says such, and your theistic doctrine is as such, but I know many Christians that take it as a part of their religious belief to spread the word of God to the unbeliever. Which IMHO means that they do not "respect" this other persons belief as valid or equal to their own.

And what is wrong with that?

If you believed that grass was green but another believed it was purple would you accept that believe as equal in validity to yours? Would you respect it?

No.

If you think you have the truth and believe others hold to something that is false you should not respect those false beliefs. To show respect for a belief you believe is false is an act of a liar. I know many atheists in here who have no respect for Christianity. Why because they believe it is lies and a deception. They mock it and spew forth hatred against it. So all this talk of respect is a load of garbage.

Now you can have no respect for another view but you can tolerate that person holding that view. Tolerance is putting up with something you disagree with it is not respecting something you disagree with. One does not need tolerance for something they respect.

We Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Only way to eternity with God and we are directed by Jesus to give each and every human being alive in this world the opportunity to accept this. The only way to do this is to spread the message of Jesus. We Christians know the other eternity for those who reject the Messiah Jesus is not good, so to fail to give the message of Jesus is in fact an act of hatred towards the person you withhold the Word of God from.

Now people can accept of they can reject the message, People can take whatever emotional position they like towards it from hilarity to outright physical hostility but as far as a true followers of the Messiah Jesus is concerned they are called upon to give it no matter what the emotional response they receive.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Michael]

PonderuponThis,

On the one hand you agree that the 3000+ year old Japanese Shinto religion probably has many virtuous aspects that you would agree with. Japan, after all, has been a civilized nation for millennia with it's own traditions and language and culture and Religion and Shinto is a intertwined interconnected part of that.

But, you can not entertain the notion that the Japanese indigenous Religion is equal to Islam. As a matter of fact - it can not even be correct? It is, in effect, at it's very heart and nature - dead wrong. I wonder, do you think that the possibility exists that the Japanese Religion may be correct and Islam may be dead-wrong? Or does even such a possibility not exist?


We know that Shinto is interconnected to all parts of Japanese society and culture. By saying that Shinto is not equal to Islam: Are you in effect inferring that Japanese culture is not equal to Islamic culture?

If a person where to take this attitude to the extreme - do you think it will be good for society - in general? What happens when two people meet with such implacable attitudes?



The funny thing about Japan is that Buddhism is also a large part of Japanese society. Buddhism and Shinto are intertwined in Japanese culture. They seem to balance one another. The Buddhist, being from India, is not a Japanese Theology - yet it was accommodating to the Japanese Shinto beleif system and the Shinto were likewise receptive to Buddhism. The Buddhist seem to have an attitude that Shinto may in fact be correct. The possibility exists. As a matter of fact, Buddhist build Shinto Shrines within their Temples in Japan and Shinto build Buddhist places of prayer within their Shrines. Accepting that such a possibility may exist seems to not only go along way in my book but also in the real world to boot.


Which do you think holds more respect for the Shinto beleif system of the Japanese: Buddhism or Islam?

Buddhism holds the Shinto beliefs to an equal status; even providing special Shrines to the local Gods within Buddhist Temples.

OR

Islam which you just posted seems to suggest of the Shinto belief system - as being in a state of incorrectness, it is impossible to be equal nor is it correct.

I wonder: Which is better for the Religion for the Japanese and why?


Imagine a person who takes such a Religion very seriously and then imagine that this person is invited to a Japanese home and then invited to a Shinto Shrine or Buddhist Temple. How will such a person perceive such a place? As a wonderful cultural experience? Would they even enter such a place? Burn in scent to the local deities with their hosts?

If no then this is what I mean when I say too serious, if yes, then if it fine that they can take their Religion in small doses

What do you think?
Michael

 

[Adstar]

Someone who accepts that there may be Gods or Goddesses but doesn't believe there are.

Logically, the possibilities exist.

Michaekl

An athiest believe that there is not God. So an athiest is of the firm belief that God does not exist.

But an agnostic Believes that God may exist.

You cannot hold both positions. If you believe that God does not exist call yourself an athiest

If you believe that God might exist then call yourself an agnostic.


From what you have said you are agnostic.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Michael]

Michael,

Do you think it is wrong to teach yuor children what you to believe is right and wrong?
Do you believe it is wrong to instill what you think is proper values in yoru children?

Can you respect the beliefs of others (even though they may differ from yours)?

1) Yes (but society has a huge impact here), 2) No (also again society has a huge impact), 3) I'll try to teach my children to believe as they think it best for them (when I have children). If I married my present partner my children may become a certain faith because her father is a Priest of this faith. There will be an inclination to go in this direction of course. Then again I am an atheist. Will I brainwash my child to become an atheist? No. As atheist are fewer than, what 3%?, it is more then likely they will not be an atheist. Which is fine.


So long as they are happy that's the main point.

Michael

 

[Michael]

Now you can have no respect for another view but you can tolerate that person holding that view. Tolerance is putting up with something you disagree with it is not respecting something you disagree with. One does not need tolerance for something they respect.

Buddhism seems to find a middle ground? No?

Also, it seemed that the old polytheistic pantheons more than tolerated other deities. They accepted them openly.

I suppose it's only monotheism that has it's panties in a bunch!


Michael

 

[one_raven]

So if your child steals a pack of gum, you will not say that it was wrong, you will say, "Well, whatever you think"?

 

[Michael]

An athiest believe that there is not God. So an athiest is of the firm belief that God does not exist.

But an agnostic Believes that God may exist.

You cannot hold both positions. If you believe that God does not exist call yourself an athiest

If you believe that God might exist then call yourself an agnostic.


From what you have said you are agnostic.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The definition I take is agnostic accepts it is impossible to prove a negative. Of course were a God to come down here and say: "Hey puny humans I am Amaterasu you will know I am the Goddess-head" then a positive is more than easy to prove.

But, just like you, I am an atheist in regards to the Goddesses Amaterasu. I lack a beleif in her.

Just as I do for all Godessess and Gods.

Hence, agnostic atheist,

Michael

 

[Michael]

So if your child steals a pack of gum, you will not say that it was wrong, you will say, "Well, whatever you think"?

Of course not. I will teach them that stealing from others is not correct behavior.

 

[Michael]

Oh I should have replied 1) No, 2) No, 3) explanation (my mistake!)

 

[one_raven]

Oh I should have replied 1) No, 2) No, 3) explanation (my mistake!)

That makes more sense!

 

[Norsefire]

Ridiculous. Dont take it too seriously, just a little past time?

Religion is religion. There is no such thing as ''too seriously'' unless you mean Extremism, and that is a totally different matter.

But there' s also no such thing as 'small doses'. If you're faithful, you're faithful. If you're not, you're not.

 

[Adstar]

Buddhism seems to find a middle ground? No?

What middle ground?

Also, it seemed that the old polytheistic pantheons more than tolerated other deities. They accepted them openly.

That’s because many of them believed that they had their gods and other peoples had their gods. That there where many gods that they did not know about, that had other peoples as their devotees. Many of these religions did not care if people in other places followed other gods, in fact many of these religions would go god-collecting trying to get as many gods that they could from other peoples in an attempt to increase the blessings they would receive. They thought, well 15 gods are good how about we get gods from the neighbours and we will have 25 gods that will be even better. The hindu religion is the end result of that process.

I suppose it's only monotheism that has it's panties in a bunch!


Michael

"panties in a bunch" ??????? ummm ok i will really try very hard here and go ha..ha......ha...........ha... sorry forced laughter is a waste of energy.


If one believes in one God then of course one cannot have respect for the belief in multiple Gods and belief in No God.

Getting ones panties in a bunch is a way of saying that believers in one God get angry. Anger is a choice. Just because one believes in one God does not necessarily follow that one will have anger towards a person who believes in multiple Gods or someone who does not believe in God.

A believer in One God can feel sorrow and compassion for those who believe in Multiple Gods and those who do not believe in God.

If one has the right Spirit as a Christian they will hate the false belief but love the person who holds the false belief. It is entirely possible for one to hate a belief without hating the people who hold to that belief. Just as it is possible as Jesus said to love even ones enemy, to love even the person who persecutes you for your belief in Jesus.

So anger against another person is a choice and choosing it reveals one to have the wrong Spirit towards other human beings.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[audible]

What if part of your religous belief states you must "spread the Good Word".


If, say, the religion itself condemns others? What if the religion itself is centered on a beleif

Couldn't taking such a religion too seriously be bad news for people who do not believe in X Prophet or X God or ect...?

No religion does this. This is a minconception, and I will explaine why.

You are kidding, right!
what are you doing in your next paragraph if it's not "spread the Good Word"

In Quran it is stated many times that Mohammed (pbuh) is the last and final messanger who performed miracles, prophicied, came with a criterea from the creator, guidence for mankind and much! much! more! said more or less, to worship God to obey his commands whether they be new or old, deal with each other justly, feed the poor, visit the sick, and be kind, humble, ect... actually a book could be written on this topic. In fact its called the Quran.
It is a guidance for mankind. To lead them out of the dark into the light. ok? So then... We have the commands inside Quran how do we apply these to our lives. We have the best of example Mohammed (pbuh)the best of mankind in character and in worship. We have so many authintic resouces compiled by companions of the Holy Prophets (pbuh) who were known for being a truthful people.We know well (or atleast should)what kind of cloths he wore, what kind of food he ate, when he ate, how he ate, what he said when he ate, exactly what prayers he performed, when, where, how, and why to pray them, and the list goes on.

And what are you doing again in the next paragraph, but promote that you MUST accept X Prophet or X God or X etc... Fair enough your not promoting here the unbelievers will burn in hell, but the Qu’ran does.

The cow 2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom."

the family of imran 3:4 Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).

ok so...
Quran states also that either you believe or disbelieve. Does not specificly say that you Must believe, and does not call for the death of a person or even a group of people for the simple fact that they disbelieve. This is my proof.


Quran 2-256
"Let there be no compulsion in this deen.(Way of life, belief system, or more commonly known as religion.)Truth stands clear in contrast to error. Whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold in which will never break. Allah hears and knows all.

Also Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him) comes from the line of the prophets. Means that his ancesters are prophets. ie.. Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. May Allah shower mercy and blessings upon them all.

Read Quran Discover the Truth,
May Allah guide us all. ameen

So it seems you need to go and reread this Qu'ran of yours don’t you.
As your reply to Michael’s last question "Couldn't taking such a religion too seriously be bad news for people who do not believe in X Prophet or X God or etc...?" must be a resounding, YES!

 

[LiveInFaith]

Michael,

I'm muslim, and this is how muslim see difference in beliefs:

Once ONE become A MUSLIM, then one believes in the teachings of Islam, which, if there difference with others, muslim should BELIEVE the others are wrong.

In rephrase, A MUSLIM should run on ISLAM CORRIDOR in absolute manner, no comparison, no mixing, no mess up with other beliefs, no partial doses. One should run it in a complete set.

And Islam teaches there is no compulsion in religion. NO one muslim should ever JUDGE wether any non muslim is wrong or right, wether any non muslim will go to heaven or hell. Islam teaches that those businesses are God's, not human's.

Judging other's acts using one's value (which is different) is unjustified. For a muslim, other beliefs are just outside of the Islam system. Muslim BELIEVE the others are wrong, but there is no way muslim could JUDGE they are wrong.

Just put attention between BELIEVE (irrational based action) with JUDGE (rational based action).

It's quite a close system in terms of believe, but Islam also teaches "AKHLAQ" - individual behaviours / etiquette and morality - which applies for individual in regarrds to social interaction. If one takes it (religion) seriously, then one would act based on AKHLAQ's teachings seriously, so one won't take any offensive and disturbance to others.

When you see most of terrorists nowadays are muslims, do you think they take their religion too seriously? I doubt it. They seriulsy didn't do what are instructed by Qur'an. They seriously put aside most of the teachings, which is doing Islam not in a "complete set". Yes, Qur'an allows to go to war, and killings is inevitable in war, but the way terrorists doing is not the way Qur'an teaches.

 

[Michael]

Ridiculous. Dont take it too seriously, just a little past time?

Yea, like celebrate religous holidays with a prezzi but don't start slicing meat off your back to show God what kind of man you are.

Religion is religion. There is no such thing as ''too seriously'' unless you mean Extremism, and that is a totally different matter.

What exactly is extremism?

I'd say praying multiple times a day is extreme.

But there' s also no such thing as 'small doses'. If you're faithful, you're faithful. If you're not, you're not.

Again what's wrong with going to the Christmas mass but skipping the rest until passover?

Michael

 

[Michael]

Once ONE become A MUSLIM, then one believes in the teachings of Islam, which, if there difference with others, muslim should BELIEVE the others are wrong.

How do you think this affects those other people that are perceived as being wrong? If you think they are wrong in their belief - don’t you think this could be interpreted in a negative manner by them?

Once ONE become A MUSLIM, then one believes in the teachings of Islam, which, if there difference with others, muslim should BELIEVE the others are wrong.

In rephrase, A MUSLIM should run on ISLAM CORRIDOR in absolute manner, no comparison, no mixing, no mess up with other beliefs, no partial doses. One should run it in a complete set.

But who is to say what is correct or not correct? Once you have set the rule that all other beliefs outside of Islam are inherently wrong then these non-Muslims are then open for personal attack on their selves and their property. Which we see happening over and over in Islamic coutries. Don’t you think that this is a direct result of some people taking such an uncompromising attitude towards other peoples beliefs.

OK, let me ask:
Did you think it was wrong of those Afghan Muslims that destroyed the 2300 year old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan? They seemed to think they were acting in accordance with the Qur’an and were simply destroying false idolatry. They were running in a pure Islamic Corridor - at least in this respect.

What do you think?


Also, say you were in Japan and were invited to burn incense with your Japanese host family to honor their local God. Would you?

Michael

 

[Michael]

My apologies Adstar, I shouldn't have cracked the joke. Sorry.

I simply feel that when people take an uncompromising approach in their beleif and this beleif also demands that other peoples beliefs are inherently wrong - well bad things are going to happen.

Tell me this Adstar, assuming you are from a Western country (we'll pretend Canada) do you think that Islam should be portrayed in a very positive light? That people should be encouraged to read about Islam and maybe even become Muslim? If your answer is NO then how do you think that makes LiveInFaith feel?

And LiveInFaith, think about what you are saying as well. Because your likemindedness would make Hindu feel likewise of course.

Can't you two see that either of your beliefs, if taken too much to the "extreme", causes other people sadness? Have you ever wondered if a beleif that directly causes so many other people such sadness is a beleif worth holding onto at all?

Michael

 

[LiveInFaith]

How do you think this affects those other people that are perceived as being wrong? If you think they are wrong in their belief - don’t you think this could be interpreted in a negative manner by them?

For a muslim, the acts should be "your religion is yours, mine is mine". No compromise. Agree to disagree. For others how to behave, I don't know. I never been non-muslim, I cannot imagine how to behave when a muslim see me as wrong. But I know exactly when others, say Christians, say I am wrong, that what i say "yours is yours, mine is mine".

But who is to say what is correct or not correct? Once you have set the rule that all other beliefs outside of Islam are inherently wrong then these non-Muslims are then open for personal attack on their selves and their property. Which we see happening over and over in Islamic coutries. Don’t you think that this is a direct result of some people taking such an uncompromising attitude towards other peoples beliefs.

Muslim say Islam is correct, Christian say Christian is correct. It runs like a proprietary system, not compatible each other. No one to say which one is correct when compared. That I said, no comparison, cannot messed up with others.
Muslim prohibit to personal attack, or personal property offence. So the inherent 'wrong' is not open to attack, it is protected by a 'firewall' of many regulations in Islamic teachings.
If that happens, it simply because muslim break the rules.

OK, let me ask:
Did you think it was wrong of those Afghan Muslims that destroyed the 2300 year old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan? They seemed to think they were acting in accordance with the Qur’an and were simply destroying false idolatry. They were running in a pure Islamic Corridor - at least in this respect.

What do you think?

Also, say you were in Japan and were invited to burn incense with your Japanese host family to honor their local God. Would you?

Michael

Purely Islamic speaking, it was wrong to destroy Buddhist statue in Afghan. They compelled others. Totally wrong. They never read seriously 'let there be no compulsion in religion". There is preaching suggestion in Islam, to spread the light of Islam, but not to physically destroy other properties. The preaching should go to the 'heart', which is educating people about Islam, and let the message go to their conscience. Faith is deep in the 'heart'. When faith is triggered, then it is there. Forcing is no use.

In Japan, I would not do their rituals. It is compromising beliefs, which is not what Islam teaches. Not compatible, cannot compromise, so I would not do. But I will respect them doing it, would be there to silently watch if they ask, but not involving in the rituals.

 

[LiveInFaith]

I simply feel that when people take an uncompromising approach in their beleif and this beleif also demands that other peoples beliefs are inherently wrong - well bad things are going to happen.

Any beliefs will do. Not exclusively regards to religion.
But you have to realize, religion is a complete set of way of life, it is teaching people how to behave. One bad potentials in one side, should be having good potentials on other sides. There a serious religious people would make balanced considerations in their actions.

And LiveInFaith, think about what you are saying as well. Because your likemindedness would make Hindu feel likewise of course.

I lived in a Hindu community for one and a half years. Everything was just allright.
I was kind of trying to internalize why they do what they do in no judging way, and finally I found I kind of having a bit understanding why they so devoutly mannered in their religion (which I believe they are wrong, and they believe I am wrong). That is, assuming God of each religion is true, then belief systems are such cohesively solid systems which each and every bit of the teachings, are complementing and completing each other, to be walked in lives. If one aspect of Hindu is put in other teaching system, it is like putting a virus in a computer system, maybe the system will crash.

Two uncompatible systems cannot run at the same time in the same machines, both should run in their own environment.

When two religions crossing each other in the cross street, both should be finding in their books, how to deal with other people in social interactions. There must be teachings that would prevent such bad acts. If not written there, then I dare (in my belief) to say that is not a religion from God.

 

[PonderuponThis]

PonderuponThis,

On the one hand you agree that the 3000+ year old Japanese Shinto religion probably has many virtuous aspects that you would agree with. Japan, after all, has been a civilized nation for millennia with it's own traditions and language and culture and Religion and Shinto is a intertwined interconnected part of that.

But, you can not entertain the notion that the Japanese indigenous Religion is equal to Islam. As a matter of fact - it can not even be correct? It is, in effect, at it's very heart and nature - dead wrong. I wonder, do you think that the possibility exists that the Japanese Religion may be correct and Islam may be dead-wrong? Or does even such a possibility not exist?

The fact that Islam is based upon truth alone is enough reason for me to doubt the possibility that there is any other truer System of Belief. And I see that for all people who wish to base there system of belief on truth. And if any system of beliefs were to contain the weight of an atom or even smaller , other than pure truth, the system is in fact fallible. And in the end will lead to destruction.

We know that Shinto is interconnected to all parts of Japanese society and culture. By saying that Shinto is not equal to Islam: Are you in effect inferring that Japanese culture is not equal to Islamic culture?

See that’s one of the beauties of Islam. It doesn't matter what culture you come from. You are accepted with open arms. You can see the architecture found throughout the middle east. Groups of people accepted Islam and in the Masjid in Turkey . You can see the colors they used when building the dome. Food is another cultural aspect carried from one generation to the next. Culture is intermingled though out the human race, as you know. Nobody should ever find oneself looking down upon another human being for the simple fact that he or she comes from a different culture, race, blood, color or even belief. In fact one should never find him or herself thinking that anyone is less than anyone. Allah know what is in the hearts, and we don’t.

If a person where to take this attitude to the extreme - do you think it will be good for society - in general? What happens when two people meet with such implacable attitudes?

Yes if a person were to take anything to the extreme would be a grave mistake. Because the action that manifested from the belief that one should become extreme is in itself an act of ignorance. Extremism finds no home within the fold of Islam. Now on the other hand What is Extremism. And how did this parasite of a word become inner tangled with such a great system of beliefs called Islam?

The funny thing about Japan is that Buddhism is also a large part of Japanese society. Buddhism and Shinto are intertwined in Japanese culture. They seem to balance one another. The Buddhist, being from India, is not a Japanese Theology - yet it was accommodating to the Japanese Shinto beleif system and the Shinto were likewise receptive to Buddhism. The Buddhist seem to have an attitude that Shinto may in fact be correct. The possibility exists. As a matter of fact, Buddhist build Shinto Shrines within their Temples in Japan and Shinto build Buddhist places of prayer within their Shrines. Accepting that such a possibility may exist seems to not only go along way in my book but also in the real world to boot.


Which do you think holds more respect for the Shinto beleif system of the Japanese: Buddhism

or Islam?

Of course Islam is the best system of belief for any human on the face of the earth no matter where they come from. There is nothing wrong with Shinto and Buddhist men and there cultures interweaving though out the face of the globe. But to set up shrines for one to send prayer to is not right no matter who you are. (I wont go into why.) Even if the Shinto people as a whole embraced Islam and deserted There old belief system on count of being fallible and leading to destruction. Should by no means interfere with there relationship with the Buddhist people. But sense %96 percent of the Japanese people are Buddhist means that in fact the Buddhist would have to be the ones who were the ones embracing Islam on the count that Buddhism is Fallible and leading to destruction. Still the very small Shinto System of belief seems to becoming extinct if its 3000 years plus and there are very few Shinto followers in Japan. Why is that? Is it inevitable that Truth prevails? Yes it is.

Buddhism holds the Shinto beliefs to an equal status; even providing special Shrines to the local Gods within Buddhist Temples.

OR

Islam which you just posted seems to suggest of the Shinto belief system - as being in a state of incorrectness, it is impossible to be equal nor is it correct.

I wonder: Which is better for the Religion for the Japanese and why?


Imagine a person who takes such a Religion very seriously and then imagine that this person is invited to a Japanese home and then invited to a Shinto Shrine or Buddhist Temple. How will such a person perceive such a place? As a wonderful cultural experience? Would they even enter such a place? Burn in scent to the local deities with their hosts?

If no then this is what I mean when I say too serious, if yes, then if it fine that they can take their Religion in small doses

What do you think?
Michael

I’m sure that for the large amount of Buddhist who live in Japan would agree when I say this, ” leave me to mine and you to yours, but if you would like to share with me you beliefs (In small doses that is). Then lets have tea.

What if part of your religous beleif states you must "spread the Good Word".

If, say, the religion itself condemns others? What if the religion itself is centered on a beleif that you MUST accept X Prophet or X God or X etc.. and if you do not then you will burn in Hell fire.

Couldn't taking such a religion too seriously be bad news for people who do not believe in X Prophet or X God or ect...?

How can one take a religion seriously that condemns non-believers but not condemn non-believes? That appears oxymoronic - doesn't it?

Michael

You are kidding, right!
what are you doing in your next paragraph if it's not "spread the Good Word"[/COLOR]

No religion does this. This is a minconception, and I will explaine why.

What I was refering to when this statement was made was that no where in the Quran does it specificly say that you must believe. Notice the the word must in big bold letters. The argument you made is based upon a missunderstanding most likely caused my my inability to express myself as well as i should. But for the most part yes spread the good word and also you are not forced to believe. Its your choice.