religion and war

[S.A.M.]

I don't agree with Dawkins. He is for socially attacking theists (i.e. social violence).

You may not agree with everything he says, but you are definitely influenced by his ideologies.

A Meme is a very accurate way to describe idea replication. That it happens and everyone is subject to it is reality (i.e. the WHAT of it is quite true). There is a void of knowledge concerning the HOW of it and maybe this is the part that you're objecting to.

Like I said "previously known as liberal arts".

Take a pinch of history, some political science and a large cup each of sociology, anthropology and literature. Voila! A meme.

Tell me Sam, do you think Islam is well adapted to reality? Do you think its members have the freedom to communicate any kind of feedback to each other, their leaders, and the 'outside world' without fear of reprisal or dismissal?

Who's reality? The West, the East, the Middle East?

Is a Western society "better" than an Eastern one?

Are we moralising on a global level here? Are all societies equal in their requirements?

Shall we write out what every other country in the world should do?

Can you spell T-O-T-A-L-I-T-A-R-I-A-N-I-S-M?

 

[S.A.M.]

Having engagement and feedback doesn't eliminate any of those items you listed. What it does; however, is not make them the automatic results.

Only if you can sift through the BS.

As Stalin and Hitler both proved, BS can be very powerful.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

You may not agree with everything he says, but you are definitely influenced by his ideologies.

I am certainly influenced by his definition of a Meme... although what else I cannot say as I really don't follow the fella too closely.

Like I said "previously known as liberal arts".

Take a pinch of history, some political science and a large cup each of sociology, anthropology and literature. Voila! A meme.

Then it is the HOW that you have a gripe with and well what can I say? There's just alot about that we don't know yet. Apparently Dawkins hasn't found that missing knowledge yet either or his crusade against theism would be showing quite a different result.

Who's reality? The West, the East, the Middle East?

Objective reality. All forms of theism have some conflicts with it and present Islam is far more challenged than the rest.

Is a Western society "better" than an Eastern one?

It depends on what is valued. Western society is certainly more dominant and technologically advanced for example. If Eastern society values those things then an answer might be yes. If they don't the answer might be 'no'.

Are we moralising on a global level here? Are all societies equal in their requirements?

It's not a secret that open and clear bi-directional communication leads to more positivie outcomes than closed one-directional/silo'd communication.

Shall we write out what every other country in the world should do?

Can you spell T-O-T-A-L-I-T-A-R-I-A-N-I-S-M?

How about we try our best to adapt to reality and share what we've learned (both positive and negative) with anyone whose interested in an safe and open environment. That breeds trust and would likely entice others to want to be a part of it.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Only if you can sift through the BS.

As Stalin and Hitler both proved, BS can be very powerful.

Open bi-directional 'straight-talk' communication is a good BS sifter. I don't think Stalin and Hitler had that.

 

[S.A.M.]

Open bi-directional 'straight-talk' communication is a good BS sifter. I don't think Stalin and Hitler had that.

Provinciality is also a part of the vast majority of the human psyche.

Much of what you call bi-directional communication is restricted to the very few who are interested in it.

For most people, the definition of smart is “Thinks exactly like me but even more so.” If you think that disagreeing and offering excellent reasons for your thinking will change anyone’s mind, you might be new on this planet.

http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2006/12/acting_smarter_.html

 

[S.A.M.]

Objective reality. All forms of theism have some conflicts with it and present Islam is far more challenged than the rest.

How familiar are you with notions of objective reality as perceived by Muslims?

It depends on what is valued. Western society is certainly more dominant and technologically advanced for example. If Eastern society values those things then an answer might be yes. If they don't the answer might be 'no'.

So all societies without the benefit of the last 200 years of change that the West has seen should fast forward themselves to meet the current Western standards of morality? Regardless of their desire or ability to comprehend or adapt to Western values?

It's not a secret that open and clear bi-directional communication leads to more positivie outcomes than closed one-directional/silo'd communication.

How about we try our best to adapt to reality and share what we've learned (both positive and negative) with anyone whose interested in an safe and open environment. That breeds trust and would likely entice others to want to be a part of it.

It might help if you actually knew what you were talking about.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Provinciality is also a part of the vast majority of the human psyche.

Much of what you call bi-directional communication is restricted to the very few who are interested in it.

Correct.

http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2006/12/acting_smarter_.html

[/QUOTE]

Do you find that you relate to this?

 

[S.A.M.]

Correct.


Do you find that you relate to this?

See?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

How familiar are you with notions of objective reality as perceived by Muslims?

As familiar as they communicate it: www.gawaher.com

So all societies without the benefit of the last 200 years of change that the West has seen should fast forward themselves to meet the current Western standards of morality? Regardless of their desire or ability to comprehend or adapt to Western values?

If the East values the same things the West does then sure. If they don't or don't understand Western values then the West is going to add to the environmental pressure upon them because it is a dominant society.

IMO, all societies should have access to objective information concerning human behavior, human psychological needs, human biology, human temperment, human sexuality, etc. In fact, objective information about anything should probably be made available to all socieities.

It might help if you actually knew what you were talking about.

Have you ever seen a long term marriage where the couple is very happy and satisfied? What about one where the couple isn't (or got divorced)? If you have then you may or may not have had the opportunity to make a key observation. The happy and satisfied couples learned how to openly communicate and practice it on a daily basis. They have no fear of being dismissed or attacked. They share everything (even sad and scary content) and constantly learn from each other. The really extreme versions of these couples almost appear to act as one... sometimes despite huge differences in values. When other people see such couples in action they tend to want to be around them... alot of times with the thought 'what is it they have? I want some of that.'

That objectively tells us alot about healthy human psychology, so give me one reason why it could not applied to the Islamic Meme? IMO it would give it the capacity to adapt... something that it is really lacking.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

See?

... no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil?

 

[S.A.M.]

As familiar as they communicate it: www.gawaher.com

And what makes them representative?

If the East values the same things the West does then sure. If they don't or don't understand Western values then the West is going to add to the environmental pressure upon them because it is a dominant society.

Is this the bi-directional communication we were talking about?

IMO, all societies should have access to objective information concerning human behavior, human psychological needs, human biology, human temperment, human sexuality, etc. In fact, objective information about anything should probably be made available to all socieities.

Is this the "objective" information which the dominant Western society wants to pressure the not so dominant East with?

Have you ever seen a long term marriage where the couple is very happy and satisfied? What about one where the couple isn't (or got divorced)? If you have then you may or may not have had the opportunity to make a key observation. The happy and satisfied couples learned how to openly communicate and practice it on a daily basis. They have no fear of being dismissed or attacked. They share everything (even sad and scary content) and constantly learn from each other. The really extreme versions of these couples almost appear to act as one... sometimes despite huge differences in values. When other people see such couples in action they tend to want to be around them... alot of times with the thought 'what is it they have? I want some of that.'

That objectively tells us alot about healthy human psychology, so give me one reason why it could not applied to the Islamic Meme? IMO it would give it the capacity to adapt... something that it is really lacking.

Are you or have you ever been married?

 

[S.A.M.]

... no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil?

See... how effective bidirectional communication can be when one treats the other like a complete idiot?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

And what makes them representative?

They are Muslims.

Is this the bi-directional communication we were talking about?

Nope, communication might allieviate alot of that pressure however.

Is this the "objective" information which the dominant Western society wants to pressure the not so dominant East with?

Making something accessible isn't really a pressure. The content of the material could act as a pressure against an individual's beliefs (i.e. it could end up being comprehension of reality pressuring thestical belief).

Are you or have you ever been married?

I am Married.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

See... how effective bidirectional communication can be when one treats the other like a complete idiot?

I dismissed your message as silliness... not you as a retard (I'll leave that privilege to (Q) ).

 

[S.A.M.]

They are Muslims.

So what is your opinion about these Muslims?

What is their view of objective reality?

Nope, communication might allieviate alot of that pressure however.

Like in Iraq? Democracy to the rescue?

Making something accessible isn't really a pressure. The content of the material could act as a pressure against an individual's beliefs (i.e. it could end up being comprehension of reality pressuring thestical belief).

Does this work both ways?

Is Al-Jazeera available to all people in the US?

I am Married.

All the best.

 

[S.A.M.]

I dismissed your message as silliness... not you as a retard (I'll leave that privilege to (Q) ).

I can see that communication has failed on all levels here.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

So what is your opinion about these Muslims?

What is their view of objective reality?

Theistical fairytales.

Like in Iraq? Democracy to the rescue?

Sweet Jeebus... Iraq is a mess. The only positive thing that has come out of it IMO is that it's become a focal point for negative feedback in the Islamic world.

Does this work both ways?

Is Al-Jazeera available to all people in the US?

It would have to work both/all ways. I wasn't referring to the media when talking about sharing objective information. I was thinking science and psychology publcations for example. In fact I think the Media may aggravate negative behaviors of some folks.

All the best.

And she's a raging protestant to boot. What about you? Have a ball and chain on some unsuspecting denzien of Earth?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I can see that communication has failed on all levels here.

More importantly, can you tell me why?

 

[S.A.M.]

Theistical fairytales.

Is that your atheistically unbiased point of view?

Sweet Jeebus... Iraq is a mess. The only positive thing that has come out of it IMO is that it's become a focal point for negative feedback in the Islamic world.

All for democracy. Ends not means, etc.

It would have to work both/all ways. I wasn't referring to the media when talking about sharing objective information. I was thinking science and psychology publcations for example. In fact I think the Media may aggravate negative behaviors of some folks.

Oh boy! You are in lala land. Do you think that they are not accessible in Muslim countries? You do know that most doctors and scientists in the ME are trained in the West? I for one would like to see more ME and Asian media in the West, just a daily dose of reality, rather than all the "reality shows".

And she's a raging protestant to boot. What about you? Have a ball and chain on some unsuspecting denzien of Earth?

That sounds like fun.

Too much of a coward, I'm afraid.

 

[S.A.M.]

More importantly, can you tell me why?

Hell you couldn't even tell I was treating you like an idiot!

At least (Q) can tell when I'm yanking his chains.