Religion and Intelligence
- Thread starter Cris
- Start date
Free Cycle
Registered Senior Member
Cris,
What organisation does the religion and intelligence post come from?
What organisation does the religion and intelligence post come from?
"There is nothing wrong with my logic:
1) God is said to be omniscient "knows everything"
2) You say God didn't know Jesus would die on the cross.
3) So either a)you are wrong and God is omniscient
b) you are right and God is NOT omniscient"
I suggest you re-read my posts. I never said God didn't know Jesus woudl die on the cross.
Your arguement on this topic is actually quite useless. Basically what you are saying is this:
A) I am omniscient and all-powerful
B) I tell you the New Jersey Devils will win the Stanley Cup in 7 games
C) The New Jersey Devils win the Stanley Cup in 7 games
D) Had they NOT won, I would not be omniscient
E) Therefore I can not be all-powerful, as I could not have made the Devils lost
The problem is, what "might" have happened doesn't matter. I made my prediction and it was right. Therefore, my claim to omniscience holds. My all-powerfulness doesn't come into play.
What you are saying - as far as I understand - is that after having promised the Devils would win, I could not make them loose - therefore I'm not all-powerful. This is not true. Think of it in terms of a time line.
X-----------------Y
X is the point in which we currently stand. Y is the seventh game of the Stanley Cup finals. At point X I, as an omniscient and all-powerful being, make a prediction that the Devils will win the Cup in seven. They do so, and my omniscience is shown.
X----Z-----------Y1
-------\----------Y2
Now imagine this is our new timeline. At X I predict the New Jersey Devils will win the Stanley Cup. As of the current path of time, this is a truth, as time appears to be heading towards Y1. At point Z, however, I decide to enact my all-powerfulness and change the course of time. Time then reaches Y2, and it is true that the Anaheim Mighty Ducks win the Cup in seven.
If this seems complicated or to make little sense, it's actually a very, very common philosophical exercise. Only, typically it is presented in the form of a ball rolling off a table. Let me explain:
There is a table. On this table is a metal ball the size of, say, a hackey-sack. The ball is pushed slowly and begins to roll towards the end of the table. At this point I say: The ball will roll off the table. Three seconds later, I reach out my hand and stop the ball. This does not make my earlier statement false. The ball would have rolled off the table. I simply, as an outside source, prevented this from happening.
This is rather useless, but I'd like to also point out the complete difference in logic between philosophy and religion. In Christianity is accepted that God can be opposites. If God is all-powerful, he can be both right and wrong. This makes absolutely no sense, and so, like Cris said, the idea of anything being all-powerful is ridiculous. But remember, logic matters not when you're dealing with religious ideas such as this.
1) God is said to be omniscient "knows everything"
2) You say God didn't know Jesus would die on the cross.
3) So either a)you are wrong and God is omniscient
b) you are right and God is NOT omniscient"
I suggest you re-read my posts. I never said God didn't know Jesus woudl die on the cross.
Your arguement on this topic is actually quite useless. Basically what you are saying is this:
A) I am omniscient and all-powerful
B) I tell you the New Jersey Devils will win the Stanley Cup in 7 games
C) The New Jersey Devils win the Stanley Cup in 7 games
D) Had they NOT won, I would not be omniscient
E) Therefore I can not be all-powerful, as I could not have made the Devils lost
The problem is, what "might" have happened doesn't matter. I made my prediction and it was right. Therefore, my claim to omniscience holds. My all-powerfulness doesn't come into play.
What you are saying - as far as I understand - is that after having promised the Devils would win, I could not make them loose - therefore I'm not all-powerful. This is not true. Think of it in terms of a time line.
X-----------------Y
X is the point in which we currently stand. Y is the seventh game of the Stanley Cup finals. At point X I, as an omniscient and all-powerful being, make a prediction that the Devils will win the Cup in seven. They do so, and my omniscience is shown.
X----Z-----------Y1
-------\----------Y2
Now imagine this is our new timeline. At X I predict the New Jersey Devils will win the Stanley Cup. As of the current path of time, this is a truth, as time appears to be heading towards Y1. At point Z, however, I decide to enact my all-powerfulness and change the course of time. Time then reaches Y2, and it is true that the Anaheim Mighty Ducks win the Cup in seven.
If this seems complicated or to make little sense, it's actually a very, very common philosophical exercise. Only, typically it is presented in the form of a ball rolling off a table. Let me explain:
There is a table. On this table is a metal ball the size of, say, a hackey-sack. The ball is pushed slowly and begins to roll towards the end of the table. At this point I say: The ball will roll off the table. Three seconds later, I reach out my hand and stop the ball. This does not make my earlier statement false. The ball would have rolled off the table. I simply, as an outside source, prevented this from happening.
This is rather useless, but I'd like to also point out the complete difference in logic between philosophy and religion. In Christianity is accepted that God can be opposites. If God is all-powerful, he can be both right and wrong. This makes absolutely no sense, and so, like Cris said, the idea of anything being all-powerful is ridiculous. But remember, logic matters not when you're dealing with religious ideas such as this.
Here are some other sites that references many of the same surveys.
http://www20.brinkster.com/atheology/the_effect_of_intelligence_on_religious_faith.htm
http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html
http://www.cs.umass.edu/~danilche/texts/intelligence.txt
A typical summary -
...the general conclusion provides overwhelming evidence that, among American students and adults, the amount of religious faith tends to vary inversely and appreciably with intelligence.
http://www20.brinkster.com/atheology/the_effect_of_intelligence_on_religious_faith.htm
http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html
http://www.cs.umass.edu/~danilche/texts/intelligence.txt
A typical summary -
...the general conclusion provides overwhelming evidence that, among American students and adults, the amount of religious faith tends to vary inversely and appreciably with intelligence.
I know, but I did
Thats why your logic is wrong. You should really take time and read things properly before going off in a slant.
The explanation by Cris is excellent, I suggest you should read it.
Rather than try to fumble through answering Christian questions using logic, you should have a sound understanding of Christianity itself. Cris displays this brilliantly.
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And I heavily suggest you read my whole post. Your question and point are part of a very basic philosophical problem. I explained it in two different ways in my post. Now, unless I misunderstood your point - that is, you are not trying to say that God couldn't have interfeered with Jesus' death if he already 'knew' Jesus would die - then I really do point you back to my post. I have a year one university philosophy text book right behind me and I can quote this problem from the book if you'd really like.
Free Cycle
Registered Senior Member
Cris,
Thanks a lot, i appreciate it
Thanks a lot, i appreciate it
Okinrus,
That is true if those actions have not been pre-determined. If God knows beforehand what you are going to do then you are powerless to do anything else. You have simply been programmed and have no free will to do anything else.
Not quite, only what you said sounds nuts.
What is the connection?
Umm, no it doesn’t. Predetermination refers to the outcome of an event being determined before it occurs. And if something is known before it happens then the event must have been predetermined.
This doesn’t appear to have any relevance to predetermined events.
If predetermination cannot occur then God cannot be omniscient. If events are known before they occur then they will have been predetermined. Omniscience and predetermination are inseparably linked together. If either is present then free will is impossible.
But before Adam ate the apple he did not possess the knowledge of good and evil and hence did not know that eating from the tree and disobeying God was evil. This means that God tricked Adam and since this alleged sin of Adam is the basis for the need of a savior and hence the arrival of Jesus then we can see that Christianity is based on a fraud.
Everneo,
Your assurance isn’t accompanied by any proof so appears redundant.
Sorry but I don’t see what connection you are trying to make.
If you mean if free will does not exist then people are just puppets then yes. I didn’t understand the part about restriction.
I have not made any comment regarding the nuttiness of a religious fantasy, only about Okinrus’s statements.
Your assurance isn’t accompanied by any proof so appears redundant.
God cannot program us to lie. Thus logically
I have freewill because otherwise God would lie
and therefore God would not be good.
The case of Peter in the new testament sounds
similar to this but in fact it was Peter's choice
to deny Christ before even the last supper happened.
However God certainly did not want peter to deny him.
I believe along with most Christians
that we are accountable for our actions.
So then it is illogical to say that God knew beforehand.
Predestination not predetermination. I guess
there is slight difference. You can check Calvin's doctrin which explicitly uses "elect"
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/REFORM/CALVIN.HTM
Well in Calvin's philosophy if your elect for heaven, then nothing
you can do matters.
Not necessary. I believe omniscient, at least in Catholic
doctrin, means that God knows everything in the past upto the
present.
Why would God need to trick Adam when he can just
force Adam to eat it? It's nonsensical if we are predetermined.
Why not just create Adam in the fallen state?
The Serpent tricked Eve.
Okinrus,
I cannot find a definition of omniscience in the Catholic Encyclopedia, but there are many references to him being omniscient. Here is a reference to free will which mentions perfect foreknowledge which seems to contradict your assertion. Do you have a reference where omniscience is defined according to Catholicism?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm
If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat from the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil then he should not have put the tree where they could reach it since he must have known that he had not educated them on being able to determine the difference between good and evil or that it was wrong for them to disobey him.
In short neither Adam nor Eve had been made aware of the consequences of their actions since they did not possess the knowledge of good and evil. They only achieved that understanding once they had eaten the forbidden fruit.
How can Adam or Eve be held responsible for an action that they could not have possibly understood before they ate from the tree? For God to punish them and the rest of humanity either means that God is massively unjust or is a psychopathic monster. Or more likely the story is pure fantasy and no such being exists.
The justification for the need for man to be saved and the need for Jesus and the whole of Christianity is based on Adam disobeying God and eating from the tree. But since Adam could not have understood the nature of his actions then he cannot be held responsible and that makes the entirety of Christianity a sham.
In which case predetermination is ruled out and hence god cannot be omniscient (all knowing which includes knowledge of the future).
OK. Then we can rule out omniscience and predetermination.
The dictionaries appear to use the terms interchangeably. But I’m not using Calvin’s interpretations, just the simple meaning of the term.
So you are really claiming that God does not know anything about the future, right?
I cannot find a definition of omniscience in the Catholic Encyclopedia, but there are many references to him being omniscient. Here is a reference to free will which mentions perfect foreknowledge which seems to contradict your assertion. Do you have a reference where omniscience is defined according to Catholicism?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm
I agree. So how do you explain why God tricked Adam?
If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat from the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil then he should not have put the tree where they could reach it since he must have known that he had not educated them on being able to determine the difference between good and evil or that it was wrong for them to disobey him.
Ok so she should not have been punished by God either. She didn’t know it was wrong to eat from the tree and disobey God either. And since God created everything then he must have created the serpent as well and knew that she would be tricked. How much did God educate Eve on the trickiness of the serpent? How would she have known that the serpent was evil and could not be trusted? She wouldn’t even have known the concept of evil before she ate from the tree. She couldn’t know any of that because she had not eaten from the tree that gave her the knowledge of good and evil.
In short neither Adam nor Eve had been made aware of the consequences of their actions since they did not possess the knowledge of good and evil. They only achieved that understanding once they had eaten the forbidden fruit.
How can Adam or Eve be held responsible for an action that they could not have possibly understood before they ate from the tree? For God to punish them and the rest of humanity either means that God is massively unjust or is a psychopathic monster. Or more likely the story is pure fantasy and no such being exists.
The justification for the need for man to be saved and the need for Jesus and the whole of Christianity is based on Adam disobeying God and eating from the tree. But since Adam could not have understood the nature of his actions then he cannot be held responsible and that makes the entirety of Christianity a sham.
Even in an allegory we have to remain true to
the story.
God might know what he is going to do. Also
God is able to predict the future better than us
since he is in every heart.
I think as long as you admit that we have freewill it's not
heretical. Omniscience was probably borrowed from the Greeks.
I think If God knew the future then the future
would instantly become the present.
Circe,
But if the story of Adam and Eve isn’t true then the reason why Jesus came to save humanity becomes nonsense as well.
It was Adam’s sins that condemned the rest of humanity to death and created the need for a savior and the justification for Christianity. If Adam never existed then Christianity and the need for a savior and the entire purpose for the existence of Jesus, and the whole crucifixion story becomes meaningless gibberish.
I agree that it must be a fairy story, especially since we know homo-sapiens evolved from earlier life forms.
But if the story of Adam and Eve isn’t true then the reason why Jesus came to save humanity becomes nonsense as well.
It was Adam’s sins that condemned the rest of humanity to death and created the need for a savior and the justification for Christianity. If Adam never existed then Christianity and the need for a savior and the entire purpose for the existence of Jesus, and the whole crucifixion story becomes meaningless gibberish.
Cris,
Actually i am somewhat tired of pointing out that above logic is not correct in different threads.
Why an all-powerful God should have the knowledge of future (that is yet to happen and does not exist) if he is able to decide the future based on certain event. He can decide either way and there is none to restrict Him, other than Himself (by way of commitment to free will he gifted away), to decide future in anyway.
If i have infinite source of money why should i bother to have a budget plan as to how to control the expenditure..?
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