Religion and Intelligence
- Thread starter Cris
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"If God is omniscient then he would have known Jesus would die on the cross. Therefore God could not have saved Jesus , for if he did, this would make God a liar which is not possible"
Your logic is completely faulty. Here, let's take this step by step.
A) God is omniscient
B) God knew Jesus would die on the cross
C) Jesus did, according to Christianity, die on the cross
D) If Jesus didn't die on the cross, God would not be omniscient
E) Therefore, Jesus had to die on the cross.
Your mistake is in step (B). You say God knew Jesus would die on the cross. If (A) is true and (B) is true, (D) is useless. It's like saying:
A) 1 + 1 = 2
B) If 1 + 1 /= 2, then 1 + 1 does not equal 2
(B) is not a useful statement because you've already stated (A) to be true.
Basically, what I'm trying to tell you is that it's not "impossible" for God to have stopped Jesus from dying on the cross. It just means that God never "knew" Jesus would die on the cross. Because he's omniscient he would have known Jesus wouldn't die on the cross. Your logic is flawed, sorry.
Your logic is completely faulty. Here, let's take this step by step.
A) God is omniscient
B) God knew Jesus would die on the cross
C) Jesus did, according to Christianity, die on the cross
D) If Jesus didn't die on the cross, God would not be omniscient
E) Therefore, Jesus had to die on the cross.
Your mistake is in step (B). You say God knew Jesus would die on the cross. If (A) is true and (B) is true, (D) is useless. It's like saying:
A) 1 + 1 = 2
B) If 1 + 1 /= 2, then 1 + 1 does not equal 2
(B) is not a useful statement because you've already stated (A) to be true.
Basically, what I'm trying to tell you is that it's not "impossible" for God to have stopped Jesus from dying on the cross. It just means that God never "knew" Jesus would die on the cross. Because he's omniscient he would have known Jesus wouldn't die on the cross. Your logic is flawed, sorry.
God does not know the future of everything.
However in this case he predicted it.
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1 Then Balaam gave voice to his oracle: From Aram has Balak brought me here, Moab's king, from the Eastern Mountains: "Come and lay a curse for me on Jacob, come and denounce Israel."
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How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
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2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations.
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3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel's wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!
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"What have you done to me?" cried Balak to Balaam. "It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them."
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Balaam replied, "Is it not what the LORD puts in my mouth that I must repeat with care?"
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However in this case he predicted it.
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1 Then Balaam gave voice to his oracle: From Aram has Balak brought me here, Moab's king, from the Eastern Mountains: "Come and lay a curse for me on Jacob, come and denounce Israel."
8
How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9
2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations.
10
3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel's wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!
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"What have you done to me?" cried Balak to Balaam. "It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them."
12
Balaam replied, "Is it not what the LORD puts in my mouth that I must repeat with care?"
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If God does not know the future of everything then I must presume that God cannot be Omniscient. If God is not Omniscient then there is no God. I have heard many explanations of this and now it seems that others say I'm wrong to what I've learnt, and I've heard people disagree with each other on the same argument. Have I found a flaw here??
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nope, not once have I questioned my morals, they are very good, they're what my parents taught me, that is what i live by. also, people who aren't necessarily smart are not then void of love. on the reverse they sometimes demand more attention than others.
why would those with a higher IQ fail their subjects? when i said i pasted my friends they still passed, i just did better than them.
and finally, who else could i credit my success to? i work for the marks i get, for my friends, for competitions. why would i give someone else the credit for what i have achieved personally?
An all powerful God is able to give up
some of his control and create creatures with freewill.
Strange as it may be, an all powerful God is able to
give some of his power to his creatures. What
is sure though is that at any moment God
can relinquish control. He is still all-powerful.
"If God "knows all" how can it be possible for God not to know that Jesus would die on the cross.
If Jesus had not died on the cross, he would not have been able to "rise again", for thats the way God planned it."
And this does not prove that it's "impossible" for God to have stopped Jesus from dying on the cross. What is impossible is for God to have believed Jesus would die and then for Jesus not to have died (be it because of God or not because of God). There's just a simple slip up in your logic, and it's not entirely hard to make.
And no, I'm neither a Christian nor religious period.
If Jesus had not died on the cross, he would not have been able to "rise again", for thats the way God planned it."
And this does not prove that it's "impossible" for God to have stopped Jesus from dying on the cross. What is impossible is for God to have believed Jesus would die and then for Jesus not to have died (be it because of God or not because of God). There's just a simple slip up in your logic, and it's not entirely hard to make.
And no, I'm neither a Christian nor religious period.
Yes, I am Christian.
I have tested my parents morals, what they taught me
by action and in words. I have found some to be
lacking but those that weren't I kept.
Well constantly thinking that you achieved everything
by yourself is not true. Obviously you do not think
that because you got your morals, to be a hard worker, from your parants.
Cris
Loved the article. Thanks.
Loved the article. Thanks.
nice post, i guess i was caught up in what i was saying (i'm guilty) my parents have only provided me with basic morals, like being nice to people and not killing, etc. my parents could never have provided me with all the morals i have today, i have developed those on my own through trial and error. the morals my parents taught me are good morals, even though they are the basic ones- those are why i have never had to test them.
i was meaning that i couldn't credit some higher being with my success as they had no personal involvement in my development. i give my thanks to my parents for bringing me up well, my teachers etc. i just thought from your earlier post you were infering that people should be giving thanks to god for their success, i was disagreeing with that.
well done on picking apart my post tho
Okinrus,
The nice thing about religious fantasies like gods is that they are not constrained by anything that makes sense, like reality, so one is free to allow their alpha-waves to free wheel and create some superb imaginative images.
If he has given up some of his power then he would no longer be an all-powerful god. Since people are deemed to have freewill then we can assume that the Christian god is a substandard god, i.e. not all-powerful as advertised.
Not strange just nuts, you’re just making this up as you go along. Do you have a scripture to support that? Although there are some very nutty scriptures so that wouldn’t add much value to your claim.
So when he chooses to take full control all that power he gave over to make people have free will disappear from them and they will no longer have free will. How often does this happen? Does he phase in and out at regular intervals or what?
The nice thing about religious fantasies like gods is that they are not constrained by anything that makes sense, like reality, so one is free to allow their alpha-waves to free wheel and create some superb imaginative images.
Stu43t,
It goes something like this –
If there is a creator god who is omniscient then human free-will would be impossible since any choice the humans felt were according to their free will would have been pre-determined from the moment of creation, a long time before they were even born.
If human free will is impossible then Christianity is a mockery since it depends on human free will to choose Jesus as a savior. If all human decisions are pre-determined then god would have arbitrarily selected some humans for heaven and others for hell. Note that he would have known this at the moment of creation before anyone had had a chance to live their lives and make their own decisions. In this case all humans are simply meaningless puppets in the hands of psychopathic monster.
Since this is at odds with the alleged loving god of Christianity then such a god cannot exist.
If human free will is possible and decisions can be made that are not pre-determined then a creator god cannot be omniscient. If God lacks this basic property of a god then he cannot be all-powerful since he lacks a vital ability. Without these abilities he cannot be the god as defined by Christianity.
Either way you view the paradox the Christian god cannot exist.
Are you referring to the paradox between free will and omniscience?
It goes something like this –
If there is a creator god who is omniscient then human free-will would be impossible since any choice the humans felt were according to their free will would have been pre-determined from the moment of creation, a long time before they were even born.
If human free will is impossible then Christianity is a mockery since it depends on human free will to choose Jesus as a savior. If all human decisions are pre-determined then god would have arbitrarily selected some humans for heaven and others for hell. Note that he would have known this at the moment of creation before anyone had had a chance to live their lives and make their own decisions. In this case all humans are simply meaningless puppets in the hands of psychopathic monster.
Since this is at odds with the alleged loving god of Christianity then such a god cannot exist.
If human free will is possible and decisions can be made that are not pre-determined then a creator god cannot be omniscient. If God lacks this basic property of a god then he cannot be all-powerful since he lacks a vital ability. Without these abilities he cannot be the god as defined by Christianity.
Either way you view the paradox the Christian god cannot exist.
Agent Smith,
It was Einstein that pushed his theories through on his own. It was Galileo who made the critical observations, and Darwin who risked everything when he published his observations. Look back at all the major discoveries and inventions of the past and I suspect that the vast majority were the result of inspiration and energy of a single person. Once the ideas were introduced then of course whole teams would take over and enhance them.
It’s a nice idea but history says otherwise.
It was Einstein that pushed his theories through on his own. It was Galileo who made the critical observations, and Darwin who risked everything when he published his observations. Look back at all the major discoveries and inventions of the past and I suspect that the vast majority were the result of inspiration and energy of a single person. Once the ideas were introduced then of course whole teams would take over and enhance them.
Then it would appear from the observed facts that Christian beliefs have no validity. And testing the powers of a fantasy doesn’t seem to be much of a problem.
And at this point I can’t see the relevance of this statement to my post, sorry.
Well what I mean is that God can create kind of
like a sand box where the children have freewill
to play in. However there are certain boundaries.
Another example would be a modern protective
operating system. In theory the programs run
by a user won't crash the operating system however
they still accomplish something. We still
say the operating system is all powerfull because
only the operating system has full control over the
machine.
on a piece of paper. Below write "I am not nuts".
If God does not stop you, then you
can be assured that you have freewill and are not nuts.
You say that I'm nuts but the people who believe
that God creates his own enemies are truely nuts.
Predestination is illogical because
why would the books in the bible be written?
Predestination uses the term "the elect". However that word was
borrowed from http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/enoch.html
and only concerns the last days. Elect here should be taken in light of "many have been called but few have been chosen". Calvin of course would not know that as the book of Enoch remained lost to Europe for some time until it was found in the 1800s.
Predestination brings into notion of a clock master
type God held by Newton and most of the enlightenment. However even now this seems to be disproved by modern physics. Love and especially love of God has to be chosen with freewill.
In Genesis Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil. However it was Adam's choice not God's otherwise
God would not punish Adam.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:29
"I mean not your own conscience, but the other's. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else's conscience?"
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:24
"then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his
God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty
and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death..."
Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven
and gives him the power to bind those on earth.
Jesus gives his deciples the power to trample over snakes, scorpians etc.
John 3:27
"John answered and said, "No one can receive anything except what has been given him from heaven."
'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand till I make your
enemies your footstoll."
Luke 12:41
Then Peter said, "Lord, is this parable meant
for us or for everyone?". And the Lord replied,
"Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute the food allowance at the proper time?".
the freewill to do many more things. The goal is
that our souls when we will go to heaven will be purified
so that we cannot. In Johns letter, he directly
says that the sons of God cannot sin. We still will
have freewill but our choice to love God has been made and
is final.
like a sand box where the children have freewill
to play in. However there are certain boundaries.
Another example would be a modern protective
operating system. In theory the programs run
by a user won't crash the operating system however
they still accomplish something. We still
say the operating system is all powerfull because
only the operating system has full control over the
machine.
The most beneficial exercise is to write "I have freewill"
on a piece of paper. Below write "I am not nuts".
If God does not stop you, then you
can be assured that you have freewill and are not nuts.
You say that I'm nuts but the people who believe
that God creates his own enemies are truely nuts.
Predestination is illogical because
why would the books in the bible be written?
Predestination uses the term "the elect". However that word was
borrowed from http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/enoch.html
and only concerns the last days. Elect here should be taken in light of "many have been called but few have been chosen". Calvin of course would not know that as the book of Enoch remained lost to Europe for some time until it was found in the 1800s.
Predestination brings into notion of a clock master
type God held by Newton and most of the enlightenment. However even now this seems to be disproved by modern physics. Love and especially love of God has to be chosen with freewill.
In Genesis Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil. However it was Adam's choice not God's otherwise
God would not punish Adam.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:29
"I mean not your own conscience, but the other's. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else's conscience?"
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:24
"then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his
God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty
and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death..."
Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven
and gives him the power to bind those on earth.
Jesus gives his deciples the power to trample over snakes, scorpians etc.
John 3:27
"John answered and said, "No one can receive anything except what has been given him from heaven."
'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand till I make your
enemies your footstoll."
Luke 12:41
Then Peter said, "Lord, is this parable meant
for us or for everyone?". And the Lord replied,
"Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute the food allowance at the proper time?".
Well right now we have freewill to do evil along with
the freewill to do many more things. The goal is
that our souls when we will go to heaven will be purified
so that we cannot. In Johns letter, he directly
says that the sons of God cannot sin. We still will
have freewill but our choice to love God has been made and
is final.
Tiassa,
Take care.
Cris
No problem. Although I’m sure I’ve not noticed anyone getting sick of you.
It is often fun and an enjoyable challenge at times, until it wins, and then it is not so good.
But do we really want that? Isn’t diversity one of our strengths? Perhaps it is just lack of tolerance that is the issue.
I’m not sure that I am a witness to that. From my perhaps limited viewpoint those who create and innovate are desperate to publish and tell others.
I guess I find it difficult to become passionate about the issue. I find myself more of an observer than a participant, even though I enjoy debating the issues; I feel more like a catalyst or someone who is operating the TV remote control.
That feels more like the limitations of sciforums where the turnover of members is such that frequent newcomers always need the introduction again. But then the discussions never seem to go very far once the positions have been explained. Somehow I don’t see sciforums breaking out of that loop, but I don’t mind repeating myself, I’m not bored yet. But this seems to be reality in the same way that new children at school need to be told that 1+1=2. Of greater interest for me is not the theist versus atheist contest but what happens next for humanity, and I’ll be truthful what chance for me to survive in the long-term?
Atheism is an opposing (doesn’t exist) or neutral view (disbelief). It is what it is. Why not move on?
And is it so bad that I enjoy that? I keep wondering why I remain here and in this forum, but I do, perhaps I hope that others might learn from what I write, but I doubt that is much. I dunno, I’m curious as to the attraction I have for this forum. Perhaps I find it so easy to refute and deride something so obviously wrong, it is perhaps like a drug and I can’t stay away.
Feels like you are going to hold that against me when I quote an atheist for an outstanding accomplishment.
Take care.
Cris
Cris,
excuse me for interuption.
If my child mischieviously kicks me would that mean i have become weak..?
If there is no free will gift then humans are animated as per His will. There is no making up here. This is what free will means, though restricted.
PS: Cris, the strange action of God seems 'nuts' to you, i presume..! not nuts i assure you..!
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