Sooo if Tiassa wants a hold, why are people replying, then again if tiassa wants a hold he could have closed the thread.
Yes you are, in some cases at least. That seems self-evident in this remark:The mother chose abortion, in this case to prolong her own life. You would deny that choice by force of law - as in: "if the extraction is going to kill her then and there so be it." Would you label that "pro-choice"? Do you need a dictionary to aid you here?
I'm sorry but this issue is one of gradients, you can't lump me in with the pro-lifers simply because in that one kind of case I side with a the fetus, might as well call me a terrorist as well. Should I call you an advocate of child murder because there is no situation what so ever in which the child's life would come before the rights of the women, by your ethics?
Ethically consistent? the only thing consistent about your "ethics" is that you place the potential life of a foetus over the life of the mother.
In that one case once the fetus becomes viable its rights start to be considered and need to be weighed against the rights of the mother, usually the mother wins out, but via my ethics a terminally ill women does not have the right to take her viable fetus to the grave with her. What would be inconsistent is me coming out with an outcome that does not work via my own ethical framework.
It's really pretty obvious EF. To you, if the foetus is "viable" its rights outweigh the mothers. Every time. Right?
No absolutely not every time! I stated so repeatedly already, repeatedly stated several metrics via which the mother's rights would outweigh the fetus: being sentient, being a part of society, etc. Rarely would the mothers rights be outweighed by the fetus, only in a case where somehow it is either kill a viable fetus (such that somehow aborting will do less harm to the mother then extracting it alive) or the mother AND the mothers life span and quality of life is already so compromised that she won't survive a full pregnancy anyways. Oh and and cases of a mother being a brain dead beating heart cadaver would warrant siding with the viable fetus via my ethics.
Purely hypothetical, eh? I think it's not much of a stretch to get from here:
]The mother of a pregnant leukemia patient who died after her chemotherapy was delayed over anti- abortion laws is accusing doctors of not putting her daughter's health first. The 16-year-old's plight attracted worldwide attention after she had to wait for chemotherapy because of an abortion ban in the Dominican Republic. Doctors were hesitant to give her chemotherapy because such treatment could terminate the pregnancy -- a violation of the Dominican Constitution, which bans abortion. Some 20 days after she was admitted to the hospital, she finally started receiving treatment. She died Friday, a hospital official said.
Was the fetus viable, No, then she should have been allowed an abortion via my ethics. Even if the fetus was viable by my ethics the outcome would have been immediate extraction of the fetus alive, followed by chemo, a delay of treatment of a hours at most.
Again here are the parameters of the scenario in which I side with the fetus:
1. the fetus needs to be viable, that means 24 weeks or latter, not 13.
2. the women needs to be dying such that she will be dead before a full term pregnancy.
3. extracting the fetus alive (c-section, induce labor) will be more harmful to the mother then extraction it dead (abortion).
It must have all 3 of those.
Do you really find that such a stretch to imagine? This is a real example of a real woman's death due to real legal restraints on abortion. But hey, it's all good with you right?
No, it's not, that event violates my ethics as the fetus was not viable.
You see, I couldn't care less about your sexual orientation or lifestyle choices. That's the difference between me and your crowd. I don't give a hoot who is or isn't shagging who or when or where - that's your choice. I don't care if you get high or not - that's your choice. I believe a woman should be able to have a choice about what happens inside her own body. Do you see a pattern here yet EF?
I believe a women should have a choice about what goes on inside her body as well, all I'm saying is that if a women wants a viable fetus removed (aborted), it is just going to be removed alive, placed in an incubator and given up for adoption (because the mother does not want it). So I'm not forcing women to carry pregnancies to term that they don't want. There is no difference in that from a pro-choice stance: women still have a choice to have it extracted, it just after 24 weeks it should be extracted alive, not intentionally killed, it should be put in an incubator to fight for its own life free of burden to the mother, against her will.
Exceptions where the mother still retains the right to have it kill intentionally, and not just have it extracted, can be given to cases where the fetus is so deformed or diseased as such that it can't survive outside the womb yet, or will likely not survive long outside the womb even if birthed after a full term all this I would qualify as still making the fetus inviable and thus abortion is still a righteous option. Making an exact cut off leads us into eugenics, assuming that we don't count all the abortions on demand before viability of defective fetus, in that case we simply don't ask why the women wanted it aborted so we can pretend eugenics is not happening, which ever it is, it is better for society.
Or when the mother's health would be hindered such that the risk to her life and quality of life of a c-section/induced labor would be greater then then a late term abortion and greater then the quality of life of the fetus, which is limited at that point. Since the fetus has no consciousness, no social value, what value it can provide is purely hypothetical, besides the statistical value of greater then 50% chance that it can survive outside the womb (point of viability). It would require that the mothers life and quality of life would need to be phenomenally degraded for the fetus's rights to override hers.
As such I judge that if a terminally ill women would be more likely to die from a c-section then an abortion, and her viable fetus has a good chance at surviving and living a normal life span and she on the other hand is very unlikely to live beyond a full pregnancy, then the c-section is the best option. Aside for that and cases of brain-dead beating heart cadavers, I see no other situations in which the mothers rights are overridden by the fetus.
The only relevance this remark regarding your plans to marry is that it affirms something. It affirms that you will never be directly affected by your proposition "if the extraction is going to kill her then and there so be it" because you're not a woman. Your life partner will never be directly affected by your proposition "if the extraction is going to kill her then and there so be it" because you will never marry or father a child. How very convenient for you to pass judgement and advocate force of law to proscribe something that will never even effect you at all, except in some abstract bruising of your "ethics". How pretentious can one get? Or, to borrow one of LG's little aphorisms: Will the irony never end?
I'm sorry but most laws are made usually be people that never experience what the laws are made for. Roe vs Wade was decided entirely by men for example. You might find that ironic (although I don't know how it fits the definition of “irony”) but I abide by their decision and that means viability is a point at which abortions can be regulated and requiring special circumstance, I advocate in its place c-sections/labor on demand passed the point of viability.
I also think it particularly sexist to state that laws that affect one gender more then another need be only made by members of that gender. We live in society together and I would only find that acceptable if we live in two completely segregated societies. Until then we ALL have a right to say, criticize or state opinion on any law or social policy, regardless if it could never directly affect us.
Again as explained before you are being deliberately obtuse in your refusal to recognize the parameters and constraints set forth in the original hypothetical. It doesn't matter anymore though because your true colors bled through anyway.
What are the parameters of the original hypothetical I'm missing?
no, not really.
Good I'm glad we can agree on something... sort of.