Redux: Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Do I support the proposition? (see post #2)


  • Total voters
    18
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have to address this:

It is however an opinion that contingency (biological or otherwise) of an entity equates with a lesser grant of rights.
How else?
The less self-sufficient one is, the fewer rights one has - and the more one has to depend on the mercy of others.

I'm not necessarily supporting this outlook, but I cannot think of _any_ area of life where it would not apply.


Sure, on some Machiavellian level of ruthlessness, there is a certain value in getting rid of contingent personalities (the old, the weak, the disabled) however human civilization seems to be built on the precept of the strong protecting the weak as opposed to sending them to the slaughterhouse or whatever.

Even religious organizations get rid of those who are physically, mentally and especially spiritually old, weak and disabled.
 
Again without personhood, helping, mercy for the weak is questionable. Do we give mercy to vegetables? Arguable a fetus has less awareness and feelings then most animals.

RussellCrawford,

No one ever corrects themselves and agrees with their opponent in an internet argument, it causes the opponent to become dumbfounded, can even lead to head-explosion... excuse me will I get some ibuprofen.
 
For example, those who believe women are too stupid or irresponsible to know or do better, I'd say have a problem with women, wouldn't you?

Definitely. Although such people are in the great minority. (For example, most pro-life women do not think that they are too stupid and irresponsible to know better.)
 
The Powerf of a "Great Minority"

Billvon said:

Although such people are in the great minority.

There is enough of them to pass laws in diverse states. How many groups of people "in the great minority" can do that?

Wisconsin, Virginia, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina, Michigan. One wonders why the state feels the need to insert itself not only between the doctor and patient, but into the patient. Of course, people in great minority always write the laws, right? That's why we have wars and taxes?

No, seriously, what's with this need to understate what's going on? Mitigation through denial?
 
Treating a dead woman as an incubator for a nonperson

Straining credulity
Marlise suffered a suspected pulmonary embolism on November 26 that left her brain-dead, despite attempts to resuscitate her. Her husband says she would not have wanted to be kept alive on a ventilator. Working as paramedics, the couple had discussed such a scenario many times--especially after Marlise's brother died several years ago. "It's our decision that we didn't want to live in that condition," Erick Munoz told the Houston Chronicle.

But because Marlise Munnoz was 14 weeks pregnant at the time she became brain-dead, John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth, Texas, is refusing to follow her wishes or those of her husband and remove her from a ventilator. The hospital claims a Texas law prohibits it from following such a family directive when a pregnancy is involved.

http://socialistworker.org/2014/01/09/treating-a-woman-as-an-incubator
 
There is enough of them to pass laws in diverse states. How many groups of people "in the great minority" can do that?

Your "them" is not the same as the "them" I was referring to.

A great minority "believe women are too stupid or irresponsible to know or do better."

A larger percentage of people - including many women - are pro-life.
 
Straining credulity
This was reported here in Australia a couple of weeks ago and I do remember posting about it as well.

It is hard to understand how this could be deemed acceptable.

The family are now suing the hospital. This isn't a case of keeping her on life support for a few weeks. They plan to keep her on life support for months. I read somewhere at one point that they were even considering going beyond the 24 weeks gestation.


The fetus is now in its 20thweek, and the family claim the hospital doctors have said they will “make a decision about what to do with the fetus as it reached 22 to 24 weeks,” and that they have discussed whether Munoz will be able to carry the baby to full term for a cesarean. Her father, Ernest Machado says, “All she is is a host for a fetus … We have no input in the decision-making process. They’re prolonging our agony.”


I cannot for the life of me understand how something like this could happen. And the laws in Texas also exist in other States as well. As denial of rights go, this one is right up there:

Although “pregnancy exclusion” laws have been on the books for more than two decades, the case of the now 19-week pregnant Marlise Munoz in Texas is bringing attention to the laws in more than 30 states that explicitly establish a separate and unequal status for women. These laws exclude pregnant women from the right given to other people to direct in a living will that life support be stopped, or to authorize a family member to make that decision if they have no living will.

Rather than archaic sexist laws left on the books from earlier times, the pregnancy exclusions are of a recent vintage. They establish that while men are free to determine what will happen to them if they become sick and unable to communicate their health-care wishes, women who may become pregnant are not free to plan the course of their health care, lives, and deaths.



By relying on a Texas law that states “a person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient,” the hospital has refused to allow Munoz’s husband and her family to make what should be a private decision to remove her body from mechanical support. Apparently this law that clearly applies to life-sustaining treatment of a pregnant woman who is alive is being interpreted to permit actions solely to sustain the life of the fetus. As a result, Munoz’s body will remain a fetal gestator for as long as hospital staff, acting on behalf of the state, chooses. In her case, the physicians say they will decide at 24 weeks (over two months after her death) whether to continue the use of her body to gestate the pregnancy or to cut her body open and perform cesarean surgery. All of this is medically complex and none of it ensures a healthy birth outcome.

It is hard to imagine a more absolute denial of a woman’s personhood than depriving her of the right to decide her own future, and then literally using her body without permission—possibly for weeks or months—as an object for a fetus to grow in. Yet this is exactly what the pregnancy exclusions envision in the 31 states that have passed them. A majority of these laws prohibit life support from being withdrawn from a woman even if she retains some consciousness and is suffering extreme pain. In Texas and many other states, the laws would prohibit doctors from following a woman’s wishes to remove life support even in the earliest stages of pregnancy.



Not only is she being kept this way against her wishes, that of her family and her husband, but they may decide to keep her like this until she is 40 weeks.

At present, they do not know if the "child" will be able to survive without the life support that is artificially keeping the mother's heart beating. The mother is completely brain dead. There is no chance she will wake up. She is, by every definition, dead. The "child" could very well be in the same state. All they do know is that the heart is beating. In the meantime, they are going to keep going like this and see whether it is also brain dead or not. She is legally dead in every sense of the word. She has not breathed on her own since she collapsed and her heart has not beaten on its own since that time either. This is what happens with deeming even a fertilised egg a "person". Had she been 6 weeks pregnant, the result would have been the same.

In response, the hospital has hired a prominent anti-choice lawyer, because as the family and legal experts see it, the hospital is interpreting the law in a way that it was never meant to be interpreted:

“If she is dead, I don’t see how she can be a patient, and I don’t see how we can be talking about treatment options for her,” said Thomas W. Mayo, an expert on health care law and bioethics at the Southern Methodist University law school in Dallas.

Arthur L. Caplan, director of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center in Manhattan, agreed. “The Texas Legislature can’t require doctors to do the impossible and try to treat someone who’s dead,” Mr. Caplan said. “I don’t think they intended this statute the way the hospital is interpreting it.”

Critics of the hospital’s actions also note that the fetus has not reached the point of viability outside the womb and that Ms. Munoz would have a constitutional right to an abortion.


The family were told that it was possible that she had been without oxygen for up to an hour, before she was discovered. Her foetus was also without oxygen for that length of time. All they do know is that there is a foetal heartbeat. And that is it. As linked earlier, foetal heartbeat has also been used as an excuse to not treat ectopic pregnancies or even women who have miscarried and have gone septic. In this instance, the foetal heartbeat is forcing a dead woman to remain on life support against hers and her family's wishes.

There is absolutely no excuse for such a denial of rights and a clear difference in rights. It is exceptionally sexist.
 
Well that case is a moral quagmire outside the range of most abortions. The problem here is the "incubator" is a brain-dead women, and thus her personhood is in question, she may ethically be just as much of a person as the fetus insider her now. Is this a violation of her rights, she brain-dead, she no longer aware or capable of caring that her rights are being violated. Tell me if you died and instead of being buried as you wished your spiteful relatives cremate you and then flushed your ashes in a toilet, do you care? Your dead, what happens to your remains is of little concern after you dead, because your no longer capable of concern, sure your relatives are assholse and cunts but technically no harm was done.
 
This was reported here in Australia a couple of weeks ago and I do remember posting about it as well.

It is hard to understand how this could be deemed acceptable.

The family are now suing the hospital. This isn't a case of keeping her on life support for a few weeks. They plan to keep her on life support for months. I read somewhere at one point that they were even considering going beyond the 24 weeks gestation.


The fetus is now in its 20thweek, and the family claim the hospital doctors have said they will “make a decision about what to do with the fetus as it reached 22 to 24 weeks,” and that they have discussed whether Munoz will be able to carry the baby to full term for a cesarean. Her father, Ernest Machado says, “All she is is a host for a fetus … We have no input in the decision-making process. They’re prolonging our agony.”


I cannot for the life of me understand how something like this could happen. And the laws in Texas also exist in other States as well. As denial of rights go, this one is right up there:

Although “pregnancy exclusion” laws have been on the books for more than two decades, the case of the now 19-week pregnant Marlise Munoz in Texas is bringing attention to the laws in more than 30 states that explicitly establish a separate and unequal status for women. These laws exclude pregnant women from the right given to other people to direct in a living will that life support be stopped, or to authorize a family member to make that decision if they have no living will.

Rather than archaic sexist laws left on the books from earlier times, the pregnancy exclusions are of a recent vintage. They establish that while men are free to determine what will happen to them if they become sick and unable to communicate their health-care wishes, women who may become pregnant are not free to plan the course of their health care, lives, and deaths.



By relying on a Texas law that states “a person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient,” the hospital has refused to allow Munoz’s husband and her family to make what should be a private decision to remove her body from mechanical support. Apparently this law that clearly applies to life-sustaining treatment of a pregnant woman who is alive is being interpreted to permit actions solely to sustain the life of the fetus. As a result, Munoz’s body will remain a fetal gestator for as long as hospital staff, acting on behalf of the state, chooses. In her case, the physicians say they will decide at 24 weeks (over two months after her death) whether to continue the use of her body to gestate the pregnancy or to cut her body open and perform cesarean surgery. All of this is medically complex and none of it ensures a healthy birth outcome.

It is hard to imagine a more absolute denial of a woman’s personhood than depriving her of the right to decide her own future, and then literally using her body without permission—possibly for weeks or months—as an object for a fetus to grow in. Yet this is exactly what the pregnancy exclusions envision in the 31 states that have passed them. A majority of these laws prohibit life support from being withdrawn from a woman even if she retains some consciousness and is suffering extreme pain. In Texas and many other states, the laws would prohibit doctors from following a woman’s wishes to remove life support even in the earliest stages of pregnancy.



Not only is she being kept this way against her wishes, that of her family and her husband, but they may decide to keep her like this until she is 40 weeks.

At present, they do not know if the "child" will be able to survive without the life support that is artificially keeping the mother's heart beating. The mother is completely brain dead. There is no chance she will wake up. She is, by every definition, dead. The "child" could very well be in the same state. All they do know is that the heart is beating. In the meantime, they are going to keep going like this and see whether it is also brain dead or not. She is legally dead in every sense of the word. She has not breathed on her own since she collapsed and her heart has not beaten on its own since that time either. This is what happens with deeming even a fertilised egg a "person". Had she been 6 weeks pregnant, the result would have been the same.

In response, the hospital has hired a prominent anti-choice lawyer, because as the family and legal experts see it, the hospital is interpreting the law in a way that it was never meant to be interpreted:

“If she is dead, I don’t see how she can be a patient, and I don’t see how we can be talking about treatment options for her,” said Thomas W. Mayo, an expert on health care law and bioethics at the Southern Methodist University law school in Dallas.

Arthur L. Caplan, director of medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center in Manhattan, agreed. “The Texas Legislature can’t require doctors to do the impossible and try to treat someone who’s dead,” Mr. Caplan said. “I don’t think they intended this statute the way the hospital is interpreting it.”

Critics of the hospital’s actions also note that the fetus has not reached the point of viability outside the womb and that Ms. Munoz would have a constitutional right to an abortion.


The family were told that it was possible that she had been without oxygen for up to an hour, before she was discovered. Her foetus was also without oxygen for that length of time. All they do know is that there is a foetal heartbeat. And that is it. As linked earlier, foetal heartbeat has also been used as an excuse to not treat ectopic pregnancies or even women who have miscarried and have gone septic. In this instance, the foetal heartbeat is forcing a dead woman to remain on life support against hers and her family's wishes.

There is absolutely no excuse for such a denial of rights and a clear difference in rights. It is exceptionally sexist.

just out of interest who is it that you are most offended for in this? if she is brain dead she ISN'T a person, she is a body and we use brain dead bodies all the time, for example for organ donation. In fact the use of your body after death is the only thing you have no right to determine, organ donation is all down to your next of kin, what you say about it is irreverent and only used to convince your next of kin, same with the disposal of your body, you can determine what happens to all your possessions in your will but what happens to your body is only up to your next of kin. Further more there have been lots of recent examples of dead males being harvested by there wives for sperm or having sperm already extracted used after there death

so in reality i wonder if this is a women's rights issue at all, rather its about what your PARTNER wants to do and what rights your partner has to make decisions for you (or your parents or children if you have no partner)
 
Wow and double wow..

Well that case is a moral quagmire outside the range of most abortions. The problem here is the "incubator" is a brain-dead women, and thus her personhood is in question, she may ethically be just as much of a person as the fetus insider her now. Is this a violation of her rights, she brain-dead, she no longer aware or capable of caring that her rights are being violated. Tell me if you died and instead of being buried as you wished your spiteful relatives cremate you and then flushed your ashes in a toilet, do you care? Your dead, what happens to your remains is of little concern after you dead, because your no longer capable of concern, sure your relatives are assholse and cunts but technically no harm was done.
So her wishes mean nothing?

Her parents and her husband all knew of her feelings about being kept alive on a ventilator. They don't get a say in this either?

Certainly, she is "dead", and thus, what happens to her remains isn't really a concern. Which makes the outcry at the Somalis who dragged the dead bodies of American soldiers down the streets what? Unnecessary? Were their rights violated? Would be akin to saying that raping a dead woman should not be illegal because after all, her rights are not being violated, right? Because what happens to your remains after you are dead is of no concern.

If her husband or anyone else tried to have sex with her while she is in this state, it would be deemed rape. Why? Because of lack of consent. Yet keeping her alive on a ventilator because they detected a foetal heartbeat, after she had been without oxygen for up to an hour (which means the foetus was also without oxygen, so heaven knows whether it will even survive outside of the womb or whether its heart is only beating because of the machines keeping her heart beating) is acceptable?

She is being kept alive on a machine against her wishes and that of her family's. And why? Because she is pregnant with a foetus no one knows is brain dead or not because all they know is that there is a foetal heartbeat.

Her family and her husband wish to allow her to die with some dignity instead of keeping her heart beating on a ventilator because she may or may not be able to deliver "a baby". The irony of this situation is that at 14 weeks pregnant, she was well within her rights to have an abortion had she wanted one. However, she is not allowed to die because she is pregnant?

This is an abortion issue because if they turn off the machine and allow her to die with some dignity as per her and her family's wishes, then the "child's" heart will stop beating.

Consider that had she been 5 weeks pregnant or even a week pregnant, they are within their legal rights to do this to her. So much so that they have advised the family that if they can, then they will keep going until the foetus reaches full term.

Frankly, I find it appalling that you don't think harm was done and it further reduces women to having no rights and instead, reducing them to the status of an incubator.





Asguard said:
just out of interest who is it that you are most offended for in this? if she is brain dead she ISN'T a person, she is a body and we use brain dead bodies all the time, for example for organ donation. In fact the use of your body after death is the only thing you have no right to determine, organ donation is all down to your next of kin, what you say about it is irreverent and only used to convince your next of kin, same with the disposal of your body, you can determine what happens to all your possessions in your will but what happens to your body is only up to your next of kin. Further more there have been lots of recent examples of dead males being harvested by there wives for sperm or having sperm already extracted used after there death

so in reality i wonder if this is a women's rights issue at all, rather its about what your PARTNER wants to do and what rights your partner has to make decisions for you (or your parents or children if you have no partner)
You can't tell if forcing a woman to remain alive on a ventilator against her wishes and that of her family's because she is pregnant is a woman's issue or not?

Your argument would be valid if she were actually allowed to die.

Alas, she is being kept alive against her wishes and that of her husband and her parents because she is only useful to the State as an incubator. It would be akin to keeping a male alive on a machine without his consent because his wife wanted a fresh lot of sperm to keep having babies. But hey, he's dead, so who cares, right?

I mean hell, why not keep female brain dead patients alive for use as sex toys? You know, when men feel a bit randy, they could possibly pay a fee to just have sex with them. Would that be acceptable? Or maybe keep them alive on machines to work solely as incubators for women who can't have babies. Consent? What's that?
 
So her wishes mean nothing?

Well a dead person's wishes are just that wishes, not commands. Sure desecrating a corpse can be a crime, but not the same as actually raping or mutilating a living person, in fact in the USA for example there is no federal law barring Necrophilia. More so I don't think she had a written wish that specified exactly that if she was pregnant AND brain-dead that she would want the plug pulled. Now if the fetus is fucked-up I personally would most definitely not want it delivered to term, it would most likely live a very short and sad life, but sadly there is no law for that either.

The problem here is one of legality (not to whom "harm" was done) to a situation that so abnormal the law was not devised well for. You seem to believe that her husk of a body has the same rights as a living-thinking person, I'm just stating it does not, exactly what rights it has is completely up to argument though.

Next comes why abortion is legal and how does that legality work in this specific case. For example if murder a right exclusive to women, as long as what they are murdering is the "potential" person inside them, then no technically no one could legal abort that fetus now on account she is no longer alive to execute her right. On the other hand if a fetus is not a person (and thus the right is technically the same no matter the gender), but do people other then the mother have a right to abort a pregnancy because the mother no longer has the ability to decide for her self? Consider the gender inverse cases of Posthumous sperm retrieval (to Posthumous birth), what right's does a brain dead husk have to not sire children? I honestly don't know and many countries technically have no laws for these situations.
 
You can't tell if forcing a woman to remain alive on a ventilator against her wishes and that of her family's because she is pregnant is a woman's issue or not?

Your argument would be valid if she were actually allowed to die.

Alas, she is being kept alive against her wishes and that of her husband and her parents because she is only useful to the State as an incubator. It would be akin to keeping a male alive on a machine without his consent because his wife wanted a fresh lot of sperm to keep having babies. But hey, he's dead, so who cares, right?

I mean hell, why not keep female brain dead patients alive for use as sex toys? You know, when men feel a bit randy, they could possibly pay a fee to just have sex with them. Would that be acceptable? Or maybe keep them alive on machines to work solely as incubators for women who can't have babies. Consent? What's that?

Think you are missing the point that she is dead. If my partner is brain dead I get asked if they can harvest her organs, she is not consulted on this. To put it into perspective I have advanced directives stating that my mum is my medical power of attorney, this is because my partner didn't want to have to make those end of life decisions the way I had instructed her but when it comes to donating organs it drops back to my partner because she is my next of kin and I have no say in the matter (therefore neither does my medical agent). That is the law HERE

Now if your saying that its horrific that the husband can't decide to switch off the machine then I might agree with you but then I suppose its no different from any other circumstance where a partner has no say over the birth of a child, but as far as her rights, shes dead, she has none. For example I could donate my partners body to science and they might ask that she remain on life support for this, that would be MY decision, my partner would have no choice in that
 
Think you are missing the point that she is dead. If my partner is brain dead I get asked if they can harvest her organs, she is not consulted on this. To put it into perspective I have advanced directives stating that my mum is my medical power of attorney, this is because my partner didn't want to have to make those end of life decisions the way I had instructed her but when it comes to donating organs it drops back to my partner because she is my next of kin and I have no say in the matter (therefore neither does my medical agent). That is the law HERE

Now if your saying that its horrific that the husband can't decide to switch off the machine then I might agree with you but then I suppose its no different from any other circumstance where a partner has no say over the birth of a child, but as far as her rights, shes dead, she has none. For example I could donate my partners body to science and they might ask that she remain on life support for this, that would be MY decision, my partner would have no choice in that
You do realise we aren't talking about Australian law, yes? But a specific case where her rights, her husband's and her parents rights are being disregarded because the State demands she be kept alive because she is pregnant..

And you are clearly missing the point in this case.

Even if she had the medical directive, the hospital will still refuse to turn off her life support, because there is an exclusion clause specifically for pregnant women. So women who even fill in the living will, have no say in the matter if they are pregnant at the time they end up brain dead or in a permanent vegetative state. Even if her husband or either of her parents had power of attorney, it would make absolutely no difference as they would still refuse to turn off her life support because she is pregnant and it doesn't matter how far along she is either. As I said, she could have had a living will, her husband or parents with power of attorney and been 2 weeks pregnant and the result would have been the hospital keeping her on life support until they could cut the baby out of her, and her family would not be able to do a single thing about it.

Get it now? You, as a man, would have nothing barring you from having your wishes adhered to if such an event were to happen to you. A woman is not allowed to if she is pregnant. Because if she is pregnant, then in some states in the US, her living will is worth less than the paper it is written on. So a woman cannot plan for such an eventuality if she is of child bearing age as if she is pregnant, then her wishes or her living will will or her spouse or family's wishes never be respected and instead, she will be forced to remain alive until they can cut the baby out of her.

The husband has decided to switch off her life support, as have her parents, because she had made clear to them that she never wanted to remain brain dead on life support. The hospital is refusing to do so because she was 14 weeks pregnant when she collapsed and died and the hospital have said that they will assess her at 24 weeks and they may force her body to incubate until the foetus is full term.. without her consent and without the consent of her husband or her parents. She may be dead, but her rights and her wishes should be respected and she should not be seen solely for the value of her womb, which is essentially what the State is doing by passing such laws.

For example, if you are brain dead, and you have viable sperm, it would be akin to the Government here telling your spouse that she is not allowed to turn off the life support because they plan to harvest your sperm. How would you feel being valued solely for the contents of your balls? How would you feel if the law was written to exclude your rights based solely on your sex? Or if your partner ended up brain dead and was in the early stages of pregnancy at the time and the Government tells you that you are not allowed to have her life support turned off because she is pregnant. Even if she has a living will and even if you have power of attorney. The moment they find out she is pregnant, all of that becomes null and void and they would have the ability to keep her alive until they can cut it out of her. You get no say. Your dead partner's living will would become useless. And they will pump her with as many drugs as they can to keep her alive on the machine in the process. The sole goal becomes the child and this is what the State has done in this case.

As her father said, all his daughter has become, is a "host for the foetus". That is all they State sees her as. To put it into perspective, as a man, you can have a directive, detailing that you do not wish to be kept on life support. You can have a living will and someone with power of attorney. You are free to do this and you can rest assured that your wishes will be adhered to. If you are a woman, in Texas and several other States in the US, you do not have that right.

The restrictive measures were largely adopted in the 1980s, with the spread of laws authorising patients to make advance directives about end-of-life care like living wills and health care proxies, said Katharine Taylor, a lawyer and bioethicist at Drexel University in Philadelphia.

The provisions to protect foetuses, she said, helped ease the qualms of the Roman Catholic Church and others about such directives.

"These laws essentially deny women rights that are given others to direct their health care in advance and determine how they want to die," Taylor said. ‘"The law can make a woman stay alive to gestate the foetus.


 
Get it now? You, as a man, would have nothing barring you from having your wishes adhered to if such an event were to happen to you.

Aaah how could such an event happen to a man??? Men can't get pregnant. The closes thing would be posthumous sperm retrieval and in fact men have questionable to their last will and testament been used to sire children after death, I would say having ones body (or what remains of it) used against the will of some/all family/final wishes/etc for human reproduction is in fact a gender neutral ethical quagmire. The idea that this reveals pro-lifers seeing women as only incubators would only make sense if ALL women were pregnant brain-dead vegetables kept alive by machines in hospitals. If she was alive and mentally sound this would be a standard abortion debate of her rights verse the supposed rights of the fetus, but because she is brain-dead the dynamics are very different on account her husk does not have the rights of a women. In this cause we need to ask what rights does a fetus have PERIOD, and do these rights override the rights we grant a brain-dead husk that once was a women?

A woman is not allowed to if she is pregnant. Because if she is pregnant, then in some states in the US, her living will is worth less than the paper it is written on.

Did she specify in her will to be terminated even if her brain-dead body was pregnant?

For example, if you are brain dead, and you have viable sperm, it would be akin to the Government here telling your spouse that she is not allowed to turn off the life support because they plan to harvest your sperm.

I would go further and ask what right do family members have to take my sperm, they can just claim I wanted to give it? What if in this case the husband said keep her alive, sure she wanted to be unplugged if brain dead, but we want the baby, would you still be upset? Of course sperm retrieval for a man only takes a few minutes and then the man can be unplugged, the women has to go through pregnancy before she can be unplugged.

How would you feel being valued solely for the contents of your balls?

I pretty sure I would not feel anything if I was brain-dead, so my answer would be that I would feel nothing.

How would you feel if the law was written to exclude your rights based solely on your sex?

Again considering Texas does not have any laws against posthumous sperm retrieval, this may in fact be a gender neutral problem. And again what right does one have after they become a brain-dead husk?

As her father said, all his daughter has become, is a "host for the foetus". That is all they State sees her as. To put it into perspective, as a man, you can have a directive, detailing that you do not wish to be kept on life support. You can have a living will and someone with power of attorney. You are free to do this and you can rest assured that your wishes will be adhered to. If you are a woman, in Texas and several other States in the US, you do not have that right.

And this is the problem we come to if we don't decide on the personhood, or lack of, of the fetus and to specific degree. What rights does the fetus have? What rights does a brain dead husk have? Men don't have a womb so this problem is as a matter of biological technicality beyond them, not a legal technicality, just as women don't have sperm and can't be used to sire children long after they are dead.
 
I mean hell, why not keep female brain dead patients alive for use as sex toys?

Probably because most people see a different value in saving the life of a 20 week old fetus and having a sex toy. (Same issue with sex toy vs. organ donor.)
 
Straining credulity
This is no surprise. The medical industry ignores Americans' instructions about our own end-of-life issues routinely.

My mother had a "no tube feeding" order, but they tube-fed her for anyway, knowing that we lived too far away to simply run over to the nursing home and start knocking heads together. Ironically, she died after two weeks, as a result of the tube feeding. She aspirated some food.

In this case it had nothing to do with politics or morality. They just wanted to be able to charge us $200 a day for her "care" for as long as possible.
 
Think you are missing the point that she is dead. If my partner is brain dead I get asked if they can harvest her organs, she is not consulted on this.
How bizarre. In the USA there's a form on the back of our driver's license (the only document that almost every American has with them almost 100% of the time). We check YES or NO to the question about using our organs to save another person's life.

My mother died before this issue was standardized. Her old license had a question on the back, "Which of your organs are you willing to let be transplanted to someone who needs them?" Rather than checking the boxes for heart, eyes, etc., she wrote in longhand, "Take anything you want." :)

I’m surprised the federal courts allow so much legal inconsistency in state law regarding pregnancy clauses in prior directive statutes. Here’s a good overview.
The U.S.A. is a confederation of states and the state governments have considerable latitude in governing their own people. The Supreme Court occasionally steps in to normalize all state laws, but in most cases it's a hodgepodge. Look at the current news about gay marriage or legalization of marijuana. There was a (mercifully brief) time when the state government of Kansas required all school biology textbooks to present divine creation as a respectable scientific option. Many states have such onerous requirements for voter registration that they effectively disenfranchise Afro-Americans, students, the elderly and the poor--the exact contingents that can be reliably counted on to vote for Democratic Party candidates, and the exact contingents who have great difficulty obtaining, say, a driver's license for ID.
 
How bizarre. In the USA there's a form on the back of our driver's license (the only document that almost every American has with them almost 100% of the time). We check YES or NO to the question about using our organs to save another person's life.
Same here in NZ, 'cept its printed in bold letters om the front of your license: 4c. DONOR
 
The U.S.A. is a confederation of states and the state governments have considerable latitude in governing their own people.
A confederation? I thought it was a union.

Won't the south be pleased. Is that fragglerockers true colors showing?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top