Recognition of Israel : a moral failure

[Baron Max]

Wow, SAM, that's really, really close to being a banning offense. How do you get away with it so much around here?

Whats wrong with all the un-Jews!!!!

Most of us are smart enough to pick the winning side in that conflict. The Israelis are simply in the right, and the Pals are simply terrorists and that's recognized by practically everyone on Earth with any degree of fairness and logic.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

they are bribed by Jews and they are not united in one reasoning...thats whats wrong.

Ah too stupid to know better?

So why do they recognise Israel? What do they gain from it?

Most of us are smart enough to pick the winning side in that conflict. The Israelis are simply in the right, and the Pals are simply terrorists and that's recognized by practically everyone on Earth with any degree of fairness and logic.

Baron Max

Anyone the US calls terrorists, the people elect as leaders. So an American ruling of terrorism does not hold any water. Besides, you guys elected Bush. Twice. Your fairness and logic are both highly suspect.

 

[draqon]

Ah too stupid to know better?

So why do they recognise Israel? What do they gain from it?

no, they are being taught the myth of "God's chosen land"....

actually the reason why Israel exists is because there are so many Arabs down the middle East, having someone tame them is for the benefit of UN.

 

[S.A.M.]

no, they are being taught the myth of "God's chosen land"....

actually the reason why Israel exists is because there are so many Arabs down the middle East, having someone tame them is for the benefit of UN.

You mean the puppet dictators don't work? So the reason they recognise Israel is because it conveniently keeps any local country from getting too powerful, considering the ME holds 40% of the world's oil? Might go all socialist and nationalise the resources, maybe?

 

[Baron Max]

So why do they recognise Israel? What do they gain from it?

What could anyone on Earth gain by backing terrorist Pals?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

What could anyone on Earth gain by backing terrorist Pals?

Baron Max

Why should you have to gain anything? Is everyone on earth a business transaction for the Americans?

 

[Baron Max]

Why should you have to gain anything?

You asked the question of backing Israel, I was just turning it around. Now, .....answer the question; Why should anyone on Earth back the Pals?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

It would save you 3 billion a year to the Israelis and remove the threat of "Islamic" terrorism, much of which is based on Israeli propaganda and solidarity with the Palestinians.

 

[TW Scott]

It would save you 3 billion a year to the Israelis and remove the threat of "Islamic" terrorism, much of which is based on Israeli propaganda and solidarity with the Palestinians.

Actually, it would probably cost us more to give the foreign aid to the area. And remember while the Palestinian people were there before it was not actually their land. In fact the Pals have never ruled that lot of land at all. They've lived there and if they could play nice they would live in luxury, but they didn't, they aren't, and they won't. If the pals aren't smart enough to meld inot israeli society despite the no-cost/high benefit outlook, then they deserve whatever happens to them.

 

[CheskiChips]

Screw all (some) of you and this anti-Semitic bullshit that has no backing by any documentation!

Israelis don't control anything but Israel (and if the world had it there way, Israel wouldn't even control that) you shmucks. They don't control the UN...if they did...they wouldn't have received more condemnations by the UN than all of the other nations in the world combined.

How come Christians aren't held to this standard? A Jewish man in congress who doesn't practice Judaism is no different than a Christian man in congress who doesn't practice Christianity.

You only hold the Jew to this insane standard...you say that we're no genetically different than any other person. However...when a Jew who is unconnected to Judaism has any authority anywhere all of the sudden they have some magical genetic pre-disposition to "Jewish thought"...

You can't have it both ways. You're anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, and the Muslim (or Islamic Nations) double standards against the Jews are the preeminent threat to another holocaust of our time.

 

[James R]

Why do people who reject the apartheid system of South Africa and admit that the colonisation of the native Americans and Australians leading to theft of land and resources was wrong albeit not to the point of redress, recognise the state of Israel?

Because Israel was formed by international agreement following World War II. It is an official state. Not recognising it would be stupid.

Does the US accede to the authority of the UN in all things?

Obviously not. What a strange question.

Rather I should say, do you believe the US should accede to the authority of the UN in all things?

The UN doesn't deal with "all things", so my answer is "No."

How do you define the creation of a state by a third party for global Jews on land where Palestinians have been kicked out off and where they are not allowed to re-enter because they are not Jews?

I think the idea was to compensate the Jews for their persecution in World War II.

Where any Jew born anywhere in the world has a right to enter but not Palestinians who have lived there thousands of years?

No Palestinian has lived there for thousands of years, for the simple reason that no Palestinian has lived for thousands of years.

On the other hand, it is recognised by many people that the Palestinians have legitimate claims over some areas of land in Israel. Indeed, they have control over some territory right now.

 

[swarm]

Israel is, and has been for a long time now, a recognized independent country who has several times managed to not only defeat, but embarrass its Arab enemies.

I think six days to trounce a coalition of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria and capture the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights has got to be some kind of record.

And what do the Palestinians do when they finally get their big chance? They prove the only thing they hate worse than Israel is success.

Face it the Israelis are idiots for how the handle things in Palestine and the Palestinians are worse.

 

[S.A.M.]

Because Israel was formed by international agreement following World War II. It is an official state. Not recognising it would be stupid.

Wasn't South Africa "recognised" as a state while it was apartheid? Did you therefore recognise apartheid as legitimate?
.

No Palestinian has lived there for thousands of years, for the simple reason that no Palestinian has lived for thousands of years.

On the other hand, it is recognised by many people that the Palestinians have legitimate claims over some areas of land in Israel..

Could you tell me why Palestinian do not have legitimate claim over all the land that was designated Israel after it was promised to them as a state?

Indeed, they have control over some territory right now

They do? They have an elected government? A military? Freedom of movement?

Do you have similar opinions on apartheid and Aboriginal rights?

That the rights of the natives are irrelevant because none of them were born then? That they should accept their present status quo and forego any demand for sovereignty?

I think the idea was to compensate the Jews for their persecution in World War II.

Was the persecution of the Jews done by Palestinians? Why do they have to compensate the Jews with their land? Why can't those who persecuted them compensate for it with their land?

Do you think the UN has the jurisdiction to take land from the people living there and give it away because some third party wished to do so? Would for example, Australians accept it if the UN decided to give Australia back to the natives to compensate them?

 

[EntropyAlwaysWins]

Indeed, they have control over some territory right now

They do? They have an elected government? A military? Freedom of movement?

*cough* Gaza Strip.
Hamas.
ditto.
within the territory they control.

Really, SAM, now you are just obfuscating the point.

 

[S.A.M.]

Israel is, and has been for a long time now, a recognized independent country who has several times managed to not only defeat, but embarrass its Arab enemies.

Has it? How? By occupying the land that God gave them 4000 years ago, creating a state that bars native populations who are not Jews and replacing native homes with homes for Jews?

I think six days to trounce a coalition of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria and capture the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights has got to be some kind of record.

You mean the pre-emptive war they launched after UN resolution 242 was passed that required their withdrawal from all occupied territories? The one in which President Johnson aided them, so that they were able to keep all occupied territories and gave away the Sinai only because the US forced them to? That one?

And what do the Palestinians do when they finally get their big chance? They prove the only thing they hate worse than Israel is success.

Face it the Israelis are idiots for how the handle things in Palestine and the Palestinians are worse.

Its strange how upside down American perceptions are in the Middle East. The Palestinians get a chance? What chance? Paying for the European Holocaust? Being disenfranchised by secular countries who gave away their land to Jews and now arm and fund the Jews to continue their occupation?

You can't have it both ways. You're anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, and the Muslim (or Islamic Nations) double standards against the Jews are the preeminent threat to another holocaust of our time.

I think Israel will be the reason for the next holocaust. Only this time, no one will care.

 

[S.A.M.]

*cough* Gaza Strip.
Hamas.
ditto.
within the territory they control.

Really, SAM, now you are just obfuscating the point.

Who controls access into and out of Gaza? Who controls air, water and landspace? Can a Palestinian anywhere in the world enter Gaza? Can any Palestinian leave Gaza for elsewhere? Can they elect a government? Have a military to defend themselves against the daily Israeli military incursions? Get food when there is a blockade [as has been the case since June 2006] by Israel?

 

[EntropyAlwaysWins]

Freedom of movement into and out of a country is *not* the same thing as freedom of movement within a country.
The commonly understood meaning of 'freedom of movement' refers to within a country or region.
And before you go on a rant about Israel not allowing people into and out or Gaza, what about the border with Egypt?

 

[S.A.M.]

Freedom of movement into and out of a country is *not* the same thing as freedom of movement within a country.
The commonly understood meaning of 'freedom of movement' refers to within a country or region.
And before you go on a rant about Israel not allowing people into and out or Gaza, what about the border with Egypt?

You do know that Egypt has a treaty with Israel/US not to open the border to Gazans [which they have broken sometimes when Gaza conditions were terrible]?

Freedom within the country? Do you think the Jewish airstrikes on Gaza are a sign of freedom within the country? Do prisoners have freedom within their cage? Do they have the freedom to stop the Jews from coming in with their missiles and tanks without being called terrorists for wanting to do so?

The European Union said international law required the provision of essential services. It called for Israel to reopen crossings for supplies.

Philip Luther, deputy director of Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa program, said: "Israel's latest tightening of its blockade has made an already dire humanitarian situation markedly worse.

"This is nothing short of collective punishment on Gaza's civilian population and it must stop immediately."

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24657551-663,00.html

Is this what you mean by "control"?

 

[EntropyAlwaysWins]

You are putting words in my mouth.
I would not catagorize Gaza as a free society, I have never said this.

And I suppose you think Egypt has a positively stellar history when it comes to keeping treaties and agreements made with Israel?

 

[S.A.M.]

Putting words? You're the one who said:

Freedom of movement into and out of a country is *not* the same thing as freedom of movement within a country.

Do you see freedom of movement within Gaza? Are you a Jew?

Israeli tanks forged into the southern Gaza Strip on Tuesday, drawing mortar fire from Palestinian militants and intensifying violence that has chipped away at a tenuous cease-fire.

The tanks, backed by a bulldozer and military jeep, rumbled about a quarter-mile into the tiny seaside strip, residents and Gaza security officials said. Residents said they leveled lands along the border east of the city of Rafah. It was the first ground action in a week.

On Tuesday, a local anti-blockade activist, Amjad Shawwa, said Israeli seamen boarded a Palestinian fishing boat and arrested one of Gaza's foreign supporters and five Palestinian fishermen. Shawwa identified the foreigner as Andrew Muncie of Scotland.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD94H9VG00

I don't even understand why the Egyptians recognise the Jewish state. Probably for money. Its shameful of them to have done that to the Palestinians. Recognise their occupiers and sign a treaty with them to keep the natives closed in. I think its an inhumane treaty and the Egyptians should not honour it, especially now with Israel blocking food and medical access. What do you think?

Gazans seeking food aid walked away empty-handed from locked United Nations distribution centers Saturday after a strict Israeli border closure depleted U.N. food reserves.

Israel sealed Gaza's borders nearly two weeks ago as part of a new round of fighting with Gaza's Hamas rulers. Hamas rocket fire on Israeli border towns and Israeli air strikes on Gaza militants have eroded a truce that had largely held for five months.

In the Shati refugee camp near Gaza City, hundreds of people walked away empty-handed from a U.N. food distribution center Saturday. A note taped to the center's blue gate said handouts were put off until Dec. 13 "because of a lack of food to distribute."

In all, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency distributes food to some 750,000 Gazans, or nearly half the territory's population. The needy get a new parcel of rice, flour, sugar and oil every three months. On Saturday, some 20,000 Gazans were to pick up food supplies, U.N. aid officials said.

Itaf Yazji arrived at the Shati distribution center Saturday, only to find it locked.

"What shall we eat now?" said the 54-year-old mother of five, who also cares for a disabled relative. Yazji said she had been waiting anxiously to pick up food because her family ran out of rice and flour.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD94FJGO01