Funnily enough, the women who can and do avoid rape go on to do many things. Making excuses for rapists doesn't appear to be one of them however .....Still making excuses for rapists because you think women can and should avoid rape and prevent themselves from being raped..
just applying Tiassa's standard to his own posts.And still offering nothing of substance except a whine about word counts..
He also seems to display a strong distaste for sloughing through waffle.
I am simply holding him to his preferred standard
I find it absurd that you expect the complete suspension of any standards of prevention given that society as a whole is such a long, long, long way away from being socialized around that value.The solution was presented.
Start setting the expectation that men should not rape instead of women can prevent being raped and avoid being raped.
Start educating boys and girls that they should not rape. Start respecting the word 'no'. That no really does mean no. That they need to learn to stop when told no. That could be a start. But you find the very notion of educating men (and women) in society about not raping to be absurd.
As I said, this is more about victim professionalism rather than victim prevention.The very moment that there is an expectation that a woman must somehow prevent rape, or do things to prevent being raped, then it becomes an excuse for the rapist. Defense lawyers then instantly say 'well, she should have done more to stop it'... 'Is it really rape if she did not go out of her way to avoid it or prevent it?'..
So what is your advice to someone who is in a situation or approaching a situation where they anticipate they might get raped?The victim's actions are then judged and if she somehow failed to prevent being raped, then she is judged as being somehow complicit.
This is happening now LG. It is attitudes such as yours which saw Meagher judged by so many and somehow deemed complicit in her own rape and murder.
Once again : Its not "somehow".So because men covet women's bodies and want to abuse them and control them, women must somehow (-snip-)
Its about looking at the criteria a perpetrator looks for in an "easy victim", recognizing their modus operandi, and translating that data into a preventative model
the more informed one is on the data of the nature of the offender, the more resources one will have to make a better decision ... much like any other victim orientated crime you care to mentionor other try to figure out who those men are around her and amongst complete strangers and come up with plans to avoid being raped by such individuals?
Do you want me to start counting how many times you say this again?Your practical advice is obscene because it fails to deal with the very simple fact that a woman is more likely to be raped by a man she knows or is intimate with (ie spouse, partner, boyfriend) than a complete stranger.
Didn't I say I already knew that?
Didn't I say that this scenario proves to be the most challenging and in some cases impossible to prevent or prepare for?
Didn't I say that all this in no way reduces all and any preventative programs? (If you look at the story link I gave at the very start of this post, you can see that Louise Nicholas not only prevented an attempted rape by a known person, but has since gone to strongly recommend and teach others how to do it)
On the contrary, its you who is saying that its unacceptable to analyze issues of victim prevention, while it is only acceptable to educate men. I never proposed such an idiotic dichotomy. I have reiterated time and time again that these things work in tandem (as exemplified by any victim orientated crime you care to mention) . I did say however that given the current state of affairs, examining issues of prevention is far more practical and self-empowering since it places one in a position to actually deal with the problem and is typical of the initiative any other individual would take for any other victim orientated crime.What you advocate is a life of paranoia and fear for women to prevent rape and to avoid being raped and you actually believe this is acceptable and more acceptable than educating boys and men that rape is wrong? Really?
Now compare this to what you are offering ....... nothing except what legal channels to take after you get assaulted .... which hardly sounds like a fabulous negotiation of the prospect of fear ....
As things stand at the moment, I think its absurd if you expect such education attempts to be of such grand proportion that one can rely on them for protection atthe complete nullification of any preventative measures ... and I think it borders on insanity when you take it a step further and deem all such preventative measures steal away from the potency of engineering this societal shift.What I am talking about is a societal shift in how women are viewed and judged, and you think it is absurd to educate men and boys that women deserve to be respected and not raped...
And quite frankly, as a aside point, I think the chances of this change ever being successfully engineered are close to zero since the issue of attitudes of men towards women are seated within the broader contexts of how individuals see themselves and believe the world exists in relation to them .... which are not only problems of such mammoth proportions but also feeding off a state of mind that contemporary existence makes more rigid at practically every moment.
IOW conflict of the sexual front is just the tip of a big ugly iceberg that collectively we don't the guts to deal with ... but anyway, thats just a side point
Totally incorrect.You can't prevent being raped.
Not only have women prevented themselves from getting raped (even by known persons) they have also taught other women who have in turn prevented themselves from getting reaped (some of which were also known persons too) . And not only that, they seem quite healthy and stable without having to live or advocate some sort of man-induced paranoia which seems to be the only solution you can concede .
You tell me?How many times can this be said?
Once again, the main benefit of analyzing the modus operandi of a perpetrator is that one can recognize these things.You cannot prevent something that you don't know will happen or not and with whom. If women are to live normal lives, then they can't prevent what they cannot even foresee at all. You expect women to somehow know and expect they will be raped, so they should just 'be prepared'. It's obscene.
The only ones who can't prevent are the one's who follow your advice of thinking there is no value in analyzing all this and developing a prevention strategy.
Speaking of obscene...
And again, your offensive comparison to car theft does not deal with the simple fact that the majority of rapes occur in the woman's home, the rapist being someone she knows and is more than likely intimate with. Tell me, how would you avoid being raped by your husband? Keep a lock on the door? How do you protect yourself against your husband when it comes to rape? View him constantly as a potential rapist? Live in fear that one day or night, he might just not respect you when you say 'no, not tonight'?
maybe instead of counting the number of times you fall back on this I will just copy paste this:
Do you want me to start counting how many times you say this again? (2nd time since we started afresh)
Didn't I say I already knew that?
Didn't I say that this scenario proves to be the most challenging and in some cases impossible to prevent or prepare for?
Didn't I say that all this in no way reduces all and any preventative programs? (If you look at the story link I gave at the very start of this post, you can see that Louise Nicholas not only prevented an attempted rape by a known person, but has since gone to strongly recommend and teach others how to do it)
Tell that to a woman who has successfully applied a prevention strategy against a rapist.Do you see why your rape prevention spiel is obscene and impractical?
I dare you.
Another dud point.Rapists don't "commonly go to jail".
And the reason so few women report being sexually assaulted and raped is varied, but one of the main reasons is guilt and if you have a situation where women are somehow expected to prevent their own rape, they feel guilt and shame when they are raped. Do you understand now why a culture of rape prevention and avoidance leads to less rape convictions and less reports of rapes and why women are then deemed to share the guilt in their own rapes?
Anyone who teaches rape prevention strategy, far from encouraging victims not to report it to the police, are linked up with advocacy groups to provide the necessary support to do just that (usually participants receive heaps of legal and health brochures about what to do in a worst case scenario). Its actually women who don't have adequate prevention strategies (ie women who follow your advice) who tend not to report it
noThat is the point, LG, which 'such persons'?
actually the point was
If active awareness of risk factors for an incident render it more viable/common/acceptable or whatever, then clearly whatever education hopes you have ambitions for are doomed to fail.
IOW if you apply the general principles you are advocating to the broader picture of safety, crime and or injury, you can see how totally absurd you are sounding
If the more people know about the nature of a problem, the greater it gets, HOW THE HELL DO YOU PROPOSE TO EDUCATE ANYONE ?
Just the first thing that turned up on googleHow do you know who is a rapist and who may rape and who is not?
I suggest you attend one of the seminars.A woman is married to the man of her dreams who treats her like a princess. One night, she says no and he rapes her. What precautions could she have taken?
What about a girl who trusts her father and one day he rapes her? What precautions could she have taken?
How could they have avoided their own rapes?
They have suggestions for all sorts of rapists and scenarios, including the one's you just offered.
Once again, here we go.Because a rapist is more likely to be the man you married or happen to be involved with or know.
How do you stop or prevent them from raping you?
The thing with rape is that women do not know and cannot tell who is likely to rape them. A person walking down a street with a coat hanger looking into cars is more than likely to be looking for a car to steal.
A man who is charming, polite, respectful to his wife <<< How is she supposed to know he is a rapist or may rape her?
Do you understand now how and why prevention would amount to women living in fear and distrust of every person around her?
Do you want me to start counting how many times you say this again? (3rd time, in case you are counting ...)
Didn't I say I already knew that?
Didn't I say that this scenario proves to be the most challenging and in some cases impossible to prevent or prepare for?
Didn't I say that all this in no way reduces all and any preventative programs? (If you look at the story link I gave at the very start of this post, you can see that Louise Nicholas not only prevented an attempted rape by a known person, but has since gone to strongly recommend and teach others how to do it)
and I will also repeat this again since what you just posed above in no way forms a response to it :
Your car has value, your children have value, your house has value, your health has value, your job has value, your country has value, your bicycle has value, your pets have value - and all of these people, associates and assets are accompanied by steps individuals take to protect them from harm/misappropriation by third parties ontop of whatever legal penalties an individual accrues from encroaching on the said persons lifestyle.
Yet for some reason when the topic of rape comes up you declare this straight forward forumula of criminology not only fails to work in tandem, but is in fact diametrically opposed. .
You strongly advocate that they dismiss all such precautions because a rapist is bad and its obviously their responsibility not to rape you.
My question is this - if a person is intent to treat you or your property maliciously, why on earth would you rest your well being on their capacity to act responsibly?
IOW the very moment a person engages in a criminal act against you is the moment they have no or a diminished regard for your well being.
Rather than copy/paste it for the fourth time I will ask you a question.Tell me something..
How do you take precautions against your husband raping you one day, out of the blue?
How do you take precautions to your husband refusing to take 'no' for an answer?
Why do you take the most challenging scenario as a prototype for dismissing all preventative measures?
This isn't another opportunity for you to explain what is the most common scenario fro rape (which would simply be another opportunity for me to copy/paste the Louise Nicholas paragraph).
This is an opportunity for you to explain why one should reject all preventative strategies based on one type of challenging scenario.
Hence my suggestion :But when you start expecting women to prevent being raped or avoid rape, then it does become an excuse for the criminal because the response is 'well if she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have been there'.. It gives him an out because she did not take the supposed precautions to avoid being raped by him.
It seems to me that your real gripe is the having stiffer legislation or more severe prosecution of rapists ( I assume that's what you mean by making them more "responsible"). Its as if you believe the act of an individual taking precautions somehow siphons away from the capacity of society to engineer the consequences you want on the criminal element that performs the act.
I can't understand why you think this.
The news articles you present seem to confirm you are more about honing in the legal network for persecution as opposed to doing away with prevention in toto ... just in brief
Notice how he was admonished.You are naive if you believe this is not already happening:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/14/us-judge-victims-body-prevent-rape
Suggestion is that things were amiss because she was rendered submissive by the threat of violence
even the judge admitted he was stupid
IOW its clearly an inappropriate standard for law and he couldn't step back fast enough once he spoke the nonsense
not sure why you included this.
Maybe you feel he got off lightly ... which again is another push for a higher legal standard etc
what a mess!
They were both drunk and she sexually reciprocated with him.
Even in your wildest dreams I'm pretty sure that if the guy had been educated "no means no" it wouldn't have helped her ... which of course just leaves your ambitions on how it should have turned out legally
The irony is one could receive information like that in a rape prevention strategy (IOW information about the role drugs play in becoming a victim). The difference is that it becomes empowering. IOW giving the right information in the wrong situation, at the wrong time from the wrong person is wrong.
But at the same time, if behavior shapes the persona of an ideal victim for a rapist, it doesn't make sense to try and live a life blissfully unaware of that (granted that the format of receiving that information warrants attention - IOW yes, it has an adverse effect coming from the mouth of a judge to a person who was assaulted during a court case against the culprit.)I could go on..
That is just the tip of the ice-berg in what happens when women are expected to behave a certain way, dress a certain way, not go to places to avoid being raped.
If you keep saying this, I will keep saying this :An easy target is more likely to be the woman he marries or his girlfriend..
Do you want me to start counting how many times you say this again?
Didn't I say I already knew that?
Didn't I say that this scenario proves to be the most challenging and in some cases impossible to prevent or prepare for?
Didn't I say that all this in no way reduces all and any preventative programs? (If you look at the story link I gave at the very start of this post, you can see that Louise Nicholas not only prevented an attempted rape by a known person, but has since gone to strongly recommend and teach others how to do it)
detailed who is the type of person most likely not to report it and hence contribute to their low persecution rateAgain, rapists usually don't go to jail.. I detailed why above.
Once again, try telling that to the face of a woman who runs seminars on rape prevention based on her experience as a rape survivor (with the same self conceited, sneering, I -know-better-than-you, smug attitude of course - if you said this in an appreciative manner it would be entirely different) .So good work in saying this is acceptable because you think women should be preventing their own rape and avoiding it.
I dare you (she will probably judo throw you across the room).
In short, you suffer from a poor fund of knowledge and insist on bringing others down to your unsatisfactory level of performance.In short, you are just lazy, have issues with reading complex posts, and have nothing to offer which is of any substance on this issue so you rather just whine about the word count.