Rape and the "Civilized" World

[lightgigantic]

It would be interesting to listen to some of the posters here explain to her how she is a "rape apologist" and describe to her how she is oppressing women with her offensive beliefs. And of course how she is making excuses for rapists.

I suggested that it might involve them getting judo flipped across the room.

 

[iceaura]

'Speaking as somebody who has been a victim, to learn these strategies to not to be a victim again – it's vital for every single woman to equip themselves with these skills,' the former New Zealander of the Year explains.

It would be interesting to listen to some of the posters here explain to her how she is a "rape apologist" and describe to her how she is oppressing women with her offensive beliefs. And of course how she is making excuses for rapists.

She is recommending that women - at some time in their lives and at their own convenience - attend a 150 minute seminar.

And as for your complaint about being lumped in with the likes of lightgigantic - you whiffed on yet another opportunity to separate yourself from dishonest and misogynistic bullshit from that source. As noted: you're on that team. Review the posting of your buddies there - anything strike you as mayeb a little, how is it put, off?

 

[wynn]

How so? You appear to agree with me in every respect - look at this:

You are limiting those precautionary measures to things such as wearing reflective items etc.

But you are leaving out one very simple, very important thing: being mindful of where one puts one's foot.

One can wear a helmet, a special reflective vest, walk in a group - and it will help nothing if one doesn't keep one's eyes open and watch one's step.

And that general principle is satisfied for pedestrians, one's behavior meets all expectations and advocated precautions, without one's continually maintaining awareness and adopting obvious precautions against all visible risk.

No. One has to "continually maintain awareness and adopt obvious precautions against all visible risk". Unless you think it's okay to step into dog poo or uncovered manholes.

Had you been able to come up with similar limits on your advocated rape precautions, you would have been able to at least begin dealing with the major issues of this thread.

It's the case that you don't seem to like those precautions, or can't relate to them. LG has already posted links on how to recognize potentially abusive behavior in others.

 

[lightgigantic]

She is recommending that women - at some time in their lives and at their own convenience - attend a 150 minute seminar.

can't fathom why they would want to go though - maybe no one informed that there is no point in attending these things?
:shrug:

And as for your complaint about being lumped in with the likes of lightgigantic - you whiffed on yet another opportunity to separate yourself from dishonest and misogynistic bullshit from that source. As noted: you're on that team. Review the posting of your buddies there - anything strike you as mayeb a little, how is it put, off?

I guess you find it easier to combat stereotypes than individuals.
Btw if you are after clues about recognizing potentially abusive people, you are ticking quite a few boxes atm ...
:shrug:

 

[wynn]

*Guffaw*

Are you of the belief that women know who rapists are?

If they are not determined to live with their heads in the clouds of naivete, they can recognize signs of danger early on.

So when he is discussing OH&S principles and hazardous behaviour that leads to rape, he is talking about the rapist?

It's okay Wynn. You can stop making excuses for him now.

That kind of abuse really doesn't further the discussion.

Because he worded it to mean the victim.

You know, when one takes it into account along with his constant obsession of women in dark train stations at 1am in red light districts attracting rapists..

More of your imagination.

Are you suggesting that women knowingly or become involved with men they know will rape them one day? That women can somehow pick out their rapists before they are raped?

Do you have a sense that tells you about a particular person "Hey, this man/woman could mean trouble for me sooner or later" -?

See, this could be said after the rape has occurred. To claim that women should somehow be realistic about something that hasn't even occurred yet in so far as she does not believe such a thing could happen to her with him, it's a bit of a stretch to say that she should be "realistic about the relationship".

Unless of course women are to treat all men as if they are potential rapists, your solution is pretty.. well.. silly.

What is much more than silly is your insistence in romantic notions of naivete and ignorance.

 

[wynn]

Working in the system, I can't fathom why you can't come to grips with this. If you can identify a criminal for persecution (a process in itself that is fluid, subject to societal change etc etc), what the hell is the problem is identifying one for prevention?
Why must one wait to become a victim in order to begin your course of action (aside from the obvious that they greatly reduce their chances of becoming a client for a lawyer)?

Working with animals, I've noticed something peculiar: some people seem to entirely lack the ability to recognize the mood of an animal and to assess whether it is safe to approach an animal or how. Like here. Or they do recognize these things, but don't care, and continue with their activity - and then act surprised if the animal bites or scratches them.
And some people appear to have that lack about people as well.

 

[iceaura]

You are limiting those precautionary measures to things such as wearing reflective items etc.

No. Those were examples, not limits. Reread the post.

And that general principle is satisfied for pedestrians, one's behavior meets all expectations and advocated precautions, without one's continually maintaining awareness and adopting obvious precautions against all visible risk.

No. One has to "continually maintain awareness and adopt obvious precautions against all visible risk".

You just finished, one sentence previous, acknowledging that wearing helmets and maintaining barriers and tracking all traffic and putting reflective tape on one's clothing are not things one "has to" do - even though they are obvious remedies for obvious risks. (You yourself mentioned bricks dropping on heads).

So as you say: there are limits to the advocacy of awareness and precaution for pedestrians. Pedestrians who do not bother with awareness or precautions beyond those limits are not described as irresponsible, lacking in adulthood, etc. Examples are easily come by, and universally acknowledged as you do here.

And advocating for precautions and awareness beyond those limits, expecting such as a condition of being responsible, would be advocating for oppression, intrusion, imposition.

It's the case that you don't seem to like those precautions, or can't relate to them. LG has already posted links on how to recognize potentially abusive behavior in others.

And LG insists on pretending that that answers the question he was asked. That is partly because he has no answer he is willing to admit to, and partly because LG never answers questions honestly or deals in good faith with such matters.

btw: in passing, we note that when not overtly and specifically denying that advocacy of precaution and awareness is in some situations advocacy of oppression (burkhas in Saudi Arabia), the language very quickly becomes not free recommendation but expectation, insistence, even demand, with implied threat: "One has to "continually maintain awareness and adopt obvious precautions against all visible risk".

 

[lightgigantic]

And LG insists on pretending that that answers the question he was asked. That is partly because he has no answer he is willing to admit to, and partly because LG never answers questions honestly or deals in good faith with such matters.

For your enlightenment ...


'Speaking as somebody who has been a victim, to learn these strategies to not to be a victim again – it's vital for every single woman to equip themselves with these skills,' the former New Zealander of the Year explains.

Although there is no physical component to the two-and-half hour Auckland-based seminar, it aims to enlighten participants on how to better identify and avoid potential violence.

They'll learn to pinpoint manipulation strategies used against women, examine the stages of self-defence, and understand the psychology of an attacker and how they choose their targets.

:shrug:

If you invested even a quarter of the energy you have in maintaining a focus that goes no further than your nose, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

:shrug:

 

[iceaura]

For your enlightenment ...

That's dishonest. When you post like that, you are lying.

Now: where's the answer to the question at issue, from me and several others, that is central to you efforts here?

 

[lightgigantic]

That's dishonest. When you post like that, you are lying.

Now: where's the answer to the question at issue, from me and several others, that is central to you efforts here?

What part of the answer is evading you?
Does it require a different font?
What on earth makes you think this subject matter (that she more than likely teaches) has nothing to do with rape prevention?

This unique, and valuable information will empower you with everything you need to stay safe including:

Heightened avoidance and awareness skills – Without having to live in constant fear or worry you will be able to recognise the signs of danger at their earliest point so that you can take immediate action.

Increased confidence - By developing empowering belief systems around your ability to protect yourself and your loved ones. With the information in this book, you will KNOW that you can stay safe!

Understanding the behavioural and psychological aspects to violence - Giving you enormous advantage over a potential attacker.

How to recognise the 'Survival Signs' - Strategies that males use against females to persuade and lure them into dangerous situations. You will recognise these in almost every story of predatory assault you ever hear. Stay one step ahead by knowing what they are!

Defusion and de-escalation strategies – Know how to avoid escalating a dangerous situation to enable you to defuse it or 'set your attacker up' to allow for your escape!

Highly effective physical protection strategies – Easily learnt strategies that work and can be recalled under pressure and stress in any environment regardless of physical size or strength.

Realistic defensive strategies - For dealing with some of the most common situations women face. Common sense approaches developed from analysis of thousands of real situations.




Or is it simply a case that you can't conceive how the idea about a "potential rapist" fits into all this?

:shrug:

 

[Bells]

If they are not determined to live with their heads in the clouds of naivete, they can recognize signs of danger early on.

You have never met a victim of sexual abuse or rape, have you?

Do you even associate with actual people? Because this would have to be one of the dumbest things you've come out with.

That kind of abuse really doesn't further the discussion.

What kind of abuse? Coming from you, that is hilarious.

More of your imagination.

Right..

And once again, you demonstrate that your intelligence would match those of a pea.

Do you have a sense that tells you about a particular person "Hey, this man/woman could mean trouble for me sooner or later" -?

Are you asking if women's 'spider senses are tingling'?

Really?

Really?

We are resorting to 6th sense now for rape prevention?

What is much more than silly is your insistence in romantic notions of naivete and ignorance.

Says she who thinks that women should just use their spider senses to prevent being raped...

 

[wynn]

You have never met a victim of sexual abuse or rape, have you?

Do you even associate with actual people? Because this would have to be one of the dumbest things you've come out with.

What kind of abuse? Coming from you, that is hilarious.

Right..

And once again, you demonstrate that your intelligence would match those of a pea.

Are you asking if women's 'spider senses are tingling'?

Really?

Really?

We are resorting to 6th sense now for rape prevention?

Says she who thinks that women should just use their spider senses to prevent being raped...

It looks like you're just pissed off because deep down, you actually know damn well what I'm talking about and you know that it works.

 

[wynn]

btw: in passing, we note that when not overtly and specifically denying that advocacy of precaution and awareness is in some situations advocacy of oppression (burkhas in Saudi Arabia), the language very quickly becomes not free recommendation but expectation, insistence, even demand, with implied threat: "One has to "continually maintain awareness and adopt obvious precautions against all visible risk".

So what is this really about?
Reputation?
A person's image in the eyes of others?

 

[Bells]

It looks like you're just pissed off because deep down, you actually know damn well what I'm talking about and you know that it works.

Spidey senses?

No Wynn..

Because your belief that women somehow 'just know' is silly and your post's amount to nothing more than dishonest trolling. Either that or you actually have no clue and have never interacted with people in your life.

 

[parmalee]

For your enlightenment ...


'Speaking as somebody who has been a victim, to learn these strategies to not to be a victim again – it's vital for every single woman to equip themselves with these skills,' the former New Zealander of the Year explains.

Although there is no physical component to the two-and-half hour Auckland-based seminar, it aims to enlighten participants on how to better identify and avoid potential violence.

They'll learn to pinpoint manipulation strategies used against women, examine the stages of self-defence, and understand the psychology of an attacker and how they choose their targets.

Let me guess?
She's another fucking stupid misogynist dressing up preventative models as nothing but a ruse for a nefarious moral agenda in your books?

:shrug:

Ummmm... Right...

Remember this? ('Cuz, you know, YOU actually responded to it, so presumably you read it.)

me

I can accept that other posters here are, in fact, well-intentioned--albeit ridiculously misinformed (what the fuck does walking about naked, or wearing a shirt that says "do me," have to do with the likelihood that one will be raped?) and inexplicably unawares as to the socio-cultural implications of their "prevention strategies"; but lightgigantic, with his "train station in a red light district at midnight" scenarios, clearly has motivations entirely unrelated to "empowering women" and preventing rape--is it merely a coincidence that his strategies parallel certain moralistic convictions about how persons (rather, women in particular) "ought" to behave?

And later, as your request, I clarified something--and again, you responded, so presumably you read it:

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
So there is data surrounding the nature of being a victim of rape. This data forms a statistical body. Individuals take these statistical conclusions and develop preventative strategies aimed at protecting individuals. Individuals attend such seminars and learn these strategies. Some of the said individuals have the opportunity to implement such strategies and protect themselves.

NOW all this is completely bogus because Parmalee says all such involved people are stupid, simply dishonest, rotten to the core on account of prevalence and gravity ( ).

...
Right, that's precisely what I said.

But seriously: no, it's not at all what I said.

I said that YOU are dishonest and rotten to the core, but given your "comprehension" of my posts, as well as those of others, I am now saying that YOU are also a complete fucking idiot.

Get it? Or do I need to say it a few more times, in language more appropriate to your level of understanding?

But thank you for bringing this up again, as I might have to revise that a little:

I suppose it's possible that you are NOT dishonest, and are in fact really just profoundly fucking stupid and suffering from short-term memory problems.

But do note, I said "might." I'm honestly unsure here. Regardless, I do not feel especially comfortable continuing this delightful conversation with you--as you cannot keep straight something I said like five fucking minutes ago, I can confidently say that there is definitely "something" going on with you, I'm just not all that sure as to what it is. But it's unsettling. (Or creepy. Or weird. Or possibly even, just sad.)

 

[parmalee]

For your enlightenment ...


'Speaking as somebody who has been a victim, to learn these strategies to not to be a victim again – it's vital for every single woman to equip themselves with these skills,' the former New Zealander of the Year explains.

Although there is no physical component to the two-and-half hour Auckland-based seminar, it aims to enlighten participants on how to better identify and avoid potential violence.

They'll learn to pinpoint manipulation strategies used against women, examine the stages of self-defence, and understand the psychology of an attacker and how they choose their targets.

:shrug:

If you invested even a quarter of the energy you have in maintaining a focus that goes no further than your nose, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

:shrug:

OK, did you honestly not notice that iceaura had obviously already read that, being as he QUOTED IT in post #242?

Seriously, get some help.


Though I do understand this continual shrugging of yours now.

Of course, I would not be at all surprised if you've also got "strategies" for children, on how to avoid being beaten or molested by family, relatives, or close acquaintances.

 

[Bells]

Once again, we can only assume you refused to read anything

*Snip*

Blah blah blah..

Oh I read your articles and your links.

You still didn't answer the question though. You are still lying and misrepresenting everyone who disagrees with you...

And you are still placing the onus on the woman to not be raped.

So frankly, you are nothing but a waste of space and oxygen.

":shrug:"

So why should I bother reading and responding to the rest of your post when it is long, stupid and wrong?

You can't even answer some very simple questions without trying to deflect your answer with some links that does not answer the questions asked of you.

How many pages has it been now? And you have the nerve to comment on my apparently refusing to read anything?

 

[wellwisher]

We live in a culture where more and more females look like the hookers of old. This dress is an inducement to sex appeal and therefore can help to create its own reality. If a gal went to a party, without make-up and without other sex appeal illusions guys will not notice her as much allowing her to stay more under the radar.

As an analogy, say the males decide the new fashion will have the males carrying visible guns as part of their look. The association of the gun with violence, will carry over and make all the males appear more threatening, even if the guy is a nice guy. People will assume this outward expression has something to do with want is inside. If the guy gets sick of women avoiding and being afraid of him, he can complain that it is up to them to change or he can put the gun away. If gal looked plain, she gets less attention; good and bad.

Has their even been a study of rape as a function of pretty or ugly? The point is whether look enhancement pushes one in the wrong direction and increase the risk of rape.

 

[Tiassa]

Reality vs. Invisibility

We live in a culture where more and more females look like the hookers of old. This dress is an inducement to sex appeal and therefore can help to create its own reality. If a gal went to a party, without make-up and without other sex appeal illusions guys will not notice her as much allowing her to stay more under the radar.

This may be one of the greatest quotes ever. Every sentence justifies misogyny. To wit:

As an analogy, say the males decide the new fashion will have the males carrying visible guns as part of their look. The association of the gun with violence, will carry over and make all the males appear more threatening, even if the guy is a nice guy. People will assume this outward expression has something to do with want is inside. If the guy gets sick of women avoiding and being afraid of him, he can complain that it is up to them to change or he can put the gun away. If gal looked plain, she gets less attention; good and bad.

Good and bad. Exactly. Now, bear in mind the hostility men often show women who "look plain". And then apply your advice to the workplace.

"Jane's sex has nothing to do with why she didn't get the promotion. Look at her. She keeps herself plain, tries not to be noticed. She may be just as qualified as John, who got the promotion, but she lacked the intangibles. John makes conscious efforts to keep himself looking not just presentable but welcome and inviting, and instead of trying to not be noticed, his dynamic personality can be very influential and persuasive. He just had better potential for doing the job well."​

One of the outcomes you've managed is that you're using the rape phenomenon as an excuse to hamstring women in the workplace.

That's actually somewhat remarkable.

Has their even been a study of rape as a function of pretty or ugly? The point is whether look enhancement pushes one in the wrong direction and increase the risk of rape.

There comes a point at which, even if we generously grant prevention theory some useful degree of credibility, that is irrelevant.

What look enhancement? The "slut" in a bikini ... at the beach? The professional woman in a well-tailored business suit and fine shoes? The innocent, sheltered "good girl" who wouldn't be seen in public wearing slutty clothes?

You have to be able to pick the data out from a broad range of studies over the course of decades, but the general phrasing of the point is that a victim's attire has somewhere between very little and nothing at all to do with their rape. The best such a consideration can do for prevention is ... er ... um ... well, nothing.

If you break up the rapes into attire or appearance classifications, it does not follow that eliminating a classification will reduce the number of rapes that occur, proportionately or otherwise. To get rid of the slut in a bikini at the beach appearance classification, for instance, will not reduce the number of rapes.

Rape criteria are about access and opportunity. If we tried to get rid of every appearance classification that your plain-gal theory might cover ... well, that's sort of the point. Women, by that approach, would need to be invisible.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Women, by that approach, would need to be invisible.

Covered in loose fabric head to toe with only a slit for vision, always accompanied by a male relative.

It's been done.