So tell me LG.
How do you identify rapists or potential rapists?
Once again, we can only assume you refused to read anything
What behaviour do men exhibit around you that would make you wary that they may be your potential rapist.
ditto above
Having spoken to many of such women, there is always a constant theme.. 'I never thought he would do something like this to me'.
Strangely enough, this point also crops up at the seminars, information sites I previously mentioned (even ones that talk about auto-theft, heart attack or pretty much anything else for that matter ... in fact here it is in a
recent newstory :
(The judge) said dangerous driving was a crime often committed by otherwise law-abiding people who "never think it will happen to them".) .
However unlike you, they don't play it to the tune of "see, there is nothing one can do"
You see, your version of rape prevention puts the onus on the woman to not only identify her potential rapist, but to then act in a certain way to prevent being raped.
and your onus doesn't.
So in one scenario you equip individuals with information to provide a broad base for hazard management and in another, you don't.
Which one do you think is more empowering?
You keep harping on about self defense seminars for rape survivors. I have attended hundreds and spoken at hundreds of them.
Somehow I doubt that very much.
Earlier I made the distinction between these sort of OH&S seminars and the victim advocacy groups (part of which are already incorporated in the OH&S seminars btw) that you seem to be exclusively familiar with
And the main underlying theme at such seminars is to educate women that rape is never their fault and there is nothing they could have done to have stopped what happened to them. The reason being is that rape survivors have gone through such trauma and usually blame themselves for what they should never blame themselves for. What we then tell these women is that they can and should take self defense classes not to identify their rapists or to prevent their rapists, but to help them survive and stay alive. And we keep re-iterating that if they are ever raped, that there is nothing that they could have done and the blame lays solely with the rapist.
Once again, its only in your imagination that you play these OH&S type seminars as absolutely suggesting that the victim get blamed (so much so that you
automatically accuse such persons as making excuses for rapists)
IOW the simple notion that you can't seem to filter through your head is that one can
simultaneously advocate a prevention model
and a victim advocacy program.
And of course the reason that one can do this is because
both fields,
namely prevention models and victim advocacy, can be honed
independently from each other.
Do you seriously think that women, having been rape survivors, when they facilitate such information sessions, actually suggest that the rapist is not to blame?
Do you understand the difference now and why your advocating rape prevention is so offensive? At all?
Do you now understand how that there is no automatic mutual exclusiveness between victim prevention and victim advocacy models?.
Do you understand that all this ranting about "making excuses for rapists" is simply a consequence of a dichotomy that exists only in your imagination?
I dare you to tell a rape survivor that she could have prevented her own rape.
Try going to one of these sort of seminars and you will see that they not only tell it, they teach it.
I linked you photos of 6 men earlier and asked you to tell me which one was the rapist. You can't answer it because you simply do not know. So when you use sentences like "what the hell is the problem is identifying one for prevention?", you are carrying on as if women should know how to identify their potential rapists.
and if you go back to my response, you can see why we automatically disregard that from the onset.
Because you offer things like this, it just leads to the conclusion that you really don't know much about these models
No one has said that a woman should wait to become a victim.
well if you have an alternative to this default option, now is the time to say it.
What everyone except rape apologists like you and your ilk have been saying is that your rape prevention prattle places the onus on the woman
Once again, the real world (distinct from "bell's imagination") shows numerous examples of advocacy and prevention working in tandem. If you have a clear argument for thinking otherwise or a working model to cite, we are yet to hear it.
to not be raped by saying that women can somehow prevent being raped.
Once again : Its not "somehow".
Its about looking at the criteria a perpetrator looks for in an "easy victim", recognizing their modus operandi, and translating that data into a preventative model.
That does not happen in the real world
I'm afraid it does.
All you can offer are concepts that have no precedent in the real world.
IOW, to state very clearly - THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE DICHOTOMY BETWEEN PREVENTATIVE AND ADVOCACY MODELS (barring bell's imagination of course)
and what you and your kind have done instead is to put pressure on women to identify their rapists before they are raped.
and the trauma of identifying someone who means to do something malicious to you outweighs the trauma of suffering their actions in some magical way?
commonly referred to as the final preventative measure
Sure. I highly advise everyone to take such classes, regardless of sex. But that is not going to always work and does not always work. Because the majority of women are raped by the men they know and studies upon studies have found that such rapes occur because women may not want to attack their spouse or intimate partner or relative, or may not be able to simply because they were asleep when they are raped or inebriated.
so do you feel traumatized by taking self defense classes or do you feel empowered?
Going out on a wild guess here, let's assume that you find it empowering ...
Why would you suspect someone might find it empowering?
Could it possibly be because they now have a tool for reducing the likelihood of themselves from becoming a victim in some circumstance?
Or is all this simply a ruse for getting culprits off the hook (since, you know, if you have a preventative measure up your sleeve and it doesn't work or get implemented for whatever reason, then its obviously all your fault .... after all there is absolutely no way for preventative and advocacy models to exist outside of being mutually exclusive, no?)?
Can you start to see how you are starting to sound like an absolute imbecile?
So what has been found is that talk of 'rape prevention' only makes those women feel guilty and so, they do not come forward because there is this inherent belief that women must always fight back and if they did not, then they somehow weren't raped or wanted it to happen.
If you were actually familiar with the type of information sessions I am talking about, you would know that they incorporate victim advocacy. IOW part of the prevention model includes what to do when things go wrong - who to contact, what to expect, personal testimony etc and even things like how to identify the culprit etc.
IOW the person most likely to be silent about it is an individual with a reduced scope for making informed decisions ... which hardly seems to be the type of person who pro-actively adopts a preventative model.
On the other hand, if an individual adopts your attitude of it not being their problem (since its ultimately a rapists duty not to rape them), they are more likely to succumb to the crisis of the situation
So do you understand now why your idiocy about rape prevention does not help women?
At this point the only thing I don't understand why you are still saying the same tired things since I have already refuted all this on more than one occasion
Do you live in the real world and speak to real people?
so you don't believe it was a real testimony from a real person based on their real experience of the real world?
No, rapists rarely "test the water first". And you are speaking about stranger rape. A woman who wakes up to find herself being raped by her spouse or partner or relative will usually have no signs prior to their rape. Nor would a woman who during foreplay says 'no' and he keeps pushing her and then rapes her without her consent.
So how about you take your head out of your posterior and apply it to real world situations.
Once again, their is personal testimony of people preventing rape from known persons having learnt the tools of risk management from seminars and the like.
If you don't want to read the links because it threatens to undermine your strong opinions, there is not really much I can do about it.
And once again, if you actually bother to read the links, you will see that it deals with a broad spectrum of types of rape ...
Once a rapist makes it clear he is going to rape her?
yeah you know.
Once the act is underway
Do you think a rapist tells the woman first that he is going to rape her? Do you actually think that's how it happens?
errr ... no.
But I certainly do think you haven't read any of the links
And do you understand or realise that not all women are able to fight back or apply such defensive measures physically or mentally? Yes? No? That one of the biggest things about self defense classes is to tell women that it is normal to freeze up and the reason your trainer will attack you over and over again is to try and push women into not freezing up but to react and even they tell you that freezing up is absolutely normal and if it happens when you are raped or attacked, then it is not your fault? Yes? No?
And the obvious point of doing this exercise is to illustrate to the woman that she will never be anything other than a victim since she will repeatedly and consistently freeze up when she gets attacked.
Indeed, the only reason she could possibly have to go to these self defense classes in the first place is to help her overcome the notion that she could ever hope to overcome a potential assault and thus prevent herself from becoming a victim.
Because being able to react in a self defense class does not mean that one is mentally prepared to react in the same way if one is raped in the real world which is usually one's home by someone one knows.
And not being able to react in any way due to a lack of knowledge/experience/strategy provides an even more morbid assessment of the scenario ....
Rape is about power, control, humiliation.. I have known many rapists who actually got off when his victim fought back and the harder she fought back, the better it made him feel and the more brutally he would rape her to teach her a lesson. That is the real world LG.
and that too -
surprise surprise - is also a piece of information mentioned in the links previously given.
Is your stupidity inherent or contrived?
well so far the only thing you have been able to find close to acceptable from prevention models is the self defense aspect (and even then, only in a half-arsed sort of way).
I am just trying to bring your assessment of the other topics (ie the non- physical aspects) these women present in their prevention seminars.
Again, is your stupidity something you were born with or contrived?
err no.
I am asking you a question, closely tied to the point above.
Let me repeat :
And yet she is now offering preventative seminars that go for a few hours that have no physical component. What on earth do you think they are discussing? Tupperware?
I am talking about the standard of personal self defense as it is professionally taught ... which is yet another example of how advocacy and prevention models work in tandem.
Now if you want to talk of a type of stupidity a person might either be born with or contrived , just assume that we had someone who placed advocacy and prevention models in a dichotomy and ....
Because I have spent the better part of over 10 years speaking to such women face to face and your links offer nothing new and your using such testimonies shows just how much you don't get it.
and your experience is obviously lacking on so many fronts and your inability to expand your world view seems to be nothing more than a consequence of your attitude.
From your post its obvious you haven't even read the information, much less comprehended it
I have done nothing of the sort.
So you can stop lying now.
Nonsense.
You have been labeling preventative models for rape as making excuses for rapists.
You have ridiculed the attitude of women who have not only gone on to survive rape but also teach others how to prevent it.
You offer absolutely nothing practical (granted, you did say "run" at one point)for someone who is suddenly faced with the prospect of rape.
In short, your advice is "wait until you become a victim, then you can do something".
The behaviour of rapists is unpredictable. Because no woman will know in advance who is going to rape her.
This is fact in the real world.
No.
Its not the real world.
Its simply your world view divorced from any empowering knowledge - empowering knowledge given by female rape survivors I might add too ... just to make it perfectly clear who are implicating when you talk of the idea being stupid.
One of your links was about a woman who was raped by two police officers in New Zealand, which just goes to show how unpredictable it is. Her preventative model is not to identify who is a possible rapists, because what happened to her was clearly something that she could never have envisaged nor could she have identified them before they attacked her, but to help women deal with what is happening to them and to tell them that however they may react is normal and it teaches self defense not as a means to prevent being raped, but as a way to survive it as well. But the underlying theme at such seminars is that not all women will be able to react or prevent their rape and the best thing they need to do is to try to survive it. Because the underlying theme of self defense is survival. Understand now?
All we can understand is that you are in the habit of never letting
the truth of a situation interfere with your opinion.
'Speaking as somebody who has been a victim, to learn these strategies to not to be a victim again – it's vital for every single woman to equip themselves with these skills,' the former New Zealander of the Year explains.
Although there is no physical component to the two-and-half hour Auckland-based seminar, it aims to enlighten participants on how to better identify and avoid potential violence.
They'll learn to pinpoint manipulation strategies used against women, examine the stages of self-defence, and understand the psychology of an attacker and how they choose their targets.
Says he who keeps acting and posting as if women are supposed to identify their potential rapists and prevent being raped.
says she who doesn't read information and insist on strange precepts that are totally bereft of a functional model in the real world
It doesn't work that way in the real world.
It doesn't work for you simply because your experience and knowledge base is too narrow ... and to top it off, a belligerent attitude to any parties threatening to broaden it.
You ask how does one identify a rapist ...
I provide a link - you don't read it.
I provide an excerpt from a woman who facilitates teaching a seminar that includes this subject - you ignore it.
I provide a run down from a personal testimony - you say this is not from the real world.
And yet I don't doubt for a second that your next reply will come back to this same question that your arrogance and attitude simply prohibits you from discussing.
:shrug:
