"advice" noted and determined to nothing more than a mod threat in an effort to suppress the opposition.
Seagypsy, really.. Enough already.
No, really.
Enough.
Enough trying to flame and bait me. It is not going to work. At all.
His language is very much pro-life.
His constant inability to agree with your perspective is what is really bothering you isn't it, Bells? Can you quote where he called an unborn child, very young children? I missed it.
No. He actually isn't bothering me.
Why do you want him to bother me?
As for his referring to the unborn as ' very young children', we see the
first of it here:
Neverfly said:
Agreed and they are out of line. I may be somewhat off topic for this thread. But when I see arguments based in the manner you and Tiassa are basing them, they still deserve examination. You seem so intent on some anti-conservative or anti-religion crusade that you're willing to utterly disregard the lives of young children.
I queried it:
Bells said:
So now it's young children?
My my, we have gone from you declaring that a foetus tried to escape the suction tube to now declaring that I have a complete disregard for the lives of "young children". What next Mr Neverfly?
Whereupon
he confirmed his actual meaning:
Neverfly said:
[=BellsQUOTE]So now it's young children?
Yes, considering the stage of development and none of your religious-like denials will alter reality.[/QUOTE]
And then after much to-ing and fro-ing, he gives a definite timeline of when it is a "very young child" because I had pointed out that he was describing an embryo as a "very young child", to which he aid no, that it was from 18-20 weeks of gestation when it has a brain (brain actually starts to function at 8 weeks, which I later pointed out to him when he edited his post. But
here is his edited post (I responded to both the original and edited versions):
Neverfly said:
Nope!
I never did. Though it appears you have assumed that... which could only happen if you did not really read my posts. I didn't even imply it. I was clear- the only time I have spoken against abortion is when there is a brain/nervous system (not when it begins to develop, either, when, as I said, it's there), which is about 18-20 weeks. You really need to read what you're responding to, Bells.
Is that sufficient evidence for you?
Sure you keep telling yourself that.
I don't need to. The record of this thread speaks for itself.
You can constantly try to bait me into breaking a rule to explain where that was coming from if you want. But I won't give in. It had nothing to do with any current situations you are going through. I missed the part about you having a surgery. You can either accept that it stemmed from something different and keep demanding that I break a rule or not. I really don't care. I guess I can tell you which rule I am avoiding breaking....the one about posting PMs exchanged. I was responding to something in a PM. It was inappropriate for me to do that. I didn't however post quotes or names from the PM so the rule as yet has not been broken. I will say no more regardless of how you badger.
See, I do not understand how or what my personal life or medical or personal issues actually have to do with you or this discussion. At all.
Now, you accused me directly of apparently using it in some form or other to garner sympathy or pity in this debate, when I had not done so, before you then went on and described your own personal and private and current problems for reasons unknown. You did this. Not me. Not anyone else.
I do not know what PM's you are talking about as I don't really chat with you via that medium unless I have to convey something to you in regards to something posted in Human Science. Unless of course this is how you speak to people via PM's if they were unfortunate enough to divulge something personal about their lives to you, then so be it. That is between you and that individual. It is of no concern to me or the subject matter of this thread.
Where? Links? you declaring something so doesn't make it true.
You did not understand his posts and responses to you?
Tiassa's posts which are directed at you start from:
Post 37
Post 86 - Where he addresses your questions again.
Post 107 - Where he again addresses your questions.
Which part of his answers did you not quite comprehend seagypsy?
I would suggest the same to you but I don't believe in suppressing the opposition.
You seem to have this need for me to be as upset and angry in this thread and about this thread as you are.
Sorry if I cannot oblige.
If you feel being told that you should calm down before posting is suppressing you...?
Um, are you not aware that the Nazi's are not the only people that use gas chambers? There are plenty of prisons in the USA that either do or have used the gas chamber as their means of execution. Sheesh, Nazi's eat, sleep and die too, are you suggesting that eating, sleeping and dying are all strictly Nazi behaviors? Good grief.
My apologies. I had forgotten that the Government of your country also uses gas chambers to kill people and you are only applying local knowledge to such a matter.
Sorry for the confusion and my mistake.
interesting that you assume only nazi's have ever used the gas chamber. So who brought up nazi's? YOU.
Refer to above.
And again, my apologies for not also recognising that your country also used gas chambers to kill people.
No, Bells, I am not a doctor. Good point. You are also not a doctor. So you cannot make any more valid claims in this regard than I can. Doctors are not always right. I was told to abort 3 times or I would die. I didn't abort or die. I guess doctors don't know everything do they. Doctors are humans, completely fallible. That is why they leave options up to us. They can give recommendations but they do not give orders. Because they don't KNOW either. I also feel a doctor that pushes a fear onto a woman is unethical.
You said:
seagypsy said:
And if a woman's life only becomes endangered in the 3rd trimester, what good will abortion do that inducing early live birth can't do? In most cases, if the woman's life becomes endangered in the 3rd trimester, killing the baby is unnecessary and will be as traumatic as giving birth. So why needlessly kill something that is alive. It's like stopping to kill a kitten because you are running late to work. It serves NO purpose.
"In most cases, if the woman's life becomes endangered in the 3rd trimester, killing the baby is unnecessary and will be as traumatic as giving birth."..
Quite a claim.
Without any proof or back-up whatsoever.
So I ask you, are you a doctor to make such a claim?
And you give the response above..
At this point, can I say, I dread the thought that you may actually come into contact with a woman whose life is endangered by her pregnancy because if you give her the kind of advice that you seem to think is correct which you posted and I quoted above, then the thought fills me with dread.
I am not a doctor, nor do I claim to be one. I am also not the one saying that women in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy who find that they have a medical issue which results in their pregnancy putting their life at risk should not listen to their doctor's advice because you were apparently told to abort 3 times and did not and you did not die..
Of all the dangerous and idiotic things said on this forum, this post of yours would have to be up there seagypsy.
Can you provide links to any cases where late term abortion saved a woman, where absolutely no doctor feels that the abortion was not necessary. Late term abortion, from the way it has been described to me seems to cause as much trauma if not more to the woman's body than a c section or induced early labor. But what do I know, YOU are the expert. It's not like I have ever faced death in delivery. 2 times doesn't count. Maybe I should have faced death 5 or 6 times for my experiences to count as first hand.
Your question does not even make any sense.
Are you asking me to provide proof or links to refute the unsupported and unsubstantiated claims you have made?
You can start here:
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/ - If you want to wade through the hundreds of bring you to your knees stories of heartbreak that women had to face in having to terminate their pregnancy for medical reasons, you are free to do so. The site is dedicated to women you just called 'child killers'..
We also have the story of
Ms Watts:
If the ban were in place in 1995, Tammy Watts would likely be dead, she says.
In March of that year, Watts was in the eighth month of a much-wanted pregnancy and was eagerly anticipating the birth of her first child. During a routine ultrasound (the only way to detect abnormalities that require late-term abortion), she discovered her baby had Trisomy 13, a chromosomal abnormality that causes severe deformities and carries no hope of survival.
Because her baby was already dying and because this put her own life at stake, Watts had an intact dilation and extraction (D and X), the procedure that Bush condemns as "brutal."
"Losing my baby at the end of my pregnancy was agonizing," says Watts. "But the way the right deals with this issue makes it even worse. When I heard Bush mention 'partial birth abortion' during the debates, I thought 'How dare you stand there and tell flat-out lies?' There is no such thing as this procedure! Why won't the politicians listen to us?"
And
here:
When Congress first considered the ban in 1995, Watts testified on Capitol Hill. So did Viki Wilson of Fresno, Calif., who had a late-term abortion because the brain of the fetus she was carrying had developed outside the skull. So did Vikki Stella of Naperville, Ill., whose fetus had dwarfism, no brain tissue and seven other major abnormalities.
All three women told legislators they owed their health to late-term abortions and that a continuation of their doomed pregnancies posed grave health risks such as stroke, paralysis, infertility or even death.
I don't put the murder on her. I put it on the doctor actually. Any doctor that manipulates a woman to killing a 3rd trimester fetus is, imo, unethical. You are welcome to view it otherwise. My doctors were adamant in urging me to have abortions. It was traumatic for me to deal with the fears they were projecting onto me. But when I asked them to explain the logic behind the need for abortion they went silent. None of them could give a LOGICAL reason for why I must abort in order to save my life. I find sometimes, Doctors just want the easy way out, maybe their work load is heavy, or maybe my pregnancy was high risk and too demanding of their time. Maybe they thought I didn't deserve a child due to my own terminal illness. Who knows what their motives were, but when asked to provide a logical reason for the pressure they were putting on me, they drew blanks.
Wow.. You didn't push the murder on her.. Just.. wow.. I actually feel embarrassed for you.
So you view her as a murderer if she has an abortion out of medical necessity in the third trimester because you were lucky?
Well how lucky for you that you were okay. Not every woman has that luxury.
You must have applauded Akin's statement's then. I mean you are putting even pro-lifer's to shame here.
so no rebuttal then? cool. we are getting somewhere maybe?
No, I had advised my colleagues when you first started becoming abusive about this issue that I was waiting for the killing kittens argument. Unfortunately, you did not fail to deliver.
You see, if you were careful to always limit your arguments to when a mother's life were in danger, I wouldn't have gone that route, but you have argued in favor of abortion for any reason, such as being inconvenient to the mother. That is why I brought it up. Being late for work is inconvenient, and so is being pregnant, even to those who want their fetuses. But some inconveniences are simply worth it.
In a paragraph discussing late term abortions for medical necessity and where you accuse women who are unfortunate enough to have to make that decision to save their own lives of being child killers... Sure..
And you are acting as if my participation in this thread is a conspiracy against anyone who debates with Neverfly. He debates in lots of threads. Many that I have no interest in whatsoever. He even tries to get me interested in threads sometimes to no avail. It probably annoys him that I don't take any interest in astronomy or physics. he starts to explain something to me that is being debated in a thread and I just stare at him like a deer in the headlights because I have no interest in anything he is saying and am trying my hardest to look like I am listening. I'm sure he does it to me sometimes too but we can't expect each other to share all our interests with each other. So get a grip. I defend him on rare occasion. And if this were Balerion you were attacking in such a dishonest manner I would defend him too. And Balerion was banned for a few days for using the tactics you are using here. Too bad I don't have those incriminating photos of the admin he suggested that I have . If I did, you wouldn't be getting away with this behavior now either.
What tactics do you think I am using here?
Not getting angry and emotional, slanderous, libelous and abusive and making false and spurious accusations such as accusing people of being serial killers?
That's what bothers you the most, doesn't it? That I am not biting back.
I am sorry seagypsy. You are not worth any effort in that regard.
Your views are, frankly, dangerous and repugnant.
I figure if you and yours can take extreme liberties at how you interpret a person's post, such as you and Tiassa have of Neverfly's, I should be just as allowed to go to extremes in my perspective. Don't like it, then maybe you and your ilk shouldn't be setting the precedent.
My ilk?
Who is my ilk?
People who feel that women should be given the right to choose, just as you exercised your right to choose?
Your attempt to flame have been duly noted, as have your slanderous accusations towards a member of the staff here that he is like a serial killer. As much as you can try and claim that Tiassa and I are supposedly misinterpreting Neverfly's posts or yours, the actual reality is that we are not and your posts stand as an embarrassing testament of repugnant attitudes and beliefs such as the likes of Akin and you have declared in this thread.
no more slanderous than his calling Neverfly a misogynist or a pro-lifer. And no more slanderous than you claiming that Neverfly doesn't see women as human. No more slanderous than any of the lies you and your ilk have perpetrated against Neverfly.
Neverfly's attitudes are pro-life, something
you acknowledged yourself when you accused us of apparently turning him into someone pro-life. And his attitudes are misogynistic, as are yours. And yours and the claims you have made in this thread are not just misogynistic and cruel, but downright dangerous.
I may not be calm but I am logical. Just because YOU cannot discuss this topic in a calm logical manner without spurious and abusive and slanderous attacks on people does not mean that the victims of your slanderous sprays must leave. Keep in mind, I have not ordered or advised anyone to take a break or leave. YOU are the one issuing those demands.
May I remind you, seagypsy, you have abused my personal circumstance and accused me of supposedly using them for gain in this thread, you also inferred slanderous things about me and then went on to suggest that Tiassa was like a serial killer. And you believe that this is logical behaviour?
I advised you, politely to calm down before you return to this thread, because frankly, your embarrassing display has become a dangerous and repugnant one.
I have a grip on myself just fine. You are just annoyed that YOU cannot get a grip on me.
Okay, I need to ask, because now you nave piqued my curiosity.
Why do you have this need for me to be annoyed?
Don't inflict your religious demands against me, Bells.Get a grip and stop embarrassing yourself. Really!
Figure of speech escaped you?
Seagypsy, we have come to the point where I am begging you to stop giving yourself more rope here. No, seriously.
You have gotten to the point where you are accusing women who have medically necessary abortions in the third trimester of being murderers and have declared they did not need to have abortions.. You have accused Tiassa, without any proof or reason, of being like a serial killer.
This is bordering on an SNL sketch of the ridiculous..
And as someone who used to value your posts and found you insightful and intelligent, it makes me cringe and withdraw with horror and repugnance.
I don't know how else to get this through your head.
Stop..
I prefer to refer to HIS words to determine his position on the issue, not yours. I can think for myself thank you. I don't allow fanatical editorials to tell me what to think of what I can see and interpret plainly and easily for myself.
I find it awesome that you can constantly tell me to get a grip but the one time I suggested that you and others were too emotional to discuss something you threatened me with moderation. I would appreciate if you stop telling me to calm down. I have. If pointing out the fallacies in your charges somehow denotes a lack of calm then you should stop trying to point out fallacies in charges as well, as it is revealing of your lack of calm.
If I was, at any point, going to threaten you with moderation, it would have been made very obvious to you. And as much as you can try and accuse me of that, all I have asked you, for your own sake and everyone else's, is that you do take a step back, calm down before you return to this thread.
In case you have failed to notice, you are drowning out other people in this thread and your posts are now bordering on, well, sorry, but Akin like with misinformation and dangerous propaganda.
But okay, I will stop telling you to calm down. So please, knock yourself out.....