Quick question for M*W and Trilairian

[beyondtimeandspace]

It's uncharacteristic of me to make new threads, but I thought it would be a good time to pose the question I have for the two of you. The question is a simple one, and should be quite easy for either of you to answer.

The question is this:

What, exactly, are your reasons for believing that Akenaten and Moses are the same person? (It is Akenaten right? or am I getting names mixed up here?)

 

[Paraclete]

Actually I think they think that somebody think that Akenathen and Jesus is the same person - please correct me if I am wrong

I only think this .....

 

[Trilairian]

Actually I think they think that somebody think that Akenathen and Jesus is the same person - please correct me if I am wrong

I only think this .....

Ok, you're wrong. It was Tutankhamun who set himself up as a Jesus character, actually as Horus.

 

[Trilairian]

It's uncharacteristic of me to make new threads, but I thought it would be a good time to pose the question I have for the two of you. The question is a simple one, and should be quite easy for either of you to answer.

The question is this:

What, exactly, are your reasons for believing that Akenaten and Moses are the same person? (It is Akenaten right? or am I getting names mixed up here?)

Akhenaten was the only historical character that shared anything in common with the mythological Moses character, and he shared several commonalities. He was part Hebrew. He escaped death as a baby sent away by water. He was monotheistic. He built a tabernacle at mount Sinai. He would have known the seven of the ten commandments that come from the book of the dead. He would have used the brasen serpent on a staff as Moses did, only it was really a symbol for the pharoeh's authority. Given a sojourn in the wilderness to the fourth generation, instead of four-hundred years he lived at the same time the bible would have had Moses alive. When the anti-Monotheist pharoah outlawed the mention of his name he was called as Mos.
There is no other historical character that is a candadit for the inspiration of the Moses character in the bible.

 

[Lord Insane]

And since most historians believe Tutankamun is son of Akhenaten , this must mean that Jesus was son of Moses - Tutankamun (Jesus ) is only some 1300 years out of date with Pontius Pilate, who is a historical figure too , that makes sense .....

 

[philosopher´s stone]

Also way out, for the date of the roman empire ,which occupied Israel at the time of Jesus - he must be right .......

Tutankamun showing a roman silver denar in Israel saying : give to the emperor what belongs to the emperor ..............

Somehow that feels so right ..............

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Akhenaten was the only historical character that shared anything in common with the mythological Moses character

Well, I won't go into this, but it is certainly contestable. One of my following rebuttles will illustrate this.

He was part Hebrew.

The Hebrews were settled in Egypt, it isn't surprising that we find two people living around the same era who both have Egyptian and Hebrew blood. There were likely many many people with mixed blood. This is a weak link.

He escaped death as a baby sent away by water.

Actually, there were four ancient characters who shared this commonality, three of which we know actually existed. They were: Akenaten of Egypt, Moses of the Hebrews, King Sargon II of Assyria, and King Cyrus of Persia. It seems to be a common story for indicating a rise to greatness from humble beginnings. This is certainly not a strong link.

He was monotheistic.

He also had a cult following, likely not composed solely of Hebrews, meaning there were several monotheists, aside from the Hebrews themselves. The only reason you're making this link is because these two characters were important individuals. It's a link, but not a strong one.

He built a tabernacle at mount Sinai.

This is probably your strongest link so far. However, even it isn't concrete. Tabernacle literally means "tent," and Hebrew 'tabernacles' would have been places of worship as well. The tabernacles set up by the Hebrews during their exodus would have been just that, tents, collapsable and portable. If Akenaten build one on Sinai, it certainly wouldn't have been a true tabernacle. Rather, it would have really been a temple, a permanent building of worship. It's a connection, but in no way concrete.

He would have known the seven of the ten commandments that come from the book of the dead.

Irrelivant. Any Egyptian priest or Pharaoh would have been familiar with the book of the dead. These commandments would also have been taught publicly. That Moses was aware of them wouldn't be very surprising. Again, a weak argument.

He would have used the brasen serpent on a staff as Moses did, only it was really a symbol for the pharoeh's authority.

Did he? Or would he have? This seems more like speculation than anything. In any case, the serpent is not a symbol for the Pharaoh's authority. The serpent has always been a symbol of wisdom. Hindus call their priests "Nagas," which is a kind of snake. The serpent found on the forehead of the Pharaoh was a symbol of his initiation into the sacred rites where he would have gained knowledge of the 'Hidden Wisdom." Furthermore, as I have stated, the serpent was to be found on the forehead of the Pharaoh, particularly denoting this aspect of wisdom (being associated with the knowledge center of the human body), not on the end of a rod (unless you have evidence showing that Egyptian Pharaohs used rods tipped with serpends). The rod, throughout the Hebrew scriptures, was a symbol of the power of Yahweh, or more specifically, it was a tool through which the power of Yahweh was channeled. By tipping the rod of Moses with a serpent, the symbology is that Moses himself was an instrument of the power and wisdom of Yahweh, by which the Hebrews were healed. As far as I can tell, your argument here is speculative.

Given a sojourn in the wilderness to the fourth generation, instead of four-hundred years he lived at the same time the bible would have had Moses alive.

Many ancient figures made sojourns into the wilderness, you've even listed them in some of your other posts: Moses, Akenaten, Tutenkhamun, Jesus, Buddha, all of whom were in some way spiritual leaders, and all of whom spent similar numbered periods there. Like the story of being found in a river as an infant escaping death, this seems merely to be a tale indicating self-mastery, self-discovery, spritual enlightenment, etc. This is another connection, but it doesn't hold up well.

When the anti-Monotheist pharoah outlawed the mention of his name he was called as Mos.

This is your strongest argument, and I will say also that it is certainly a strong argument. However, it isn't one that can't be contended. In the Book of Daniel, we hear much of the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, a king very much hated by the Hebrews for exiling them to Babylon from Judah. However, much of what is said about Nebuchadnezzar is actually untrue. Not untrue in that it never happened, untrue in that those things which Nebuchadnezzar was said to do were actually things that Nebuchadnezzar's successor, Nabonidus did. Nebuchadnezzar was such a hated character that the bad qualities of Nabonidus over time got transferred to Nebuchadnezzar. Similarly, it may be argued, the same may have happened here. We know Moses and Akenaten lived around the same period of time, but they aren't said to live at specifically the same time. What is possible is that Moses was already a known, and hated figure in Egypt, and characters like Akenaten, who shared ideas of monotheism with the leader of the Hebrews was probably given the name of that hated personage. Else, why would they have called him this?

I don't remember off hand the exact meaning of Moses' name, but it means something along the lines of "found among the reeds." This is part of the reason why many think that this was not Moses' real name. However, what reason could the Egyptians have had to call Akenaten this, when the story of being found among the reeds was one associated with greatness? The anti-monotheist Pharaoh would have made a huge blunder in calling Akenaten this, associating him with greatness, unless there was already a previous character of this name who was hated by Egyptians (or possibly an older character who was a symbol of rebellion or oppression of sorts against Egypt, etc).

It's a strong connection, but I'm not convinced by it.

There is no other historical character that is a candadit for the inspiration of the Moses character in the bible.

I'm disregarding this because it assumes that Moses was a fictitious person, and can't be used to argue a connection between Moses and Akenaten.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

*edit* this was an accidental double post.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

It's uncharacteristic of me to make new threads, but I thought it would be a good time to pose the question I have for the two of you. The question is a simple one, and should be quite easy for either of you to answer.

The question is this:

What, exactly, are your reasons for believing that Akenaten and Moses are the same person? (It is Akenaten right? or am I getting names mixed up here?)

*************
M*W: I've read thoroughly the Akenhaten-Moses discourse, and I believe that Akenhaten was, in fact, the Moses of the Torah. Ahmed Osman presents very convincing evidence that "Moses" was the Pharaoh Akenhaten. I don't care what any other member thinks. Ahmed Osman was a scientific archeologist who researched the Exodus and found nothing supporting it. He was credentialed and one of the world's greatest Egyptologists. Moses, as Akenhaten, may have never truly existed, even though he was written about and published in the Pentateuch.

The genealogy of Moses surely indicates that there was a pharoah by the name of "Moses." "He, who was taken from the water." Moses was more of a title than name. Akenhaten was more of a title than name, meaning one who believes the Sun is God and worshipped the Sun as such.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Actually I think they think that somebody think that Akenathen and Jesus is the same person - please correct me if I am wrong

I only think this .....

*************
M*W: Stand corrected, my friend. Akenhaten and Jesus were not the same person. Akenhaten was the Egyptian name for Moses, the pharaoh of Egypt known as Akhenaten or Amenhotep IV. Jesus never existed; therefore, never had any other name or title.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Ok, I'll accept that, M*W. Credentials are credentials. Assuredly, a great Egyptologist would be familiar with other happenings in the Near East. Though I think Trilairian needs to do more research to solidify his position, I'll accept your testamony.

Now, having accepted that there is a high degree of possibility that the Biblical Moses and Akenhaten were the same persons, one being based on the other, there are particular implications that must be addressed. Firstly, what impact does this have on the Jewish religion, and later, the Christian religion? You, of course, have taken a leap in saying that Jews and Christians actually practice sun-worship. This is a possible implication, but not a necessary one.

What, aside from the inspiration of Akenhaten for a Biblical character, leads you to believe that Jews practice sun-worship, though unwittingly? Is there any other reason, or is it entirely enveloped in the fact that Akenhaten developed a monotheistic sun-disk cult, and that this same person was the inspiration behind the Biblical Moses?

 

[Nisus]

Blind lead the blind!

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

And the blind are just that.

 

[Nisus]

Moses instituted an entire form of government and law;

Aka the Mosaic Law/ Law of Moses-- Rites of worship, sacrifices, he appointed leaders, Joshua was actually his successor.

You're seriously retarded MW. Stupid, idiotic and moronic. Wow that feels good to say, needed to get that out, okay anyways moving on...

So you're basically saying the exodus never happened. HAHA -- what Jerusalem just popped on the map? And all the sudden they made a history of how they got there?

Hebrews were led BY MOSES out of egypt! Then Joshua later brought them into the land of promise.

Akhenaten died in egypt. He didn't lead hebrews out of egypt.

Moses is not Akenhaten. and Ahmed Osman is a dumbass.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Case in point.

 

[Trilairian]

Moses instituted an entire form of government and law;

Aka the Mosaic Law/ Law of Moses-- Rites of worship, sacrifices, he appointed leaders, Joshua was actually his successor.

You're seriously retarded MW. Stupid, idiotic and moronic. Wow that feels good to say, needed to get that out, okay anyways moving on...

So you're basically saying the exodus never happened. HAHA -- what Jerusalem just popped on the map? And all the sudden they made a history of how they got there?

Hebrews were led BY MOSES out of egypt! Then Joshua later brought them into the land of promise.

Akhenaten died in egypt. He didn't lead hebrews out of egypt.

Moses is not Akenhaten. and Ahmed Osman is a dumbass.

We already told you how Isreal was descended of Caananites, not from a mass exodus. Try to keep up.

 

[Trilairian]

Well, I won't go into this, but it is certainly contestable. One of my following rebuttles will illustrate this.



The Hebrews were settled in Egypt, it isn't surprising that we find two people living around the same era who both have Egyptian and Hebrew blood. There were likely many many people with mixed blood. This is a weak link.



Actually, there were four ancient characters who shared this commonality, three of which we know actually existed. They were: Akenaten of Egypt, Moses of the Hebrews, King Sargon II of Assyria, and King Cyrus of Persia. It seems to be a common story for indicating a rise to greatness from humble beginnings. This is certainly not a strong link.



He also had a cult following, likely not composed solely of Hebrews, meaning there were several monotheists, aside from the Hebrews themselves. The only reason you're making this link is because these two characters were important individuals. It's a link, but not a strong one.



This is probably your strongest link so far. However, even it isn't concrete. Tabernacle literally means "tent," and Hebrew 'tabernacles' would have been places of worship as well. The tabernacles set up by the Hebrews during their exodus would have been just that, tents, collapsable and portable. If Akenaten build one on Sinai, it certainly wouldn't have been a true tabernacle. Rather, it would have really been a temple, a permanent building of worship. It's a connection, but in no way concrete.



Irrelivant. Any Egyptian priest or Pharaoh would have been familiar with the book of the dead. These commandments would also have been taught publicly. That Moses was aware of them wouldn't be very surprising. Again, a weak argument.



Did he? Or would he have? This seems more like speculation than anything. In any case, the serpent is not a symbol for the Pharaoh's authority. The serpent has always been a symbol of wisdom. Hindus call their priests "Nagas," which is a kind of snake. The serpent found on the forehead of the Pharaoh was a symbol of his initiation into the sacred rites where he would have gained knowledge of the 'Hidden Wisdom." Furthermore, as I have stated, the serpent was to be found on the forehead of the Pharaoh, particularly denoting this aspect of wisdom (being associated with the knowledge center of the human body), not on the end of a rod (unless you have evidence showing that Egyptian Pharaohs used rods tipped with serpends). The rod, throughout the Hebrew scriptures, was a symbol of the power of Yahweh, or more specifically, it was a tool through which the power of Yahweh was channeled. By tipping the rod of Moses with a serpent, the symbology is that Moses himself was an instrument of the power and wisdom of Yahweh, by which the Hebrews were healed. As far as I can tell, your argument here is speculative.



Many ancient figures made sojourns into the wilderness, you've even listed them in some of your other posts: Moses, Akenaten, Tutenkhamun, Jesus, Buddha, all of whom were in some way spiritual leaders, and all of whom spent similar numbered periods there. Like the story of being found in a river as an infant escaping death, this seems merely to be a tale indicating self-mastery, self-discovery, spritual enlightenment, etc. This is another connection, but it doesn't hold up well.



This is your strongest argument, and I will say also that it is certainly a strong argument. However, it isn't one that can't be contended. In the Book of Daniel, we hear much of the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, a king very much hated by the Hebrews for exiling them to Babylon from Judah. However, much of what is said about Nebuchadnezzar is actually untrue. Not untrue in that it never happened, untrue in that those things which Nebuchadnezzar was said to do were actually things that Nebuchadnezzar's successor, Nabonidus did. Nebuchadnezzar was such a hated character that the bad qualities of Nabonidus over time got transferred to Nebuchadnezzar. Similarly, it may be argued, the same may have happened here. We know Moses and Akenaten lived around the same period of time, but they aren't said to live at specifically the same time. What is possible is that Moses was already a known, and hated figure in Egypt, and characters like Akenaten, who shared ideas of monotheism with the leader of the Hebrews was probably given the name of that hated personage. Else, why would they have called him this?

I don't remember off hand the exact meaning of Moses' name, but it means something along the lines of "found among the reeds." This is part of the reason why many think that this was not Moses' real name. However, what reason could the Egyptians have had to call Akenaten this, when the story of being found among the reeds was one associated with greatness? The anti-monotheist Pharaoh would have made a huge blunder in calling Akenaten this, associating him with greatness, unless there was already a previous character of this name who was hated by Egyptians (or possibly an older character who was a symbol of rebellion or oppression of sorts against Egypt, etc).

It's a strong connection, but I'm not convinced by it.



I'm disregarding this because it assumes that Moses was a fictitious person, and can't be used to argue a connection between Moses and Akenaten.

Yes the serpend represented the pharoah as well. Also you can't argue from the bible any more than you can argue from the fairy tale of Hansel and Grettle. Nothing else you said was any kind of rebuttle.

 

[Trilairian]

And since most historians believe Tutankamun is son of Akhenaten , this must mean that Jesus was son of Moses - Tutankamun (Jesus ) is only some 1300 years out of date with Pontius Pilate, who is a historical figure too , that makes sense .....

So? Where is the historical evidence for the historical Jesus said to exist at that time?
You are making a wildly speculative assertion that the new testament account is at least somewhat true.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Yes the serpend represented the pharoah as well. Also you can't argue from the bible any more than you can argue from the fairy tale of Hansel and Grettle. Nothing else you said was any kind of rebuttle.

If anything, the serpent represented Pharaohic Wisdom, not the actual individual. If it interests you at all, the source that I've used to explain the serpent symbol is the source that you provided in one of your other threads, the theosophy organization.

Concerning your statement about the Bible, the only part of the Bible I made an argumentative point with was the Book of Daniel. The stories from the Book of Daniel, though not always attached to the correct historical characters, have been confirmed as true through other contemporary sources from Baylon and Persia, even Greece. Just because some parts of the Bible are historical/mythical, with historical inconsistencies, doesn't mean the whole Bible is necessarily untrustworthy. In fact, it has been shown to be trustworthy on many accounts, and your statement against it is an injustice.

Finally, I'd like to know what you consider a rebuttle, or do you always simply brush aside arguments that place pressure on your beliefs? I really don't understand how you can say what you have.

 

[Nisus]

We already told you how Isreal was descended of Caananites, not from a mass exodus. Try to keep up.

yea if you're a moron you believe that.