Questions for Atheists (Refresher Thread)
- Thread starter Ekimklaw
- Start date
James R,
Excellent discussion. I enjoyed it. Spirited as ever! Since we are beginning to retread a bit I suppose we will again agree to disagree, as the hackneyed old cliche puts. As usual, you were straightforward and clear in your arguments. Thanks for that.
Also thanks to everyone else who responded. I spent many a long hour reading this stuff.
-Mike
Excellent discussion. I enjoyed it. Spirited as ever! Since we are beginning to retread a bit I suppose we will again agree to disagree, as the hackneyed old cliche puts. As usual, you were straightforward and clear in your arguments. Thanks for that.
Also thanks to everyone else who responded. I spent many a long hour reading this stuff.
-Mike
Well, when the first telephone was built, who did they call? I'm talking about present single-cell organisms, nobody knows what the first did. They surely were much simpler.
The basic quiestion about all this is really:
Are we allowed to trust what our senses tell us?
Do the natural laws apply?
If the answers are yes, then life evolved on Earth over some half a billion years, even if we cannot fully explain how.
If the answers are no, then the next questions are:
Then what are we to believe in?
If all is due to devine intervention, then what qualifies e.g. the Bible in particular to be accepted as the Truth?
:bugeye: Hans:bugeye:
A theory that barges in and proclaims itself to be true, without any physical evidence whatsoever (I am not talking about retarded evidence like "God exists, therefore it is true" or "He made it so, your faith is enough proof") is not scientific. It does not belong in science. That is the case with creationism.
The sad thing is, creationism still lives on in the public imagination even though its been ravaged, annihilated, and raped all over in academic circles. just see for yourself.
Wanna see how reliable the public opinion is? There was a poll once, and not even half of the public correctly answered the question: "Did the dinosaurs and people live together?"
And, the higher level education you get to (high school => college => grad school => PhD, etc etc) the less people believe in creationism. In short, creationists are people who supplant their lack of knowledge with religious shit. Pretty sight, ain't it?
The sad thing is, creationism still lives on in the public imagination even though its been ravaged, annihilated, and raped all over in academic circles. just see for yourself.
Wanna see how reliable the public opinion is? There was a poll once, and not even half of the public correctly answered the question: "Did the dinosaurs and people live together?"
And, the higher level education you get to (high school => college => grad school => PhD, etc etc) the less people believe in creationism. In short, creationists are people who supplant their lack of knowledge with religious shit. Pretty sight, ain't it?
what made the big bang go bang?
I was just surfin' the web and stumbled across this thread. None of you ever explained how the big bang went bang. What made it go bang? What existed before the bang? Where did all the "stuff" come from to make a bang?
We're just wasting time on this spinning rock called Earth. Your time is running out. Got Jesus? If I'm wrong, who cares! If you're wrong, man does that suck for you.
I was just surfin' the web and stumbled across this thread. None of you ever explained how the big bang went bang. What made it go bang? What existed before the bang? Where did all the "stuff" come from to make a bang?
We're just wasting time on this spinning rock called Earth. Your time is running out. Got Jesus? If I'm wrong, who cares! If you're wrong, man does that suck for you.
Originally posted by Ekimklaw
#1. Has the universe always existed? If yes... explain how you can KNOW this. If no... explain how it began.
Probably not based on the whole big bang theory thing. I'll call it "big bangish" cuz it's not for sure, it's just probably mostly true.
#2. Where did matter come from (assuming it did not exist at some point in the past).
From the big bangish thing.
#3. Prove, citing empirical evidence only, that Socrates existed.
Can't do it. Doubt you can either.
#4. Given the interdependency of the organs of the human body, can you explain which organ evolved first?
I personally can't. I'd bet some evolutionary biologists have a real good idea.. I'd imagine there are some reasonably plausible theories out there, but I don't know them.
#5. Keeping in mind the concept of entropy, how did any minute form of matter exit the "water" and remain exposed long enough to begin the process of macro-evolving over "billions" of years?
I think life is the resulant of an as of yet unidentified force of nature that I call "the life-force" and that it is probably at least conceptually, the opposite of entropy. Of course that's just a theory.
#6. If you answered #5, please prove your theory using empirical evidence only.
Can't.
#7. Did insects evolve? Explain...
Probably, yes. Too lazy to try to bullshit my way through the explanation. I've heard it theories that seem very plausible.
#8. How did sexual reproduction evolve?
See last answer. I am not an expert on biology. I suppose you think you are?
#9. Which part of the human eye evolved first (pupil, iris, lens, cornea, retina, optic nerve, etc.)?
See last answer.
#10. Explain: If you were God... I know some of you think you already are...... but seriously, if you were God, what moral laws would you implement to make a society orderly and civil.
Uhm... if I was god I wouldn't design it that way. I guess I'd probably build behavioral junk into creatures to see what they come up with on their own..
Hope this is food for thought for you. I look forward to your responses. Enjoy!!!
Not really. Not all that interested in biology.
Answer
Frankly, I could care less of questions 1-9. However, Question 10 is intriguing. Hmm, I think, that if I were a god, I would have written the bible or a work like the bible in a format that was easy to understand for all people. No questions would be asked. No interpretations of it needed. One would think that a god could write a book with no contradictions and teachings by parables. But I have gotten off course here. Q's 1-9, as the atheist I am, mean nothing to me. I live now and care less of events billions of years old. Oh, and that includes events of 6000 years old, if some of you are Creation Scientists or those that believe in such things.
Frankly, I could care less of questions 1-9. However, Question 10 is intriguing. Hmm, I think, that if I were a god, I would have written the bible or a work like the bible in a format that was easy to understand for all people. No questions would be asked. No interpretations of it needed. One would think that a god could write a book with no contradictions and teachings by parables. But I have gotten off course here. Q's 1-9, as the atheist I am, mean nothing to me. I live now and care less of events billions of years old. Oh, and that includes events of 6000 years old, if some of you are Creation Scientists or those that believe in such things.
Good Reply
Dougrf,
You have captured my unstated meaning.
Any true God would not speak in riddles, create male and female with appendages and drives then dare them to use it or suffer eternal hell, etc.
It is a lot of "Carrot on a Stick" crap to take the gulible and make them servants of the church. Stay with us and become immortal you won't die and rot or don't believe us and burn eternally in the fires of hell.
A bit to dramatic for my tastes and a bit to ethnocentric as well.
Far as I am concerned if man was created in the image of God then God looks like an ape. At least that is what every bit of evidence seems to tell us and I believe the tangiable evidence far more than fairy tales written 326 years after the fact.
Further more that concept offers no answer what-so-ever to our physical existance.
"God created us and the entire universe?"
Out of what?
Where was his work shop before he created time, space and dimension?
Where was he before he created himself?
And considering the enormity of the Universe it seems highly inefficienct for it all to be for our benefit here on puny earth and man is nothing special in the wonders of creation.
No, it is nothing more than a filler for ignorance of nature.
If they ever hope to find and understand a God they must accept and study science.
Unfortunately (in my opinoin) what they will find is a natural process, not a God.
Dougrf,
You have captured my unstated meaning.
Any true God would not speak in riddles, create male and female with appendages and drives then dare them to use it or suffer eternal hell, etc.
It is a lot of "Carrot on a Stick" crap to take the gulible and make them servants of the church. Stay with us and become immortal you won't die and rot or don't believe us and burn eternally in the fires of hell.
A bit to dramatic for my tastes and a bit to ethnocentric as well.
Far as I am concerned if man was created in the image of God then God looks like an ape. At least that is what every bit of evidence seems to tell us and I believe the tangiable evidence far more than fairy tales written 326 years after the fact.
Further more that concept offers no answer what-so-ever to our physical existance.
"God created us and the entire universe?"
Out of what?
Where was his work shop before he created time, space and dimension?
Where was he before he created himself?
And considering the enormity of the Universe it seems highly inefficienct for it all to be for our benefit here on puny earth and man is nothing special in the wonders of creation.
No, it is nothing more than a filler for ignorance of nature.
If they ever hope to find and understand a God they must accept and study science.
Unfortunately (in my opinoin) what they will find is a natural process, not a God.
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I couldn't have said it better
Mac,
I couldn't agree more. Religions and faith are alien to me. I simply cannot grasp the concept, esp. X-tian views. I prefer the tangible, touchable meaning of life. For life I must live....*smiles*
*waits for a scathing attack from the believers....oh, and lots of scripture too*
Mac,
I couldn't agree more. Religions and faith are alien to me. I simply cannot grasp the concept, esp. X-tian views. I prefer the tangible, touchable meaning of life. For life I must live....*smiles*
*waits for a scathing attack from the believers....oh, and lots of scripture too*
Re: Answer
If there was "one true god" that was unambiguously described in the bible and, thus, required no interpretation on the part of the people, then of what value would their lives be?? You've changed them from being free-will, thinking individuals into sub-servient, mindless automatons who have no choice but to follow the will of their all-powerful god.
Think about it.
:m:
If there was "one true god" that was unambiguously described in the bible and, thus, required no interpretation on the part of the people, then of what value would their lives be?? You've changed them from being free-will, thinking individuals into sub-servient, mindless automatons who have no choice but to follow the will of their all-powerful god.
Think about it.
:m:
Hmmm...*thinking*....everlasting life...or burn in fire and brimstone for an eternity. Ahhh, ok. Free will. Choose not to be subservient mindless auto-matons and go to hell....or choose to BE mindless subserviant auto-matons and go to heaven. The most devout are like this. I work with one.
"If there was "one true god" that was unambiguously described in the bible and, thus, required no interpretation on the part of the people, then of what value would their lives be??".
The value of their lives would be, I imagine, the worship of that god. And that's all that a god needs. Not endless interpretation of so called inerrant divinely inspired words. This doesn't mean to say that everyone would be kneeling and praying every minute of the day. Life goes on. But the people would have a better understanding of what the god asks of them.
Now, about the top of this post.....it's not a slam on anyone. I only use your words in the context derived....and used in a context that everyone can understand.
"If there was "one true god" that was unambiguously described in the bible and, thus, required no interpretation on the part of the people, then of what value would their lives be??".
The value of their lives would be, I imagine, the worship of that god. And that's all that a god needs. Not endless interpretation of so called inerrant divinely inspired words. This doesn't mean to say that everyone would be kneeling and praying every minute of the day. Life goes on. But the people would have a better understanding of what the god asks of them.
Now, about the top of this post.....it's not a slam on anyone. I only use your words in the context derived....and used in a context that everyone can understand.
I only read the first post on this thread so if i say anything that has already been said- i apologise. If you wonder why i only read the first post it's cause it asked for my opinion- if i read everyone elses i might become biased and accept their way of thinking. For pure uniqueness of thought i declined from reading other posts.
The answer is quite simple: We do not know. Anyone who answers in definite manner is out of line. You dont know, i dont know.
Sumerian texts which predate the bible by one and a half millennia explained the process by which the cosmos was 'created'. From basic atoms and how they split etc etc.. Very intriguing stuff- it's not concrete proof but it is amazing to read.. This always made me wonder how people can accept something so readily..... If i just said: Sumerian texts are fact, everyone else is wrong you'd laugh at me. Why assume i'd do otherwise when the tables are reversed? You don't know, i don't know. That is unfortunately the way it is.
My own personal thought on the issue is that regardless of whether it has always been there or a god did it i plan to enjoy my mortal life the best i can. I will not live a life of servitude, or fear that i must be good and loving of others. Why must we fear in order to love? I'm just a human enjoying my human time. I consider the big bang reason more substantial as the 'god did it' theory. If you ask why specifically i will answer. To do so currenty will be very long and detailed and i do not intend to burden you with that.
What came first chicken or egg? When does the universe stop and when it does stop whats outside that? Oh how we take the punishment.. We sit down and debate over questions like these knowing full well we have no answer. We could take the easy route and say: "it's god, end of case" but is that really an answer? Ok we only really have a maximum of about 80 years..... we know we wont find out in that time so we find the answer to suit ourselves. Visitor is convinced the worlds evil is America because it 'apparently' says so in the bible. Doesn't that show how easy it is to interpret to please our own inability to answer questions like this? We want answers, we don't have them----- we make our own. I can't live by this motto. I know my pathetic human ability makes me incapable of answering such questions. Sickening, but true. I do not need diversion, i just deal with the fact there is no fact.
It's really not my place.... i never was hot on ancient greek or whatever. However if there is nothing to say he lived for certain he gets no more credibility in my book than anyone else does. If i said: prove leprechauns exist we'd be in exactly the same position. My brain might think they do, that's hardly fact. As such we're left with nothing but faith. Faith and truth are two completely different things. Some of us require more than faith.. God would understand that if he's there and could see no fault in the way we are.
I suppose if you look at it in that perspective the brain would be the first organ. There are animals today, (ants etc), that have no heart and so on. Either way we all die from the same thing: Brain stoppage. As for interdependancy of the human body etc..... Start from basic and work upwards, don't start from a fully developed body and work downwards as you currently are. As for organs of the human body from your angle....... We have an appendix, we have wisdom teeth. Why? They serve no purpose so why have them? Many people regard our being as perfect in its nature, but we are nothing more than faulty evolved beings, same as everything else. We evolve and change doesn't mean we're designed or perfect. If we were designed vs evolved why would we have useless, unused organs?
[quote#5. Keeping in mind the concept of entropy, how did any minute form of matter exit the "water" and remain exposed long enough to begin the process of macro-evolving over "billions" of years?[/quote]
Can you explain any better than anyone else? The answer is no, so why must we feel needy to attribute anything to a 'creator'? As i've said countless times we do not know. That doesn't mean we must have been created by a god or anything else.
Is this your claims to existence of god? Because we cannot answer questions like these? If so, i feel sorry for you. Neither of us can answer- we can only assume and summise. Just because we cant explain it doesnt mean it was some big invisible christian supporter.
Nobody would have 'answered' #5. They could have speculated and guessed and theorized......... Just like you, but nobody can answer unless they were there. None of us are any closer to truth. Your line of questioning is highly irrelevant to substantiating a god. You've accepted your answer to save you from searching. Most people understand the fact we do not know and continues to search. Your days work is done. Why indeed would you even need to ask if you weren't in doubt of your 'simple' answer?
Yeah they did/no they didn't.... what difference does it make? If you want to know the answer........ SEARCH. Don't say: well... god did it, end of story. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. You will never know unless you search. If you look at Primeval insects caught in sap and stuff you will have a working baseline. You can study via those means. At least then you have something substantial to work with. Saying 'i feel it in my heart' is not an answer to anything, yet so many people believe otherwise.
However i can answer this question to some degree.......
There are several varieties of stick insect that no longer have male counterparts. The female learned how to fertilise herself and after time all males ceased to exist. This is shown and proven insect evolution. So yes....... I can accurately state 'some' insects do evolve. Whether they all do is not my position but i have clearly shown some do.
Now from your field of view.... Tell me why god felt like removing all males from a few particular stick insect species.
Completely pointless questions. I'm 100% sure there's no person on the face of the planet that can tell you why/how a dick evolved. I am 100% sure there's no relevance when concerning dicks, fannies, or irises to God. Seeings as this is a religious forum i assume there's supposed to be some relevance to religion? And human eye/sexual organs still remains inconsequential merely because if we were created of if we just evolved it's still unanswerable. Did God mention which part of the human eye was made first? If not, what in the fucking world makes you think a human can answer it?
I wouldn't need to, after all, i'd be god. If i needed toys to mess around with i'd make loads of beings all over the cosmos and let them do as they pleased. I wouldn't need to give orders or anything 'cause i'd already know they'd be smart enough to figure it out for themselves.
The answer is quite simple: We do not know. Anyone who answers in definite manner is out of line. You dont know, i dont know.
Sumerian texts which predate the bible by one and a half millennia explained the process by which the cosmos was 'created'. From basic atoms and how they split etc etc.. Very intriguing stuff- it's not concrete proof but it is amazing to read.. This always made me wonder how people can accept something so readily..... If i just said: Sumerian texts are fact, everyone else is wrong you'd laugh at me. Why assume i'd do otherwise when the tables are reversed? You don't know, i don't know. That is unfortunately the way it is.
My own personal thought on the issue is that regardless of whether it has always been there or a god did it i plan to enjoy my mortal life the best i can. I will not live a life of servitude, or fear that i must be good and loving of others. Why must we fear in order to love? I'm just a human enjoying my human time. I consider the big bang reason more substantial as the 'god did it' theory. If you ask why specifically i will answer. To do so currenty will be very long and detailed and i do not intend to burden you with that.
What came first chicken or egg? When does the universe stop and when it does stop whats outside that? Oh how we take the punishment.. We sit down and debate over questions like these knowing full well we have no answer. We could take the easy route and say: "it's god, end of case" but is that really an answer? Ok we only really have a maximum of about 80 years..... we know we wont find out in that time so we find the answer to suit ourselves. Visitor is convinced the worlds evil is America because it 'apparently' says so in the bible. Doesn't that show how easy it is to interpret to please our own inability to answer questions like this? We want answers, we don't have them----- we make our own. I can't live by this motto. I know my pathetic human ability makes me incapable of answering such questions. Sickening, but true. I do not need diversion, i just deal with the fact there is no fact.
It's really not my place.... i never was hot on ancient greek or whatever. However if there is nothing to say he lived for certain he gets no more credibility in my book than anyone else does. If i said: prove leprechauns exist we'd be in exactly the same position. My brain might think they do, that's hardly fact. As such we're left with nothing but faith. Faith and truth are two completely different things. Some of us require more than faith.. God would understand that if he's there and could see no fault in the way we are.
I suppose if you look at it in that perspective the brain would be the first organ. There are animals today, (ants etc), that have no heart and so on. Either way we all die from the same thing: Brain stoppage. As for interdependancy of the human body etc..... Start from basic and work upwards, don't start from a fully developed body and work downwards as you currently are. As for organs of the human body from your angle....... We have an appendix, we have wisdom teeth. Why? They serve no purpose so why have them? Many people regard our being as perfect in its nature, but we are nothing more than faulty evolved beings, same as everything else. We evolve and change doesn't mean we're designed or perfect. If we were designed vs evolved why would we have useless, unused organs?
[quote#5. Keeping in mind the concept of entropy, how did any minute form of matter exit the "water" and remain exposed long enough to begin the process of macro-evolving over "billions" of years?[/quote]
Can you explain any better than anyone else? The answer is no, so why must we feel needy to attribute anything to a 'creator'? As i've said countless times we do not know. That doesn't mean we must have been created by a god or anything else.
Is this your claims to existence of god? Because we cannot answer questions like these? If so, i feel sorry for you. Neither of us can answer- we can only assume and summise. Just because we cant explain it doesnt mean it was some big invisible christian supporter.
Nobody would have 'answered' #5. They could have speculated and guessed and theorized......... Just like you, but nobody can answer unless they were there. None of us are any closer to truth. Your line of questioning is highly irrelevant to substantiating a god. You've accepted your answer to save you from searching. Most people understand the fact we do not know and continues to search. Your days work is done. Why indeed would you even need to ask if you weren't in doubt of your 'simple' answer?
Yeah they did/no they didn't.... what difference does it make? If you want to know the answer........ SEARCH. Don't say: well... god did it, end of story. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. You will never know unless you search. If you look at Primeval insects caught in sap and stuff you will have a working baseline. You can study via those means. At least then you have something substantial to work with. Saying 'i feel it in my heart' is not an answer to anything, yet so many people believe otherwise.
However i can answer this question to some degree.......
There are several varieties of stick insect that no longer have male counterparts. The female learned how to fertilise herself and after time all males ceased to exist. This is shown and proven insect evolution. So yes....... I can accurately state 'some' insects do evolve. Whether they all do is not my position but i have clearly shown some do.
Now from your field of view.... Tell me why god felt like removing all males from a few particular stick insect species.
Completely pointless questions. I'm 100% sure there's no person on the face of the planet that can tell you why/how a dick evolved. I am 100% sure there's no relevance when concerning dicks, fannies, or irises to God. Seeings as this is a religious forum i assume there's supposed to be some relevance to religion? And human eye/sexual organs still remains inconsequential merely because if we were created of if we just evolved it's still unanswerable. Did God mention which part of the human eye was made first? If not, what in the fucking world makes you think a human can answer it?
I wouldn't need to, after all, i'd be god. If i needed toys to mess around with i'd make loads of beings all over the cosmos and let them do as they pleased. I wouldn't need to give orders or anything 'cause i'd already know they'd be smart enough to figure it out for themselves.
How do you tell the difference?
Of course, when you're talking about an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing god, how do you tell the difference?
Can even a god with infinite patience put up with "yes men" for eternity?
When God can feed the masses with mere crusts of bread, why bother toiling in the fields?
Re: what made the big bang go bang?
I don't consider my life to be a waste of time. I was wrong to state it that way. From your atheist point of view, you're just wasting time in this waiting room of death.
Nice way to dodge the question though!
"Strong atheism" actually refutes itself and serious atheists acknowledge this and refer to themselves as "weak ahteists". You see for someone to state that there is no God one would have to know the entirety of the universe at one time, thus making them omniscient and omnipresent - which are diestic properties. You would have to be a god to state that there is no God.
I don't have to be god-like to have faith that there is a God because he gave us the Scriptures to test his existence. I didn't believe for a long time and realized that I had to really study the Bible to know why I didn't believe. After many many hours of dedicated study I've come to the conclusion that there must be a God and that he sent his Son to redeem fallen mankind. I know it sounds crazy! It sounded crazy to me!
One of the many things that changed my mind is the prophecies. For one man to fullfill all the biblical prophecies of the coming messiah is astronomical to an extreme. You would have a better chance of winning the lottery everyday for a month.
I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Besides that, if I'm wrong, who cares, but if you're wrong eternity is a really long time. I'm not trying to scare you into a faith, but trying to point out the utter importance in your choice of whether to believe or not. In other words, are you damned sure there is no God.
Anyways, so what caused the big bang to go bang?
Originally posted by BatM
If you consider your life to be a "waste of time", then it may also suck for you.
I don't consider my life to be a waste of time. I was wrong to state it that way. From your atheist point of view, you're just wasting time in this waiting room of death.
Nice way to dodge the question though!
"Strong atheism" actually refutes itself and serious atheists acknowledge this and refer to themselves as "weak ahteists". You see for someone to state that there is no God one would have to know the entirety of the universe at one time, thus making them omniscient and omnipresent - which are diestic properties. You would have to be a god to state that there is no God.
I don't have to be god-like to have faith that there is a God because he gave us the Scriptures to test his existence. I didn't believe for a long time and realized that I had to really study the Bible to know why I didn't believe. After many many hours of dedicated study I've come to the conclusion that there must be a God and that he sent his Son to redeem fallen mankind. I know it sounds crazy! It sounded crazy to me!
One of the many things that changed my mind is the prophecies. For one man to fullfill all the biblical prophecies of the coming messiah is astronomical to an extreme. You would have a better chance of winning the lottery everyday for a month.
I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Besides that, if I'm wrong, who cares, but if you're wrong eternity is a really long time. I'm not trying to scare you into a faith, but trying to point out the utter importance in your choice of whether to believe or not. In other words, are you damned sure there is no God.
Anyways, so what caused the big bang to go bang?
this is only problematic if you assume that a cell evolved alone and created all life.
The thing to keep in your mind is that there is always a population of organisms in a species that display variation. They exchange variation with each other. Similar for the first cell. There was no first cell. There was a group of first cells, or very nearly cells.
It's just a question that arises from a misunderstanding. As usual. As all of these questions probably on the list probably.
Have insects evolved? What a strange question. If you would understand evolution you would never ask this question. All life evolved and therefore also insects. To ask the subquestion, 'did insects evolve' then becomes ridiculus and I haven't got the faintest clue what must be going on in your mind for you to ask this question. The only sensible question would be: did present life evolve? to which the answer would be yes.