Question for Atheists

So what I expect to happen in Europe isn't so much an ISIS-style forceable 'Islamification or death' as it is the growth of states-within-states in a number of European countries. Muslims will end up having their own schools, their own Islamic courts with jurisdiction over cases concerning Muslims, and so on. It's almost inevitable, as millions of Muslims move to Europe in search of a wealthier lifestyle, but with no intention of giving up their own cultures or assimilating. As their numbers grow, so will their power and their ability to institutionalize that culture alongside the cultures that are already there.

With the demographic trends being what they are, the former native homogeneous populations in Europe cannot really hope to compete as states among states. Consider they do not, as majorities, currently demonstrate the will to insist muslims integrate into their respective cultures i.e. German, Scandanavian,etc. I think it is quite likely that Europe will become an islamic state. Only time will tell. The time may well arrive when many are forced to make the choice presented in the OP.
 
Don't you think it's more likely that European nations will limit Muslim immigration before something like that happens?
 
Don't you think it's more likely that European nations will limit Muslim immigration before something like that happens?

I think that they could, but I'm doubtful that they will.

Europe is still reverberating from the shock of two world wars in a generation. They are determined that those horrors will never happen again. Post-war European culture is defined by that determination.

So as a result, patriotism and nationalism are perceived by the ruling European elites as evils. Identifying with one's country, language, history and culture are acknowledged to still be widespread among the little people on the street, but those sentiments are dismissed and condemned by better people as crude and dangerous atavisms. I guess that the new European ideal is to rise above nation and regional identifications so as to be 'global' or something, and to champion the free movement of peoples everywhere and the idea that people everywhere are essentially the same.

Implicit in that thinking is the blithe assumption that people everywhere, if given the freedom to choose, will choose to be good little European progressives. While the specifics of national traditions are dismissed as atavisms, a homogenized and idealized version of the European vision is imagined as being the universal condition of mankind.

Unfortunately, Islam is the disconfirming counter-example. There really are deep and fundamental cultural differences in what people imagine the ideal society should be. While many European intellectuals assume that the ideals of the French revolution were universal, there are just as many people out there who think of God's revelation of the Quran in exactly the same way.

Bottom line, concern about these kind of issues is like spitting into the wind of the cultural consensus formed by the European post-war elites. That helps explain why political expression is limited to new alternative political parties, why these parties have been growing dramatically in recent years, and why these kind of concerns are almost universally portrayed by European opinion-leaders as neo-fascist.
 
Birth rates across the board indicate that much of Europe will likely become islamic in the not too distant future. Additionally, the same can be said of islam as a political/religious force worldwide i.e. becoming the dominant religion in the world. If you woke up one day and found yourself in a situation where you were being given a choice to convert to islam or die, which would you choose?
The assumption is invalid. In the first place, the people who follow Islam are usually called Muslims. The ones expatriated to Europe tend to be the ones who are NOT fundamentalists. For example, during the takeover of Iran by Muslim fundamentalists millions of Iranians fled, fearing their lives, since they believed in principles like separation of church and state. These people would call themselves Muslims, but most likely not fit your definition. Millions fled to Europe. By the mid-80s there were entire neighborhoods along the Champs-Elysées where only Farsi could be heard on the street. This class of Shiite Muslims also populated neighborhoods in places like Los Angeles and just about all the main cities of the US. For the most part they dressed like Westerners, spoke English, enrolled in US schools and universities, earned degrees, and assimilated into our culture working mostly as career professionals, from doctors to lawyers to university professors and so on. The children of these expats are similarly situated, speaking American English with no discernible accent. Many of them, if not most, will identify Islam as their religion, but actually are agnostic. For the most part, they just want to live in peace and security, to remain in good standing with the law (you will rarely see them peddling dope, or turning to public assistance) and to live as good, decent people. And along the way there has been a small growth in Muslim schools and mosques, but modest compared to the growth of American fundamentalist megachurches. And odds are, they can teach your children evolution and big bang theory and climatology because they tend to be educated. So really this is a good thing, don't you think?

Another class of Muslim expats are the Bosnians, who fled unspeakable cruelty under the genocide perpetrated there by Christian extremists. They may have held onto their religion, but you will not notice them as easily, since, like the Iranians, they often blend in with the locals. At about the same time that the world was receiving refugees from Iran, there were people fleeing the second civil war in Eritrea. Since then there have decades of nearly continuous streams of asylum seekers from the Sudan. However, they are not a homogeneous culture by religion, so you don't have too much to worry about. But there is one Eritrean shopkeeper in my neighborhood who wears a scarf, so I will remain vigilant.

This thread is a pretty blatant example of xenophobia, cast as Islamophobia. But don't worry -- the Catholics don't sanction birth control and they are by far larger than all the Fundamentalists put together. So they will do well in countries like Spain, France, Italy, Poland - well probably all the countries you aren't really worried about. But really: you don't want all those Lutherans, Methodists and Calvinists from northern Europe to challenge your beliefs anyway, so maybe this is all for the best. Let the Muslims whittle them down, and you guys can send in the Bible thumpers to browbeat the survivors. Here's an idea: crush the economy of Europe, and then send the local populace to Salvation Army soup kitchens, where they have to listen to the sermon before they get to eat!

Yeah, if I had my choice between an educated moderate Muslim believer, who keeps her religion to herself, and a flaming Christian Fundamentalist, who is meddling with the public policy to impose his socially conservative ideas on the world -- then she would win my support hands down.

Sounds like the only thing to fear is fear itself.

But thanks for the opportunity to gratuitously attack people according to their religion. All for the advancement of America, the Constitution, and -- hell, if you are a believer -- the honor and glory of God, right?

Man, I sure hope a Christian fundamentalist never gets ahold of a nuke! /* shakes in boots */

Of course, there is another election around the corner.
 
Aqueous Id, I would like you to know that I if I could, I would have just spammed the like button at least 50 times. Sadly, it only registers once. You have just restored my faith in humanity!
 
Bottom line, concern about these kind of issues is like spitting into the wind of the cultural consensus formed by the European post-war elites. That helps explain why political expression is limited to new alternative political parties, why these parties have been growing dramatically in recent years, and why these kind of concerns are almost universally portrayed by European opinion-leaders as neo-fascist.
Their standing before neo-nazi flags, with members of the crowd giving the Nazi salute, their shaved heads and white power tattoos, not to mention the threats, intimidation, beatings of non-white people (regardless of religion) might have something to do with their being viewed as being neo-facists.

The last time there was this sort of fear and hatred against another religion in Europe, millions of people were gassed and incinerated to death. People are right to distrust those who continue to breed similar levels of fear and hatred of others based solely on their religious beliefs. Because to people like them and apparently you, you cannot be French and a Muslim at the same time. Which is, to put it mildly, an astoundingly bigoted comment to have made.

Although after photizo's white supremacist comments in other threads and your recent stereotyping about African Americans, I don't think it is so much the religion as it is what many like the two of you consider to be the browning of Europe.
 
Muslim aren't assimilating very well in Europe. It kind of reveals the lie of multiculturalism. It sucks that neo-fascists recognize this too, but it's not fascist to point out that if your society is accepting groups that aren't willing to assimilate, there will be problems. Of course the Jews should not have been killed, but it was the same with them. While there were many Jews that assimilated, many more were proud of having a distinct culture. When society experiences any level of hardship, those differences are brought out. In that case, it was also religion that stood in the way of a unified culture. This is a factor among blacks in the US too.
 
Aqueous Id, I would like you to know that I if I could, I would have just spammed the like button at least 50 times. Sadly, it only registers once. You have just restored my faith in humanity!

May you live long and prosper.

I think the premise here is to blame the victims. It's one of the traits of psychopaths, which often includes religiosity. And of course Photizo evidently doesn't care what European Muslims, or their relatives forced to live elsewhere - think about his concerns. That lack of empathy adds to the score on the psychopathy checklist.

I have worked with asylum seekers who arrived in the US tortured, maimed, raped and even shot. Funny, their religion really never came up.

Also what you said above about the neo fascists in Europe: once, when on business in Germany I noticed graffiti was showing up everywhere, "foreigners go home", and just as I got to my hotel to unwind and ask WTF? I turned on the tube and there was a story of some skinheads burning a woman alive with gasoline simply because she was a refugee from somewhere east of the Mediterranean. It was just some new wave of hatred that had broken out.

That was a long time ago. But obviously hatred and intolerance still smolders just about anywhere people are a little too comfortable and a little too ignorant to fill their minds with the more obvious questions, like: how can I help the victims?

Also really bizarre is the religious hypocrisy. In the Bible, the only time Jesus threatens people (with being thrown into a lake of fire) it is for their refusal to render aid to "these, the least of my brethren".

Also: pretty bizarre, isn't it, that he addressed this to atheists?

Of course, this is Photizo. We have to lower our expectations.
 
That's a bit too simplistic. People who have no loyalty or shared culture with the country they inhabit aren't going to be the best citizens. Obviously, it's wrong to attack people personally for this, but it's not a problem that will go away by addressing it's symptoms (right wing attacks).
 
When it comes to cultural Islamist Islam, there's a great deal of variation from country to country. Pew did a large-scale survey of this in 2013:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

At one extreme we have places like Albania, where only 12% of Muslims support making Shariah the law of the land. Of this 12%, 25% (3% of Albanian Muslims) support stoning adulterers to death. 8% (1% of Albanian Muslims) support death for apostasy.

At the other extreme are places like Pakistan. 84% of Pakistani Muslims support making Shariah the law of the land. Of this 84%, 89% (75% of Pakistani Muslims) support death by stoning for adulterers. 76% (64% of Pakistani Muslims) support death for apostasy.

One of the sources of Europe's current difficulties is that they never gave any consideration to these kind of differences when crafting their immigration policies. They just assumed that Muslims are Muslims and that Islam is a private and personal religion like Christianity and Judaism have evolved so painfully into being. So we find some European countries with Muslim communities drawn disproportionately from the most hard-line places. That's one (of several) reasons why there's so much Islamist radicalism in the Muslim community in Great Britain, a community which is disproportionally of Pakistani origin. It didn't help that Europe has often given political asylum to radical Islamist clerics who were in danger of arrest by secularist military dictatorships such as Mubarak's in Egypt. Then European host governments act surprised when these clerics' local mosques turn into international centers of Islamist militancy.
 
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Oh, the same Christians that are getting crucified and beheaded by Muslim extremists?

You mean the ones kidnapped and held in spider holes without trial, under the pretense called "extraordinary rendition", or the ones tortured and murdered at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib?

So by your logic every Westerner is a perpetrator of those crimes and deserves to be beheaded, but only after being sexually tortured.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. I see you are also stepping around that lake of fire by tending to "these, the least of my brethren." Or as Jesus also said: "Hypocrite!"
End of my input into this ignorant and once again, very anti Christian thread.
Yeah telling you to tend to "these the least of my brethren" is anti-christian.

Hey don't let the door slam on your hypocritical ass on the way out. But don't worry-when you wake up in ICU from your next heart attack you will be surrounded by Muslims and atheists, racing to save you from that lake of fire. And since their parents never interfered with their science education they will do a very good job.

And when all the sanctimonious dinosaurs die off the world will give a collective sigh of relief.

To set that mood let me break into the Atheist "Hosanna in Excelsis Deo" ( fundies know this as "Our God is an Awesome God") to be sung right after the breaking of the bread and the chugging of the wine:



So the other premise here, is that if you are not a xenophobic fundie then you're an atheist. What a hoot. But don't worry, nobody cares. It's not like they are going to pull out your feeding tube, not until Jesus is taking you to his lake of fire.

Just don't be surprised if no one cries at your funeral.
 
May you live long and prosper.

I think the premise here is to blame the victims. It's one of the traits of psychopaths, which often includes religiosity. And of course Photizo evidently doesn't care what European Muslims, or their relatives forced to live elsewhere - think about his concerns. That lack of empathy adds to the score on the psychopathy checklist.

I have worked with asylum seekers who arrived in the US tortured, maimed, raped and even shot. Funny, their religion really never came up.

Also what you said above about the neo fascists in Europe: once, when on business in Germany I noticed graffiti was showing up everywhere, "foreigners go home", and just as I got to my hotel to unwind and ask WTF? I turned on the tube and there was a story of some skinheads burning a woman alive with gasoline simply because she was a refugee from somewhere east of the Mediterranean. It was just some new wave of hatred that had broken out.

That was a long time ago. But obviously hatred and intolerance still smolders just about anywhere people are a little too comfortable and a little too ignorant to fill their minds with the more obvious questions, like: how can I help the victims?

Also really bizarre is the religious hypocrisy. In the Bible, the only time Jesus threatens people (with being thrown into a lake of fire) it is for their refusal to render aid to "these, the least of my brethren".

Also: pretty bizarre, isn't it, that he addressed this to atheists?

Of course, this is Photizo. We have to lower our expectations.
I think one of the most hypocritical aspects of this discussion about the browning of Europe and the dangers of Muslims and all the rest of the bigoted claptrap they have come out with, that white supremacists have killed more people in Europe than Muslims have with acts of terror in supposedly trying to impose their beliefs in Europe. Including the slaughtering of 69 children who were trapped on a small island and had no way to escape..

Not only that, in all of their terror about the effects of Islam on society and the destruction of white European culture by, well, the browning of Europe, and their complaints about the negative effects Islam as a religion has on Europe, they also ignore the fact that the Catholic Church and its priests abuse on hundreds and hundreds of children across Europe, their influence on laws in Ireland that have seen a woman die during a miscarriage because it was illegal to treat her since it was a protracted miscarriage and to treat her would be to apparently 'abort' the foetus, to having a brain dead woman virtually kept on life support as her body began to decompose around her foetus, but because the laws were so fucked up because they are influenced by the church, they couldn't take her off life support without risking being charged in Ireland..

These atrocities are apparently fine because well, they are not contributing to the browning or destruction of European culture... And those Christian organisations that protect and allow abuse to occur assimilate well in Europe, so that's all okay!

As I said, the hypocrisy of the anti Muslim crowd never ceases to amuse and disgust in equal measures.
 
Birth rates across the board indicate that much of Europe will likely become islamic in the not too distant future.
Have you looked at the history of Europe? They have no respect for other people's religions. They spent 100 years fighting the rise of Protestantism, and those people are Christians! They tried several times to exterminate the Jews, and came rather close to succeeding during my lifetime!

There's already a strong animosity toward Islam and Muslims in Europe, going back to the Crusades. If the Muslims start to gain any significant political power, you can be 100% sure that the "good Christian people" of Europe will annihilate them--or at least crowd them into concentration camps.

Additionally, the same can be said of islam as a political/religious force worldwide i.e. becoming the dominant religion in the world. If you woke up one day and found yourself in a situation where you were being given a choice to convert to islam or die, which would you choose?
As a third-generation atheist, I find all religions equally repugnant.

There have been many times and places in history when Islamic societies were fair and tolerant. In the Ottoman Empire, the Jews were treated better than any other place they ever lived, with the exceptions of China and the USA. And even in the USA, within my lifetime, many upscale communities had "gentlemen's agreements" among the residents, promising that they would never sell or rent to Jews.
 
That stuff is not OK, but it's beside the point. They are separate issues.
Actually they aren't. If you worry about Islam's influence in Europe, as in the religion's influence, then you frankly, it is hypocritical to not worry about religions that actually are having a negative influence over the Governing of European countries and even their health care. And if you worry about the supposed violence of Muslims because of their religious beliefs, how can you ignore the fact that it isn't Muslims, but white supremacists who have committed more violent crimes? Even if, in desperation, you are going to whine about how Muslims dress, have you seen how the majority of white supremacists dress? Combats, shaved heads, tattoos of white supremacist symbols all over themselves..

And if you are going to complain about the erosion of European culture, why is no one complaining about American's making such huge inroads into the culture of Europe? From your music, your manner of dress, your food appearing everywhere, the way you speak, your movies, books.. All having invaded, influenced and replaced European culture in ways that many possibly do not even realise.

If people were truly concerned about the loss of European culture, then to ignore all of this and focus solely on Muslims... Then again, the OP is by a white supremacist. His biggest concern is not with the culture so much as with 'there be brown people'.
 
I don't care about a specific European culture, I'm more worried about the cohesiveness of these small nations when the welfare state no longer becomes viable and people have to rely on each other. Lack of a common culture is a weakness no matter which nation I'm talking about. Cultures can certainly add to a country, unless those cultures insist on being almost entirely separate. Then they become a liability and a problem. Why should my taxes support some fucker who thinks me and my culture should be destroyed? It's a recipe for civil war if the numbers are equal, and genocide if they are not. While I'm in favor generally of immigration, I think the rate has to be controlled in order to favor assimilation.
 
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