Question for Atheists

[Photizo]

Birth rates across the board indicate that much of Europe will likely become islamic in the not too distant future. Additionally, the same can be said of islam as a political/religious force worldwide i.e. becoming the dominant religion in the world. If you woke up one day and found yourself in a situation where you were being given a choice to convert to islam or die, which would you choose?

 

[Seattle]

I'd just go back to sleep.

 

[davewhite04]

Birth rates across the board indicate that much of Europe will likely become islamic in the not too distant future. Additionally, the same can be said of islam as a political/religious force worldwide i.e. becoming the dominant religion in the world. If you woke up one day and found yourself in a situation where you were being given a choice to convert to islam or die, which would you choose?

Do you realize that it is a group of extremists that are making up their own translation of script and acting like the Muslims in the crusades?

Maybe one day there will only be one religion, or even no religion at all.

 

[spidergoat]

(Pretend to) convert to Islam, of course. But statistics can't necessarily be extrapolated like that.

 

[cosmictraveler]

I'll be waiting for them.

 

[Cris]

There is no way to fight back if you don't exist. Death is never a good option. Simply lie convincingly and continue to believe whatever you wish - which is what people always do under subjugation.

Several things will likely prevent the given scenario.

1. As more Muslims integrate into European society they will become more affluent, and affluence correlates strongly with lower birth rates - i.e. their birth rate will slow down.

2. Europeans have been increasingly moving steadily towards a more secular perspective these past few decades so more Muslims will become exposed to the more enlightened secular attitudes.

3. Increased European integration will also mean vastly improved education and that correlates strongly with decreased religious beliefs.

4. Over the next few decades as neuroscience moves closer to a better understanding of consciousness, and if that can be communicated more widely, then the soul/spirit concept will eventually be seen as simple nonsense and the duality concept necessary for maintaining religious beliefs will collapse.

Put all those events together and religion in general will eventually fade into insignificance and become just a very violent and bloody historical curiosity.

 

[Photizo]

(Pretend to) convert to Islam, of course.

How long do you think you'd be able to 'keep up appearances'?

 

[Photizo]

Cris, muslims tend not to integrate...rather than adopting the customs and mindsets of the countries into which they emigrate, the host culture finds itself more and more adapting to them. Islam is both political and religious, but primarily a political/legal system regulating the lives of believers and non believers under its jurisdiction.

 

[Sarkus]

How long do you think you'd be able to 'keep up appearances'?

If you are implying that "keeping up appearances" is not really an option then the question you raised in the OP is moot, as I do not think one can simply choose to believe in God, especially not at the end of the barrel of a gun. At best one can carry out the practical requirements of the religion, give lip service to the religion. But actual belief? No. Any more than you can choose to believe that a Steven Seagal film might be worthy of an Oscar.

So you offer a false dilemma, as you have actually only offered one option.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Birth rates across the board indicate that much of Europe will likely become Islamic in the not too distant future.

Can you provide some facts and figures to support this argument?

 

[Photizo]

If you are implying that "keeping up appearances" is not really an option...

I'm not implying that. I'm implying what you posted: "At best one can carry out the practical requirements of the religion, give lip service to the religion."

So you offer a false dilemma, as you have actually only offered one option.

Maybe you've created the false dilemma by making it consist of what you thought I might be implying. I'm seriously asking atheists what they would choose if things eventually came to such a point. I'm sure that during Islam's long history of subjugating people/countries that quite a few chose to simply convert to save their life. However, such a conversion I would think would bring many changes in their lives externally regardless of whether they believed in allah and muhhamed or not.

 

[Cris]

muslims tend not to integrate...rather than adopting the customs and mindsets of the countries into which they emigrate, the host culture finds itself more and more adapting to them. Islam is both political and religious, but primarily a political/legal system regulating the lives of believers and non believers under its jurisdiction.

Much like an unsuspecting virus. I see a lot of that in Britain when I visit - a desire to be tolerant of others rather than an enforcement of culture - a mistake perhaps. But I also see many young Muslims in Britain adopt much of British culture.

Europe has many strong cultures and traditions, I don't think they will be so easily overwhelmed as you suggest. Although the Islamic way is discordant with much of European culture. It looks like a lot of turmoil ahead but I cannot see existing cultures eradicated in favor of Islam.

I'd like to think that most people are rational to some degree and Islam currently bears all the marking of being 1000 years out of date, a religion from an ancient archaic time of intolerance and authoritarianism - the more developed and advanced societies are not likely to want to go backwards and should be able to resist the virus.

 

[Cris]

Can you provide some facts and figures to support this argument?

I don't think it matters. It's a proposal of a nightmare scenario, whether plausible or not, it is a good debate starter - a what if....

 

[Photizo]

I agree that it looks as though turmoil is ahead. The question is whether there will be the will/courage to enforce host culture in the face of inevitable accusations leveled by the muslims. Observing current approaches to dealing with islam seems to indicate that this will/courage simply isn't present.

"Islam currently bears all the marking of being 1000 years out of date, a religion from an ancient archaic time..."

Again, its really much more than a religion, it is essentially an all encompassing political/legal system regulating life's details for believer and non-believer alike. It doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon, indeed that it's influence is spreading is quite observable.

 

[spidergoat]

How long do you think you'd be able to 'keep up appearances'?

As long as it takes. Just like atheists in Muslim countries do now.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I find it very hard to speculate about any kind of future for all humans on this world. In the not to distant future say the next 100 years things are going to get very tough for everybody. When the religious of any faith start looking forward to securing the best possible afterlife we are all in trouble. As far as your question I will do the very best I can to continue living for as long as possible. The way religions work when they are expanding is they put the fear of not being a believer into everyone. The current generation will have a lot of fakers. However they will bring their kids up in that faith for there own good. So the second & third generations will become stronger believers. I wonder how many atheist go to church with their religious loved ones? I'm betting it's more than we might think.

 

[Cris]

Again, its really much more than a religion, it is essentially an all encompassing political/legal system regulating life's details for believer and non-believer alike.

Yes but so was Christianity for most of its history. Even in the USA as recently as the early 20th century, atheists were not permitted to be witnesses in a court of law. Kings and rulers throughout Christian times asserted that their right to rule is given to them from God, etc. And without that perceived religious backing they soon lost power. Even now it is difficult to get elected in the USA unless one professes a strong belief in God, however, in much of Europe now if a candidate professes a strong religious belief they will almost certainly not be elected.

Islam is currently where Christianity used to be, and not so long ago. The increasing rise of secularism around the world is unlikely to subside and Islam will need to adapt/integrate/evolve, or be outlawed or sidelined. Some of Islamic teachings will be tolerated, but political control in a modern European country? I don't see that as a remote possibility.

 

[Yazata]

Birth rates across the board indicate that much of Europe will likely become islamic in the not too distant future.

In a generation or so, I expect that Muslims will outnumber the European locals in particular areas where Muslim immigrants congregate, probably some of the larger cities. That's going to cause historic changes. What will France become when Paris has more Muslim residents than French?

The day is coming when large segments of the population will be angrily insisting that historic French culture has no more standing in France, or Dutch culture in the Netherlands, than Islamic culture does in either of those places.

Additionally, the same can be said of islam as a political/religious force worldwide i.e. becoming the dominant religion in the world.

It might look that way in Western Europe, which is being flooded by Muslim immigrants. I doubt if they will have the same kind of success in places like China.

If you woke up one day and found yourself in a situation where you were being given a choice to convert to islam or die, which would you choose?

I don't see it getting to that point for a long time, if ever. What's more likely is Europe going 'multicultural', where historic European cultures stop being the cultures of entire European countries and peoples, and become just more of the multiple cultures represented in Europe. When that happens, Western culture will lose its historic homeland and its heart.

So what I expect to happen in Europe isn't so much an ISIS-style forceable 'Islamification or death' as it is the growth of states-within-states in a number of European countries. Muslims will end up having their own schools, their own Islamic courts with jurisdiction over cases concerning Muslims, and so on. It's almost inevitable, as millions of Muslims move to Europe in search of a wealthier lifestyle, but with no intention of giving up their own cultures or assimilating. As their numbers grow, so will their power and their ability to institutionalize that culture alongside the cultures that are already there.

 

[Bells]

I wouldn't be too concerned. By the time that happened, most would be dead due to the effects of over population and possibly climate change.

So you are all stressing about something that isn't likely to happen. You'll all be dead by then regardless. And hopefully your offspring and descendants will not follow in your tradition of being bigoted, before they die of starvation or to the weather of course.

 

[Photizo]

in much of Europe now if a candidate professes a strong religious belief they will almost certainly not be elected.

It is conceivable that growing numbers of muslim voters might change that and then who knows what might be implemented.