Q'ran or Bible is more reliable as the word of God?

Michael said:
the oldest Torah online? How old is it? That would be interesting to see.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3062895,00.html

Oldest Torah texts

But the two 7th century BCE silver scrolls containing excerpts from the Bible have pride of place in the exhibition. The valuable scrolls, which are several hundred years older than the Dead Sea Scrolls, contain the oldest Torah texts in existence.

They were discovered in 1979 in the Hinnom Valley near Jerusalem by Israeli archaeologist Gabriel Barkay from Tel Aviv’s Bar-Ilan University.

After three years of meticulous work to unroll the scrolls and conserve the frail silver containers, the material was made available for scientific research. The nearly invisible writing was analysed by Bruce Zuckerman, a professor of Semitic languages at the University of Southern California who had previously worked on the deciphering of Dead Sea Scrolls.

Using a sophisticated digital photography technique, he revealed the scroll’s contents, which included a passage from the fourth book of the Old Testament and the so-called Aaronite priestly blessing.

Barkay said the discovery of this early biblical inscription is an important argument supporting an earlier dating of the Bible.

"I can at least say that these verses existed in the 7th century, the time of the Prophet Jeremiah,” Barkay said. This would make the texts hundreds of years older than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

YHWH_SILVER-SCROLLS.jpg
 
S.A.M. said:
Why do you think Arabs need a Roman Emperor from the 2 century BC with unevidenced Arab roots to feel better about themselves?
Do you believe people need to abandon their native roots for a white culture to feel good? Whats so great about Philips 5 and a half years of rule in Syria that trumps Mohammed's union of the entire Middle East and his influence over a fifth of the world? Logically speaking, the entire western world is under the same ideology that Islam represents. The Romans are passe, extinct, gone, kaput. They are yesterdays old news. The time for empires who threw Christians to the lions is passe. And Philip the Arab is a neglible and irrelevant portion of this past. The glory of Arab conquests far surpasses those of the Romans, because unlike the Romans, they left it after 100 years and yet, their culture still persists 1300 years after they left. And has reached far far beyyond what they may have imagined it would. Today, every person in the world knows Mohammed. You don't have to remind any Arab who he is. Nor any non-Arab.He is inarguably the most influential man in all history. And he is indisputably Arab.
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The glory of Arab Conquests huh SAM. Why? Why is it glorious? Where the Xian Crusades "Glorius" SAM? How about the Mongolian Golden Horde - the size of their empire far surpasses the Arabs. Or how about the Glorious European Colonization of the entire planet THAT far far far FAR surpasses them all many times over and has sense shaped the destiny of every human living today.

You see SAM, I for one think the days of glorifying murdering other people fast approaching passe'.

That's part of it sure. I think glorifing the Islamic crusades is passe'.
Get SAM? Simple enough for you? Can you digest that?


Second of all "Mohammad" did not unify the ME. Jesus SAM, get ahold of yourself - pull your head out. A very militarily clever General did that and you well know he didn't lead Muslim. Because there were no "Muslims" at that time. You are the one who posted that in another Patricia Crone link. (seriously - do you read those?).


Lastly, history SAM, is important. It's important to know where we came from to know where we are going. It's not "Glorious" to conqueror people SAM. Yes, we can look back and study it, but, it's time to move forward. Because if we continue to "glorify" the murdering of other people, or belittle their murder by suggesting it didn't happen, then we are all doomed.

And get this SAM, it's not going to be Islam or Muslims or you who are sitting on the top. It will probably be some religious kook who makes a virus and wipes out most of humanity.

anyway, war it is,
Michael
 
Why? Why is it glorious?
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Huh, you have to ask? Whats the difference between Mohammed and the Romans? Mohammed is still relevant to a billion living people after 1400 years. Thats glory.
 
S.A.M. said:
Huh, you have to ask? Whats the difference between Mohammed and the Romans? Mohammed is still relevant to a billion living people after 1400 years. Thats glory.
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Roman culture is relevant to every single person on Earth. That's even more glorious. Your an Indian, how do you like your Roman based Republic and Government?

I understand the power of myth, and that is what Mohammad is after all. That's fine. But guess what? Arab people also have a non-mythical history that pre-dates Mohammad. And all your kicking and whinnying isn't going to change that.
 
It must be sad for you. Can you imagine if we in "West" or in the USA prattled on about the "glory" of conquering the indigenous, building cities and converting them to Xiantiy. See, we have progressed past that SAM. It's a higher cultural state that you apparently haven't reached. Just because you are stuck back with your "glorious" Islamic crusades doesn't mean there isn't something better. You may be stuck there but the Arabs I talk to are very very interested to learn about another part of Arab history no one never told them about. And while you may think of Philip I Arabs in negative terms - they do not. It's just they were never told about all the accomplishments Arabs made and how many Arabs lived in Roma and Italy and England. It's nice for them to finally have a shared peace of history. And you know, I think that just pisses you off.
Poor little SAM. Arabs have a "white" history. One they find fascinating and LOVE to hear and learn about. Boo Hoo poor SAM.

Haaa! I love it! And so do Arabs. We both have a glorious shared history with no Islam and no SAM ... :p
 
You may be stuck there but the Arabs I talk to are very very interested to learn about another part of Arab history no one never told them about.
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You meet some very strange Arabs. I learned almost everything about Arabs from Arabs.
 
And all of them in Australia. Normal indeed.

Do they ever wonder at your interest in Arabs and Muslims?

Have you shared your wiping your ass with the Quran story with them?

See, we have progressed past that SAM.
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Indeed, your "progress" is painfully obvious to all who suffer it.

Especially in the Arab world.
 
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S.A.M. said:
Indeed, your "progress" is painfully obvious to all who suffer it.Especially in the Arab world.
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Oh really now? Just two posts back your typing away about the Glorious Conquest of Islam without giving two craps about the Persians who suffered through it.


As for using the Qur'an for toilet paper, why wouldn't it. It's just a book to me. And the point is people are MURDERED, real live humans SAM, MURDERED by Muslim for less! What? Did you already forget about the little girl who was roasted alive in her bedroom by a mob of Muslims defending the "Glorious" Qur'an.

Yeah, it's pretty sad that we have to get to the point of discussing using a book as toilet paper because in this modern day and age people are buring alive little children, old men, innocent women - all because of a rumor about "The" Qu'ran.

Which goes right back to the thread topic. SAM thinks the Qur'an is this magically Perfect book. Well no, it's a book that is no more or less valid than Dietetics.

meh...
 
One interesting thing about Philip I Arabs, unlike Mohammad and later, after he died, his generals. Philip made PEACE with the Persians.

Whose the better role model SAM? The Glorious Islamic General who terrorized the Persians or the humble Roman Emperor who made peace with the Persians? Which is really the more Glorious person SAM?
 
How come no one is talking about the bible ?.
The thread is to compare the two books .
Although no one can deny that the bible and the Qu'oran are very similar they still have fundamental differences .
 
mike47 said:
How come no one is talking about the bible ?.
The thread is to compare the two books .
Although no one can deny that the bible and the Qu'oran are very similar they still have fundamental differences .
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The GodHead wrote two messages. One for the initiate of the inner mystery this was the true meaning and was coded. Another message was for the layperson.

Why did the GodHead do this?

Simple, because the code preserves the "true" meaning. ONLY an initiate with the key to the code will know the truth. The reason why this was done is because there are a LOT of people who claim to be Prophets of the GodHead. Some are VERY convincing. The only way to know if they a true or not is to look and see if they have the keys to the code. If not, then they are an impostor.

The layperson still receives GodHead wisdom and more importantly - praises the GodHead, fulfilling the sole reason for their creation.


The Bible retains SOME of the code. But, most of the keys have been lost (not all).

I do not know if the Qur'an has any of the code?
An interesting search would be one of the codes we have a key to - the parable of 153 fish. Is this code in the Qur'an?


So, if you were on a hunt to find truth in the GodHead, you'd want to go to the resource with the true code. For example, the parable of the 153 fish exists in the Bible. So, that's a good place to look for your answers - it's MORE RELIABLE AS THE WORD OF GOD. It's the whole reason the GodHead wrote in code. If you went to the Qur'an, and the parable is there, BUT IT IS MISSING THE CODE - well, then it's a waste of your time to read. You'll be sent in the wrong direction.

The people who made up this bullshit were clever. They ran Empires that existed in one form or another for 5000 years. BUT the truth is, only when they were polytheistic where they anywhere near the claims of their GodHead. It may even be they recognized the dangers of monotheism and invented code to prevent people from using monotheism the way it has since been used. Since the Gnostic Xians were wiped out by the Catholic... well, as you know, it's been some sort of religious war ever since...

Well, there you go,
Michael
 
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While the question: Is the Qur'an or Bible more reliable as the word of God? to most level headed people seems innocent enough.

However, for people who belong to the cult that believes, truly and uncompromisingly believes, "their" book is the more reliable, hell it's "perfect" (a belief shared by some on thie board) - well, they will kill for this belief.

I know, it seems crazy doesn't it? But that's exactly what happens in the "real world". It's just another in a long long long line of examples of why such ideology is unenlightened and bigoted.


Reported today on BBC
On a street in the small Punjabi town of Gojra, house after house stands gutted and looted. One home in particular is the focus of attention. The windows and doors are gone, what is left of the furniture lies gnarled inside, and some of the ceilings have collapsed. People are peering into a small bedroom at the back of the building. It is from here that the charred bodies of six members of the Hameed family, from Pakistan's minority Christian community, were recovered. The youngest of the dead was four-year-old Mousa.

He described how an angry Muslim mob came through the area, known here as the Christian Colony. "I think there were thousands," he said. "My elderly father went out to see what was happening and they shot and killed him. We were all shocked and crying. Before we knew it, they were breaking into the house." Mr Hameed explained how he and nine other members of the family hid in the bedroom as the house was over-run. "We could hear them smashing everything and dividing our belongings amongst themselves," he said. "Then they started beating on the door saying they would teach us a lesson and burn us alive."
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This is exactly what happens when you brainwash people to believe their magic book is "Perfect" and everyone else's religious book is "Corrupted". These people murdered over a silly book! Actually murdered people!?!?! Other human beings!!! Small children. Old men. Innocent women. They were so filled with rage and hate and all of this hate came directly out of their twisted Intolerant ideology - Only their book is "Perfect".
 
I think the last 100 years of wars, most of which are essentially for secular reasons, have shown that people will kill for just about any reason. WWI, WWII, the Holocaust, the wars in Vietnam, Phillipines, Korea, the Soviet Union, Cambodia, the Afghan Soviet wars, the 3 invasions of Iraq, the current occupation of Afghanistan, the atheist establishment of the state of Israel against Jewish laws. We could go on and on.

In fact, one could safely say that religion seems to be the least likely reason anyone goes to war these days. Christianity is redundant [they piss on Jesus], Islam is hostage to puppet states and Jews have been taken over by atheists and "reform" movements. The coming wars of the world will have little to do with religion, they will be wars of secular/atheist ideologies competing with one another for supremacy. Hence the wars of politcal and economic ideologies, with, not surprisingly, democracies causing the maximum toll in both lives and property in other societies.
 
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S.A.M. said:
I think the last 100 years of wars, most of which are essentially for secular reasons, have shown that people will kill for just about any reason. WWI, WWII, the Holocaust, the wars in Vietnam, Phillipines, Korea, the Soviet Union, Cambodia, the Afghan Soviet wars, the 3 invasions of Iraq, the current occupation of Afghanistan, the atheist establishment of the state of Israel against Jewish laws. We could go on and on.

In fact, one could safely say that religion seems to be the least likely reason anyone goes to war these days. Christianity is redundant [they piss on Jesus], Islam is hostage to puppet states and Jews have been taken over by atheists and "reform" movements. The coming wars of the world will have little to do with religion, they will be wars of secular/atheist ideologies competing with one another for supremacy. Hence the wars of politcal and economic ideologies, with, not surprisingly, democracies causing the maximum toll in both lives and property in other societies.
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That does seem about right. However, there have been religious components to all of these wars. German Xians killing German Jews. Japanese Shinto forcing Koreans to worship The Japanese Emperor. Chinese Communist forced to pray to Mao. Tibetans forced into exile. Jews and Muslims killing one another left and right. Sunni and Shia murdering one another left and right. Irish Catholics and Protestants murdering one another left and right.

And this is an historic LULL in religious feuds! Before this Xian Europeans were utterly convinced that Xianity made them a superior. God was on their side, the earth and all in it was theirs by default.

There's as many reasons why people murder people as their are people. That's for sure.

It's all about what kind of societies we want to create. Ones that go to war or ones that do not. In a single generation we could wipe out all religious dogma and it'd still pop up in the next. So, given that WE create the dogma, why not create dogma that decreases the chances of people murdering other people? Why teach people that the Qur'an is the ONLY perfect book IF some people are going to murder Xians who say otherwise??? Why teach this SAM? It makes absolutely no sense. No sense at all. None. Zero. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by teaching intolerance. Why not start by teaching people that all religious books are equally as valid as the next? of course, to do that you'd probably have to scrap monotheism. .. . .
 
I'd say that your example doesn't work. When was the last time the Middle East went to war over religion? When was the last time a secular society did fior any reason? There is your answer.
 
Tell that to the Xians massacred last week. They feel it all the time. Every day. Year after year, generation after generation.

I'd also suggest that in the conflict between Jews and Muslims - religion is at the heart of it.


Monotheism, like it's cousin Racism, are integral parts of all these conflicts.
The ideology is: Us verses Them.
Your theology promotes this ideology - this line of reasoning. There are "People of the Book" and those that are not of the Book. You go your way, I go mine.
Instead of, hey, we're all humans.

Well Baron thinks like you so there you go. Maybe you two are right?

I see religion as having a purpose. If it can be better, then why not change it for the better? It's really simple SAM. It's the 21st century - there are much more modern and better ideologies. See SAM, you believe in Gods, I don't. I'm free to change my opinion. You're stuck. History suggests I'm on the winning side. As you should know, I'm not advocating atheism, I think most people do need religion. And it's good they have it. Lets make sure it's a religion that's good for humanity.
 
How many Xians? If more people are killed by democracies and secular societies than religious ones, do you recommend abandoning democracy and secularism as a model for society? Secular western societies currently occupy several countries, have created the third world as their market for labour and resources and use their knowledge and power to exploit millions of people every day through institutions where they hold decision making powers away from their victims. They use the maximum natural resources, have a society of waste that is unsustainable and require constant war and military efforts to obtain sufficient resources to keep up an exploitative standard of living. Should we then break up and dismantle this model as a failure in pure human terms?
 
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