Q'ran or Bible is more reliable as the word of God?

Michael said:
Scifes, there was no sarcasm in that last post.
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is that supposed to make it any better?
Much of the Bible was written in Greek. And while I can not remember, I think the Torah was also first written in Greek as it was the Greek Xians writing down that OT that first wrote it. I thought the Torah was written after the Bible?
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if torah was for the jews, then i think it came before the bible.




As for the Qur'an. There are only a handful of people who can read the oldest Qur'an
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that's shit, coming out of a bull.

the quran is the same, no such things as the old and the new, we are reading it now as it was 1400 years ago.

and even they don't agree as to what it means.
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let me teach you a lesson, actually a second lesson.

give me proof for what you're saying, just show me that you know what you're talking about.

I'm sure you are not one of those people! One expert says that the ONLY way to make sense of it is to read it as if it were written in Syriac.
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and you call that guy an EXPERT?
:geek:
:bawl:

what level of ignorance am i dealing with here?

Are you an expert in 7th century Arabic and Syriac?
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actually, i'm fairly sure i can teach your expert friend more than a thing or two.
 
i admit i'm not much sure of what i know, but i say it anyways, where's the contradiction?

maybe next time i shouldn't mention that i'm not so sure of what i'm saying when that's the case?
 
Michael said:
Opps wrong thread?:eek:

The Abrahamic God only knows Hebrew as I understand.
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Which to comprehend the OT; Moses was raised by Pharoah in pharoahs house (draw from water; deut 2)

And if HE (moses) wrote the first 5 books, then it seems correct it would have been in some egyptian language.

It seems until the arc is located; no one will know for sure.

(and that is just ONE sect)

as it seems all of mankind has a whole bunch of renditions of God.

ooooooooooops!

almost forgot; notice the quran is supposedly originated by Muhammad?

But muhammed never saw, read, wrote or was even alive when quran existed; as even within quran it shared he was illiterate (could not read or write).

kind of neat to see how diverse, reality is and what people believe

then to observe how many do believe in the reliability of their doctrine and what them few will do for it, is just scary!

eg.... israel intents to build a temple on the mount held by islam all based on beliefs. Kind of scary to realize that the globe will be affected by opinions of beliefs, in a nuclear age!
 
Bishadi said:
almost forgot; notice the quran is supposedly originated by Muhammad?

But muhammed never saw, read, wrote or was even alive when quran existed; as even within quran it shared he was illiterate (could not read or write).
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Who told you or where did you read that there was no Qu'oran when Muhammad was alive ?.
There was Qu'oran and it was recited by Muhammad and his followers at his time .
 
mike47 said:
Who told you or where did you read that there was no Qu'oran when Muhammad was alive ?.
There was Qu'oran and it was recited by Muhammad and his followers at his time .
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Lots' of reading.....

look up the history of quran

then perhaps read a bit on quran

007.158
YUSUFALI: Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no Allah save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

SHAKIR: Say: O people! surely I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, of Him Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He; He brings to life and causes to die therefore believe in Allah and His messenger, the Ummi Prophet who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him so that you may walk in the right way


note the three translations of the script to offer clarity

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/007.qmt.html


be certain i am versed in quran too



017.041
YUSUFALI: We have explained (things) in various (ways) in this Qur'an, in order that they may receive admonition, but it only increases their flight (from the Truth)!

PICKTHAL: We verily have displayed (Our warnings) in this Qur'an that they may take heed, but it increaseth them in naught save aversion.

SHAKIR: And certainly We have repeated (warnings) in this Quran that they may be mindful, but it does not add save to their aversion.


023.063
YUSUFALI: But their hearts are in confused ignorance of this; and there are, besides that, deeds of theirs, which they will (continue) to do,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, but their hearts are in ignorance of this (Qur'an), and they have other works, besides, which they are doing;
SHAKIR: Nay, their hearts are in overwhelming ignorance with respect to it and they have besides this other deeds which they do.



023.064
YUSUFALI: Until, when We seize in Punishment those of them who received the good things of this world, behold, they will groan in supplication!

PICKTHAL: Till when We grasp their luxurious ones with the punishment, behold! they supplicate.

SHAKIR: Until when We overtake those who lead easy lives among them with punishment, lo! they cry for succor.




nothing to preach about

cuz if you know the quran, the book says the 'truth' will appear as a 'second creation'

then all them old docs will fit quite nicely!
 
Gday,

Michael said:
That aside, I thought the Bible was written in Greek? I think the Torah was also first written in Greek. It was only written in Hebrew after Jews got worried the Xian had written it down (before Xianity, Jews didn't write down their magic book, that kept the power in the Priest class hands, and also allowed them to make modifications as each king saw fit).
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Not so.

The O.T. was written in Hebrew, (including the Torah,)
It was translated into Greek in 3rd C. BC (that's the "Septuagint".)

The N.T. was written in Greek.

K.
 
Gday,

Michael said:
Much of the Bible was written in Greek. And while I can not remember, I think the Torah was also first written in Greek as it was the Greek Xians writing down that OT that first wrote it. I thought the Torah was written after the Bible?
I really can't remember now... do you happen to know?
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Why on Earth don't you CHECK the facts Michael?

Do you actually know what the Torah is?
It's the first five books of the Bible.
The EARLIEST part of the Bible.
Written in Hebrew by the Jews many CENTURIES before the NT.

Could you be confusing it with the Talmud?


K.
 
Bishadi said:
almost forgot; notice the quran is supposedly originated by Muhammad?

But muhammed never saw, read, wrote or was even alive when quran existed; as even within quran it shared he was illiterate (could not read or write).

kind of neat to see how diverse, reality is and what people believe

then to observe how many do believe in the reliability of their doctrine and what them few will do for it, is just scary!

eg.... israel intents to build a temple on the mount held by islam all based on beliefs. Kind of scary to realize that the globe will be affected by opinions of beliefs, in a nuclear age!
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I absolutely 100% agree. Imagine, we live in an age where people can create deadly biological viruses. We've made them to wipe out rabbits before. Human aren't much different than rabbits. I remember a post here once that went along the lines of "We'll breed the Jews into submission". IF people feel threatened by a population explosion, then someone, somewhere, will make a virus that wipes out that threat.

If it takes out most of humanity, then it was all part of "God's Plan". Armageddon.


Scary poop.


That aside, it's interesting to note that Mohammad never saw, read, touched and even thought about making the Qur'an. He never imagined a Qur'an. The Qur'an was less than nothing to him. Most Muslims fail to realize this.
 
Kapyong said:
Gday,



Not so.

The O.T. was written in Hebrew, (including the Torah,)
It was translated into Greek in 3rd C. BC (that's the "Septuagint".)

The N.T. was written in Greek.

K.
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Thanks for that Kapyong,
Was the OT first written by Greek Jews? Or orthodox Jews?
And just out of curiosity can we see the oldest Torah online? How old is it? That would be interesting to see.
 
Kapyong said:
Gday,



Why on Earth don't you CHECK the facts Michael?

Do you actually know what the Torah is?
It's the first five books of the Bible.
The EARLIEST part of the Bible.
Written in Hebrew by the Jews many CENTURIES before the NT.

Could you be confusing it with the Talmud?


K.
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Actually, over time I'm slowly forgetting :eek:... too busy.
Yes, I may be thinking of the Talmud.

It seem like I read somewhere that the Torah (or Talmud) were written in response to the Greek Jews writing the Bible (including the OT). Prior to that it simply wasn't written down.

Anyway, it's easy enough to clear up. What's the date of the oldest Talmud? The oldest Torah? The oldest NT? The oldest OT?

anyone know?
Michael
 
scifes said:
actually, i'm fairly sure i can teach your expert friend more than a thing or two.
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Hi scifes,

Maybe you can. Lets start with something very simple and not all that old. Translate this:


066049C.jpeg
 
I think you have a lot to learn about the Arabic language. Anyone who can read an Arabic newspaper [no didactic marks] can translate the above

The first line is easily read as hasbiallahu la ilaha illa hua illahi tawakaltu huwal arshul azim

Translation: God is sufficient unto me (there is no god but he), in him I have put my trust and his is the power over all the heavens [loose translation]
 
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That's from the UNSCO site. They also have some nice looking ancient poetry. I'll look for it, then I have to work....
 
Perhaps instead of ancient poetry or Arabic written for the non-native reader, you should look at original Arabic writing, written for an by Arabs

Like a newspaper:

19july.gif
 
UNSCO has a whole CD ROM.

The sad thing, to me, is that such a divisive thing has been made out of something that otherwise is quite beautiful. Arabs were not backwards meat heads who buried their female children in the sand and roamed the desert looking for plunder. Oh, I'm sure some were but many were poets. Some lives in cities, some didn't. An Arab was the Emperor of Rome. Some Arabs were monotheists others polytheists. It's too bad Muslims weren't so fraking brainwashed to see that Islam and the Qur'an are just like any other religion and any other religions book. To weight to good along with the evil.

I'm sure Arab poets of the time understood. Maybe we'll stumble upon a poem that says as much?


meh... that aside, from my initial Xian upbringing, and coming to understand where Xianity came from, the cultures it is derived from - well, it's probably why I love history. To look back at the Gods and Goddesses and appreciate and understand where beliefs are based. I wonder: Is it possible for a Muslim to look at the Sansa' fragments and realize the early Qur'an was partly composed by Arab Xians, is mix of pre-Mohammad poetry, is partly based on polythiesm? I do not think so. Concepts like "last" Prophets and "worlds only perfect" something or other seem to physcially stunt their intellectual growth. I don't mean it in a negative way, but, in a sad way. You know, scifes is over in another thread telling me the Bible is corrupt and the Qur'an IS self evidently written by God (well it's perfect unlike the Bible)- whether I realize it or not! :S

Maybe some day Muslims will get it? These fragments I think will be part of that.

If you want to translate them, that'd be cool.

100090C.jpeg


011354C.jpeg


105096C.jpeg



shit... I got to get back to work...
 
I think you also need to learn a lot about Arabic. The Quranic script was invented to make it easier to disseminate the knowledge of the Quran.

There is no pre-Islamic written history of the Arabs although the Kufic khatt [the calligraphy later developed in Kufah for the Quran] is 100 years older than Islam. I should know, Indians have thousands of years of history of trading with Arab merchants.

The Kufic script itself is highly flexible

http://www.socialfiction.org/img/sqkufic.jpg
 
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