Q'ran or Bible is more reliable as the word of God?

[Michael]

Perhaps instead of ancient poetry or Arabic written for the non-native reader, you should look at original Arabic writing, written for an by Arabs

Like a newspaper:

*sigh* it's not about that. It's about understanding where we come from. Part of that is the realization the Qur'an didn't just drop out of the sky and was written by men just like every other peace of human literature.

I truly hope that coming to this realization will help people respect and appreciate all the other religions. Instead of the US versus THEM that's set up they'll realize hey, we're no better and no worse and actually just the same as them.

Which is really interesting when you view the world's religions.


meh... we'll fraken breed ourselves into oblivion before any thing close to that comes to pass... more wars it is then. tally hoo....

 

[Michael]

There is no pre-Islamic written history of the Arabs. I should know, Indians have thousands of years of history of trading with Arab merchants

SAM, yes there is.


anyway, you know, I understand those black people who just finally toss their hands up and say f*ck it. white people are going to think being whites is better than being black. that's they way they think so why bother? sure, once in while you'll come across a white person that respects blacks - but it isn't often.

just flow with the stream and see where it goes because yup once in awhile an Obama does pop.


Yup SAM, you want to think the Qur'an dropped out of Allah arse and landed in Mohammad's lap. Go for it. I really don't want to waste any more of either of our times crapping on about it. I think we are both tired of going in circles and it's not really doint either of us any favors.

We can still debate in the I hate the USA thread

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM, yes there is.

I don't think ignorance is a point of view. Substituting fact for opinios based on ignorance is not likely to lead anywhere [it will lead somewhere, but not really a place anyone wants to go to]. You've shown time and again that you replace historical facts with what is agreed upon as fiction by historians to fulfill some kind of perverse ideological viewpoint.

Perhaps Mohammed will enlighten you:

He who indulges in a task without proper knowledge will deteriorate rather than improve the case.

 

[Michael]

S.A.M.

You wrote:
There is no pre-Islamic written history of the Arabs. I should know something sometiung...

Now you're writing about a place were some Arabs may have lived. Arabia. A very very VERY big difference.


not that it matters. you probably like the idea that Arabs were backwards mongrels that were only civilized though because of the Qur'an which dropped from heaven and landed on Mohmammad lap.


You may be interested in Philippus I Arabs.

Philip has the nickname "the Arab" because he had family who had originated in the Arabian peninsula, believed to be distant descendants of the prestigious Baleed family of Aleppo... blah blah blah

Arabs lived as far away as England.... but, meh... I don't care. You like your bubble so stay in it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Now you're writing about a place were some Arabs may have lived. Arabia. A very very VERY big difference....You like your bubble so stay in it.

I don't know about other Arabs, but but the above responses here look incredibly ignorant to anyone versed in the history and language [and I don't even consider myself an expert]. The Arabic language was spread to other parts after the first madrassa was built, a century after Islam, in Morocco. Thats when the parts outside Arabia were Arabised.This is a very simple and easy to look up fact and does not require any special training in Arabic literature or history. Pre-Islamic Moroccans and Tunsians did not consider themselves Arabs anymore than pre-colonial Aboriginals considered themselves as Australians or Judeo-Christians.

Another demonstration which is incredibly ignorant to ANY native Arab speaker, is your constant parading of didactic marks or their absence there of in older Qurans as a contentious issue of validity. The Kufic script with didactic remarks was codified after Arabic was spread to the non-Arabs, through madrassas in the Uthmanian empire. But basic Arabic itself is without the same marks and has always been. To infer from pronounciation marks written only in the Quran that it is somehow a fabrication is like showing some one a sample of the IPA as proof that the English language has changed.

Most Arabs are too polite to say anything upfront, but they would roll in the aisles at your ignorance after you left.

You're confusing an addition of pronounciation marks for non-native speakers as the equivalent of olde English. All that proves is that you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[mike47]

Gday,



Why on Earth don't you CHECK the facts Michael?

Do you actually know what the Torah is?
It's the first five books of the Bible.
The EARLIEST part of the Bible.
Written in Hebrew by the Jews many CENTURIES before the NT.

Could you be confusing it with the Talmud?


K.

I just wonder myself why not ???!.

 

[S.A.M.]

I just wonder myself why not ???!.

He's not really interested in the facts. The above post on didactic marks is not for his benefit, since I have a memory of having said it at least twice before to him in this forum. Yet he continues with his false representations, so I have to conclude that truth has a relative value for him. Or he suffers from premature senile dementia and has no memory of having already asked and gotten responses.

 

[mike47]

He's not really interested. The above post on didactic marks is not for his benefit, since I have a memory of having said it at least twice before to him in this forum. Yet he continues with his false representations, so I have to conclude that truth has a relative value for him.

He is always attacking Muslims and I just wonder why .

 

[S.A.M.]

Who knows? All I know is that he represents fiction as fact and expects to be taken seriously.

 

[Michael]

S.A.M.

Your's in the perfect example of what's wrong - this is one of the reason shit is so messed up for Arabs. You completely deny Arabs had any sort of history or civilization or culture before Islam was invented. To me, that is bullshit. It's why Arabs have such difficulty moving forward and progressing past Islam - because to do so means they have no culture. Hence we hear oxymoronic statements like "Islamic Math" or "Islamic Science" or "Islamic Golden Age".


YES, there was an Arab Roman Emperor and he ruled the Greatest Empire of the time and did so successfully for almost half a century. Arabs were poets. Arabs were doctors. Arabs were artists. They can be proud of this history whether you want them to be or do not want them to be. They should be. It should be taught to them.

meh.....

Look you don't get it or you're in a mood again and want to argue. You get in these moods where you just don't want to agree and then you jump into a thread blow off steam and you're fine for awhile again. Everyone does it - that's fine.

But, I firmly believe this ideology of yours is harmful to Arab people - thankfully it is being, and will eventually be, superseded. This isn't something I'm doing. It's simply happening as humanity races forward.


We've all been programmed one way or another. It's up to us to see past it.
Michael


PS: Oh, there is nothing wrong with being ignorant. I'm ignorant of many many MANY many many many MANY MANY MANY things. As a matter of fact, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know anything.

There may be something wrong with pointing your finger at someone who happens to be ignorant in a subject. but, that's just an opinion....


PSS: Arab Roman Emperor .. don't forget it!

 

[S.A.M.]

You completely deny Arabs had any sort of history or civilization or culture before Islam was invented

Now you're lying outright. Whats the point?

 

[mike47]

Who knows? All I know is that he represents fiction as fact and expects to be taken seriously.

Maybe he worships cows and goats.....just an observation....:shrug: .

 

[S.A.M.]

Maybe he worships cows and goats.....just an observation....:shrug: .

I think Xenu has top billing where he is concerned. Notice how none of his responses have any connection to what is said...

For example, this:

There is no pre-Islamic written history of the Arabs although the Kufic khatt [the calligraphy later developed in Kufah for the Quran] is 100 years older than Islam

becomes this:

You completely deny Arabs had any sort of history or civilization or culture before Islam was invented. To me, that is bullshit. It's why Arabs have such difficulty moving forward and progressing past Islam - because to do so means they have no culture.

 

[Michael]

He is always attacking Muslims and I just wonder why .

No, I attack the ideology. Christianity went through these exact same birthing pains.

I will attack Mohammad's actions. I see Mohammad as a fictional character.

I may on occasion be an arse hole
Being an arse hole happens when you attack someones belief.

I had a Xian send me a series of pretty pissed of messaged because I write Xian with an X. As if I was SOOOO Satanic my fingers couldn't type the word Christian. Seriously! When I pointed out that Xianity was historically written with an X before being written with a Chris they told me to f*ck off :shrug:


Lastly, you have time, do some research, I would like to know the dates of the various religious books.

 

[mike47]

I think Xenu has top billing where he is concerned. Notice how none of his responses have any connection to what is said...

For example, this:



becomes this:

An idiot by any name is just another idiot.... .

 

[Michael]

Now you're lying outright. Whats the point?

maybe I just don't get your point.

What do you mean when you write this:

There is no pre-Islamic written history of the Arabs.

and I noticed you edited your post. anyway...

Explain who this is

Tell me SAM, is Philippus Arabus an arab? Is there an pre-Islamic writings about him?

 

[S.A.M.]

Also note, this:

I see Mohammad as a fictional character.

inspite of at least three other occurences of having responded with this:

What do we actually know about Mohammed?

And then he actually has the audacity to say:

Lastly, you have time, do some research, I would like to know the dates of the various religious books.

Tell me SAM, is Philippus Arabus an arab? Is there an pre-Islamic writings about him?

No one knows anything about the early life of Philip the Arab, there is no pre-Islamic writing from Arab sources about him. He was born in Syria of a Roman father, he is assumed to be of Arab descent but there is no evidence for this claim. No one knows who his mother was.

 

[Michael]

No one knows anything about the early life of Philip the Arab, there is no pre-Islamic writing from Arab sources about him. He was born in Syria of a Roman father, he is assumed to be of Arab descent but there is no evidence for this claim. No one knows who his mother was.

Thank you SAM, FINALLY.

Is there more or less CONTEMPORARY evidence for Philip or Mohammad?


Lets see if you can be truthful SAM. I'm asking for CONTEMPORARY evidence. That means, at the TIME the person lived. Things written or carved and preserved and existed AT the TIME the person lived.

Try to be truthful,
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

There is contemporary evidence for Mohammed, from traditions other than Arabs. I don't believe there is any contemporary evidence for Philip the Arab

 

[Michael]

I personally find it sad you will try to erase a wonderful chapter in Arab history. It's nice to know Arabs don't share you opinion.