dansufc said:
Have you considered that if you are oblivious to God's presence in your life that he is oblivous of yours in his?
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prove to me that god is real
- Thread starter dansufc
- Start date
Have you considered that if you are oblivious to God's presence in your life that he is oblivous of yours in his?
why do you think people become atheists?John Mark E said:
only if the opposing, debater is using the same references, you have not been ask to defend the bible, just the aledged thing that spoke it. if your god is so real one micro instant of him will prove is existence, no need for forty books of fairy tales.John Mark E said:
we know what you believe, just by stating believer, anything from the bible, used as reference for truth without evidence is preaching.John Mark E said:
there is no need, this so called "not understanding", you refer too is not one of ignorance, but surprise as to how many people cannot see the intolerence, contradictions, absurditys, injustice, and cruelty, in therir beliefs, again how do you think one becomes atheist, by understanding it far to well.John Mark E said:
the rest of your post was complete preaching using a reference, that's invalid-namely the bible.
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
And if you read my other posts, I have stated that the only way to physically prove that which is not physical is to attempt to prove that which is said to have been left to us by Him. Because of that, The Bible is still valid for evidence.geeser said:
You have shown your limited views, in that you are not even getting the right number of books. Try 66.
If you would have taken a moment to note the link posted by 'Godless', you would see that the information I have given was in direct relation to that which was presented to me. The information listed at that link was directly from The Bible. Again, as such, this makes The Bible fully legitimate as a reference point, even by your definition, as both sides of the issue are using it.
how so, the bible does'nt contain any evidence, using it as reference is invalid.John Mark E said:
this is why you will be, knocked down at every turn.
yes, I'm sorry about that I'd just gave my brother forty pounds, so was'nt thinking straight, however if we wish to be correct we could mention the missing 28 books that are mentioned in scripture such asJohn Mark E said:
Book of Jasher
Book of Enoch
The Manner of the Kingdom / Book of Statutes
Book of Samuel the Seer
Nathan the Prophet
The Book of the Acts of Solomon
Shemaiah the Prophet
Prophecy of Abijah
Story of Prophet Iddo
Visions of Iddo the Seer
Iddo Genealogies
Book of Jehu
Sayings of the Seers
Book of the Covenant
Book of the Wars of the Lord
Book of Gad the Seer
Epistle to Corinth
Epistle to the Ephesians
Epistle from Laodicea to the Colossians
Nazarene Prophecy Source
Acts of Uziah
The Annals of King David
Jude, the Missing Epistle
Chronicles of King Ahasuerus
Chronicles of the Kings of Media and Persia
The Chronicles of King David
The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel
The Chronicles of the Kings of Judah
and also the fifteen from the Apocrypha
1st Esdras
2nd Esdras
Tobit
Judith
Add to Esther
The Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus or the Wisdom of Jesus Son Sirach
Baruch
Letter of Jeremiah
Prayer of Azariah or Song of the Three Young Men
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
Prayer of Manasseh
1st Macabees
2nd Macabees
John Mark E said:
but godless was refering to your preaching. was he not.
else he would not of used it.
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
geeser said:
OK, I'll leave you to think that if you wish. However, read the posts I have made containing legitimate evidence, then we'll talk.
I'll leave the other books till later. Although I am reading at least one of them now. Interesting reading. Still has problems, and probably the reason it was not included initially.
Didn't seem to be. Sounded to me as if he was using that as a way to refute The Bible and its teachings. I was merely demonstrating the lack of understanding of that website.
As someone who half believed in the bible..I have to say after doing my own research that I cannot ( with good conscience) embrace this vision of God that is presented in the old or new testament.
There is just no excuse for the excessive acts of violence "apparently" committed by God or his followers...what happened to "love your enemy"..."turn the other cheek" ?...did The God of the bible forget this while slaughterng thousands of people in often very cruel ways?
And yes, I do have the right to judge God...humans have the ability to think and reason...how can I uphold myself to these supposedly high morals that the God of the bible can't even keep himself. "Thou shalt not murder"..ya right!!
It's obvious that all these human like qualities and flaws that the god of the bible has are just simply a personification that was created by the ancient hebrews.
I do believe in God, but my beliefs more fall in line with the religion of the ancient Egyptians. Neterianism. (ya, I guess I'll roast in hell for this
Can I prove the existence of God? No, not a shred. Do I think the Egyptian gods/goddesses existed...no, they are just myths...created to help primitive man/woman place a connection to the supreme being.
For me,it's a personal intuition that I believe there is a supreme being. I want to have that right to believe so. At the same time , I don't feel any need to convert people to my belief system. From what I've learned of Neterianism, it's more important to live your life well and treat people with respect and give selfless service, rather than engage in endless bickering over whos' god is the correct one.
Every person has the right to find their own spiritual path,or no path at all.
There is just no excuse for the excessive acts of violence "apparently" committed by God or his followers...what happened to "love your enemy"..."turn the other cheek" ?...did The God of the bible forget this while slaughterng thousands of people in often very cruel ways?
And yes, I do have the right to judge God...humans have the ability to think and reason...how can I uphold myself to these supposedly high morals that the God of the bible can't even keep himself. "Thou shalt not murder"..ya right!!
It's obvious that all these human like qualities and flaws that the god of the bible has are just simply a personification that was created by the ancient hebrews.
I do believe in God, but my beliefs more fall in line with the religion of the ancient Egyptians. Neterianism. (ya, I guess I'll roast in hell for this
Can I prove the existence of God? No, not a shred. Do I think the Egyptian gods/goddesses existed...no, they are just myths...created to help primitive man/woman place a connection to the supreme being.
For me,it's a personal intuition that I believe there is a supreme being. I want to have that right to believe so. At the same time , I don't feel any need to convert people to my belief system. From what I've learned of Neterianism, it's more important to live your life well and treat people with respect and give selfless service, rather than engage in endless bickering over whos' god is the correct one.
Every person has the right to find their own spiritual path,or no path at all.
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
geeser, I apologize for my snap at this point. This is not how I like to respond to people.JME said:
As for your comment concerning godless, this was not the first time he has used such a website as defense for his position. It is for this reason that I stated that he was "using that as a way to refute The Bible and its teachings."
This is an interesting concept...except that it has been seen before.nova900 said:
-gods/goddess being different aspects of the Supreme God
-salvation by works and your own goodness
-reincarnation
Maybe its just me, but this sounds like nothing more than a different name for some of the basics of Hinduism.
From my reading, Neterianism does believe in those other Egyptian
gods/goddesses, as they are a part of the Supreme God. So are they real?...or are they a myth, and Neterianism is wrong?
www.thirdeyeasia.org/neterianism.htm
www.egyptianyoga.com/page52.htm
In order to have a legitimate claim to judge, one must first have authority over the one being judged. Therefore, to make this claim, you have just told me that you claim to have authority over God. Therefore, even the Supreme God of Neterianism is under your authority. This does not seem to allow for the Supremacy of your God.
That is true...every person has the free-will to make this choice for themselves. That does not mean that those chosen paths are correct, nor that they will not have consequences. This is again saying that human beings are more powerful than God.
As for the 'excessive acts of violence', if you read the rest of what was going on, GENERALLY this was a matter of God's judgement. The times that it was not a part of God's Will, those who committed these acts of violence were punished for it. Not always immediately, but it would happen, in one form or another.
Being a righteous and holy God, He cannot abide with sin. The other nations which seemed to be so often attacked were typically nation-wide idol worshipers, even sacrificing their children, and doing many other things which God states were "abominations". In His righteousness, something had to be done about it.
Speaking of abominations...M*W, if the Hebrew God is nothing more than the sun, why, then, is sun worship referred to as one of these abominations? You can find that here:
Ezekiel 8:15,16,17 - Then said He unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. And He brought me into the innter court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the alter, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. Then He said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of
man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger:
But, then, what difference does it make if The Bible says that your theory is wrong. You do not believe The Bible anyways.
This is an interesting concept...except that it has been seen before.
-gods/goddess being different aspects of the Supreme God
-salvation by works and your own goodness
-reincarnation
Maybe its just me, but this sounds like nothing more than a different name for some of the basics of Hinduism.
Actually, as far as I have researched , Neterianism was the first established religion and it seems Hinduism came afterwards. You can check out Muata Ashbys books at www.egyptianyoga.com I see that you have already been to the site.
From my reading, Neterianism does believe in those other Egyptian
gods/goddesses, as they are a part of the Supreme God. So are they real?...or are they a myth, and Neterianism is wrong?
www.thirdeyeasia.org/neterianism.htm
www.egyptianyoga.com/page52.htm
If you study Neterianism more ( as you obviously have not), it seems the ancient Egyptians fully realized the power of myth as a way of connecting to the supreme being. In no way at all does this negate the concepts of the religion itself.
In order to have a legitimate claim to judge, one must first have authority over the one being judged. Therefore, to make this claim, you have just told me that you claim to have authority over God. Therefore, even the Supreme God of Neterianism is under your authority. This does not seem to allow for the Supremacy of your God.
I don't claim any authority at all. I do claim that I have the ability to see the difference between right and wrong. I can plainly see that the outright genocide and cruelty that the God of the bible commits directly conflict with his message of love ,fairness and respect. I mean ,commanding your followers to stone someone to death for collecting firewood on the sabbath? Really!!
As for the 'excessive acts of violence', if you read the rest of what was going on, GENERALLY this was a matter of God's judgement. The times that it was not a part of God's Will, those who committed these acts of violence were punished for it. Not always immediately, but it would happen, in one form or another.
Yeah, I know..I read "out of context"...well I did read the rest of the verses, it still does not justify his so called "righteousness"...as i said what happened to "love your enemy".."turn the other cheek"?
So, in other words, god reserves the right to slaughter and destroy but If I do it ..it's an act of evil and I must be punished? Don't do as I do..do as I say! Right? How can I respect a god that commits unspeakable acts of violence but demands that I strive to be noble and pure?
Being a righteous and holy God, He cannot abide with sin.
Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Judges 9:23
Then God sent an evil spirit
2 Kings 6:33 ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD;
Micah 1:12 .... evil came down from the LORD
It would seem the god of the bible should address his own dark side before placing judgement upon mankind.
In any case John Mark E, I do respect your right to believe in what you want. We will never see eye to eye thou as it's apparent you can't see thru logic and reasoning all the contradictions and outright evil committed by the god of the OT and NT.
-gods/goddess being different aspects of the Supreme God
-salvation by works and your own goodness
-reincarnation
Maybe its just me, but this sounds like nothing more than a different name for some of the basics of Hinduism.
Actually, as far as I have researched , Neterianism was the first established religion and it seems Hinduism came afterwards. You can check out Muata Ashbys books at www.egyptianyoga.com I see that you have already been to the site.
From my reading, Neterianism does believe in those other Egyptian
gods/goddesses, as they are a part of the Supreme God. So are they real?...or are they a myth, and Neterianism is wrong?
www.thirdeyeasia.org/neterianism.htm
www.egyptianyoga.com/page52.htm
If you study Neterianism more ( as you obviously have not), it seems the ancient Egyptians fully realized the power of myth as a way of connecting to the supreme being. In no way at all does this negate the concepts of the religion itself.
In order to have a legitimate claim to judge, one must first have authority over the one being judged. Therefore, to make this claim, you have just told me that you claim to have authority over God. Therefore, even the Supreme God of Neterianism is under your authority. This does not seem to allow for the Supremacy of your God.
I don't claim any authority at all. I do claim that I have the ability to see the difference between right and wrong. I can plainly see that the outright genocide and cruelty that the God of the bible commits directly conflict with his message of love ,fairness and respect. I mean ,commanding your followers to stone someone to death for collecting firewood on the sabbath? Really!!
As for the 'excessive acts of violence', if you read the rest of what was going on, GENERALLY this was a matter of God's judgement. The times that it was not a part of God's Will, those who committed these acts of violence were punished for it. Not always immediately, but it would happen, in one form or another.
Yeah, I know..I read "out of context"...well I did read the rest of the verses, it still does not justify his so called "righteousness"...as i said what happened to "love your enemy".."turn the other cheek"?
So, in other words, god reserves the right to slaughter and destroy but If I do it ..it's an act of evil and I must be punished? Don't do as I do..do as I say! Right? How can I respect a god that commits unspeakable acts of violence but demands that I strive to be noble and pure?
Being a righteous and holy God, He cannot abide with sin.
Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Judges 9:23
Then God sent an evil spirit
2 Kings 6:33 ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD;
Micah 1:12 .... evil came down from the LORD
It would seem the god of the bible should address his own dark side before placing judgement upon mankind.
In any case John Mark E, I do respect your right to believe in what you want. We will never see eye to eye thou as it's apparent you can't see thru logic and reasoning all the contradictions and outright evil committed by the god of the OT and NT.
Nova; the usual theistic answer to those quotes is: "OUT OF CONTEXT" so JME is so brain washed that he defends his bsbiblerhetoricalcrap even though it supports slavery, baby killing, stoning wifes, etc..
Remember everytime we throw a verse from bsbiblerhetoricalcrap at them, they will in turn say, that what the quote is "OUT OF CONTEXT" observe.
Godless
Remember everytime we throw a verse from bsbiblerhetoricalcrap at them, they will in turn say, that what the quote is "OUT OF CONTEXT" observe.
Godless
John Mark E said:
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M*W: The Hebrew god was based on Egyptian Aten worship as the one and only god. It was Moses who propagated Aten worship. After all, Moses is the Hebrew hero. Over time, Aten worship became identified with a "heavenly father creator," and sun worship was replaced with that newer image of god. Another name for the sun was Sol-O-Mon which became Sun-of-Man (Man's god), and later became known as Jesus, the Son-of-God. All these changes and evolutions of god's ever changing image was based on monotheistic sun worship. The early christians, including Constantine, continued their sun worshipping as late as 14 years AFTER Constantine was allegedly converted to christianity. So, early christians also practiced sun worship. And, nothing's really changed. Today, at The Vatican, there are all kinds of statues and relics to see that sun worship still goes on. Oh, they don't call it that, anymore, nor do they even realize that's what they're doing. They call him Jesus, now, but under The Vatican some ancient gravesites were discovered making it very clear that Jesus Christ was known as "Helios," the Sun. The pope carries a huge sunburst called the Monstrance. I've been there, and Jesus, the god I once knew, was nowhere to be found. That changed my life forever, and for the better. No one can lie to me anymore nor will I follow.
If you take the different aspects of christianity and learn their derivations, you would plainly see how it all stems about from astrology just as its fore-religions stemmed from astrology. Whether you want to believe this or don't, it doesn't matter to me. I've done the research, and I speak the truth.
*************
M*W: This clearly speaks of the zodiac, with the sun as the center and focus of worship.
"Son of Man" is the Sun.
"turn thee yet again" means another night and daybreak, or the rising sun of another day.
"thou wilt see greater abominations than these" meaning there are worse things than sun worship as in the worship of animals as in the animals of the zodiac that were being worshipped instead of the sun.
"the inner court of the Lord's house..." refers to the signs of the zodiac which surround the sun.
"at the door of the temple of the Lord" refers to the sun signs.
"between the porch and the altar" refers to symbols of zodiac worship and animal sacrifice.
"about five and twenty men" refers to degrees in a particular sign of the zodiac. There are about 30 degrees in each sign. It is referring to one of the signs, I don't know offhand which one.
"with their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces to the east" means that time (degrees) were passing, the sun was setting in the west, and as time passed darkness arose in the east. This is not referring to real human beings, but an abomination against the sun.
"and they worshipped the sun in the east" implies waiting for the time that the sun will come up again.
"a light thing toward the house of Judah" means sun worship by the Jews. "House" is also a term used in astrology meaning "location."
"commit the abominations that they commit here" is a reference to the worship of the zodiac animals instead of the sun. They believed the sun was "provoked to anger."
The Sign of Aries, the Ram, was the age of Abraham, Brahmin, which translates to "Ab" (father) "ra" (sunworship) "ham" "him" is plural many "ra" or sun gods.
Christianity came around during the Sign of Pisces, the fish, as in "fishers of men;" the apostles were "fishermen;" and Jesus "walking on water" was the setting sun dancing on the water that the "fishermen" saw.
*************
M*W: I don't believe what you believe your bible says, and I still don't believe in sunworship. That would be you, my friend.
I inadvertently left out this web site and two references:
Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, by Ahmed Osman.
Christianity, An Ancient Egyptian Religion, by Ahmed Osman.
http://www.shabbatkallah-olivetree.org/sunworship.htm
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John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
This was to be judgement for the acts being committed: pride, arrogance, idolatry, adultery. And this was shortly after they were miraculously delivered from the Egyptian army.
This was a means of enacting the consequences for what Abimilech had done to the other people, in killing 70 people with the help of another.
This was an accusation, which was shortly answered by the prophet. God did not make this statement.
"...for the transgressions of Israel were found in thee." Again, this is a means of judgement.
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Godless: When the statement being used is explained in the surrounding text, then "out of context" makes a significant difference. In this instance you have mentioned, I did not say that he took his comment "out of context". I only stated that his information may have been incomplete.
-------------
M*W: WOW!!! How long did it take to make up all this? Did you actually try to redefine every word here? Okay, so maybe not every word.
So you say. Yet, in these verses, "son of man" is the designation given to the author/writer/prophet, Ezekiel. Son of man is a title, because he is human.
turn...simply means "now, look over here...there is more"
This might be reasonable, if the previous verses had not already spoken of animal worship, and the worship of the sun on the temple grounds was the greater abomination.
Only if you are reading THAT much into it. Could it be that this was ACTUALLY the portion of the temple grounds referred to as the Inner Court???
Again, only if you are heavily reading into it. How about the ACUTAL door of the temple? Is that so hard to imagine?
Or that there was (which there was) a portion of the temple referred to as the Porch, and then the sacrificial Alter.
So, then, 25 = 30 ??? What happened to logic and scholarship?
The specification that they had their backs toward the temple simply referred to the fact that they had turned their backs on God, and were participating in sun worship.
Sure, since the passage refers to the people worshipping the sun. Yet God is calling this an abomination.
"a light thing" is a phrase often used, where we would now say that it is a "small thing", or of little consequence. This statement means that this is a major offense.
house of Judah only means the family or tribe of Judah.
That is a bit of a stretch, considering that worship of the sun was the last in a list of abominations, seen as progressively worse, as the location of such worship was a direct insult to God.
So, now Abraham is the father of sunworship? I thought you said Moses was! What happened to consistence?
I think you read the part that I pasted in and then did your best to bend the words to fit what you want them to say. Only then would this idea that god=sun work. But even then, as with this last one, the explanations given, by you, don't even mesh with each other. You are simply trying to read stuff into the words that simply is not there.
Just had a thought.
As far as the "out of context" routine goes...maybe when we read things like "honor your mother and father", "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek"..we are really reading this out of context...what it perhaps really means is ..."Take them out and slaughter them like dogs"...hey that way we can live up to the "righteous" image the god of the bible presents to us!
As far as the "out of context" routine goes...maybe when we read things like "honor your mother and father", "love your enemy", "turn the other cheek"..we are really reading this out of context...what it perhaps really means is ..."Take them out and slaughter them like dogs"...hey that way we can live up to the "righteous" image the god of the bible presents to us!
John Mark E said:
*************
M*W: The Egyptian Army did not, I repeat DID NOT chase after the Ibiru over the Red Sea. That is untruthful, and that is a lie. There is absolutely no evidence to repute that the Egyptian Army chased the Ibiru over the Red Sea. The Exodus did NOT happen. I repeat: The Exodus DID NOT HAPPEN!
This was a means of enacting the consequences for what Abimilech had done to the other people, in killing 70 people with the help of another.
*************
M*W: The Exodus DID NOT HAPPEN. Archeologists and biblical scholars have proven this to be a non-event. It didn't occur.
*************
M*W: The Exodus did not happen. Archeology has proven that it did not occur.
*************
M*W: This proves that the transgressions of Israel were based on human judgment. Therefore, human judgement is subjective with a bit of irony. God help you to redefine human judgment!
M*W: WOW!!! How long did it take to make up all this? Did you actually try to redefine every word here? Okay, so maybe not every word.
*************
M*W: No, I deciphered every phrase according to my knowledge, and this is what I came up with. I am sorry you are at a loss of understanding, but that is not my problem. I have provided you with the truthfull explanations of everything. It is your choice to believe them or not. If you don't believe what I have written, so be it. If you don't believe what I have written, so be it. The truth will always prevail in the end.
*************
M*W: The "son-of-man" refers to the "sun."
*************
M*W: "Turn" is the term for the sun when the ancients thought the sun moved around the Earth, when, in fact, the Earth moved around the Sun. Do not try to contradict me on this, because you will not win. I have researched this, you have not. I don't give a rat's ass if you believe it or not. That is absolutely NOT my concern. I can only tell you where you are logically impaired. When it comes to christianity, you know absolutely nothing. That makes you a liar and a false prophet. To hell with the likes of you!
*************
M*W: Again, you do not know what you are talking about. Sun worship involved animal sacrifice, which was the greater abomination than sun worship. I don't care what you believe. I know you are wrong. I know you are a fool.
Only if you are reading THAT much into it. Could it be that this was ACTUALLY the portion of the temple grounds referred to as the Inner Court???
*************
M*W: I read into it what I believe, and I believe you to be a sun worshipper. It is you who is following your false god. That makes no difference to me. I've tried to teach you, and you have rejected my lessons. That is your problem, not mine. For all I care, you can continue to believe what you believe, but it means absolutely nothing.
*************
M*W: The door of the "temple" refers to the access to the sun. The body is filled with the energy from the sun. Ultimately, it refers to the body as "temple." Without the sun, we would not have the life force of energy. You will never be able to experience the "door to the sun."
The "porch" and the "altar" refer to the "entryway" to the sun, the source of all energy which translates into "the body."
So, then, 25 = 30 ??? What happened to logic and scholarship?
*************
M*W: There are 30 degrees in each sign of the zodiac. There are 30 days in each month. Times 10+, there are roughly 365 days in a year. Each sign of the zodiac takes approximately 2,560 years to complete a whole cycle or a sign of the zodiac. An entire revolution around the zodiac (the alpha and the omega -- the first through the last and back to the first, again) takes about 36,000 years = one cycle around the zodiac.
*************
M*W: No, you're wrong. Their backs were to the west, and they were facing east toward the rising sun. These are real humans they were speaking of, they were degrees in the sign of the times.
*************
M*W: No, it refers to worshipping idols much worse than sun worship. It is referring to worshipping the animals of the zodiac.
"a light thing" is a phrase often used, where we would now say that it is a "small thing", or of little consequence. This statement means that this is a major offense.
*************
M*W: No, this refers strictly to to the "light" of the sun being worshipped instead of the zodiac, which was not an abomination to god.
*************
M*W: No, this means the tribe of Judah who were the sun worshippers.
That is a bit of a stretch, considering that worship of the sun was the last in a list of abominations, seen as progressively worse, as the location of such worship was a direct insult to God.
*************
M*W: How wrong you are! Sun worship was the worship of God, and was not in any way an insult. It was the worship of "animal sacrifice" that was an abomination. It was the worship of the signs of the zodiac instead of the sun that was an abomination.
So, now Abraham is the father of sunworship? I thought you said Moses was! What happened to consistence?
*************
M*W: Moses was considered the "father" of sun worship. Abraham was related to an earlier time than the 18th Dynasty of Moses. Abraham was revered back in 3,500 BCE. Moses was revered in and around 1,350 BCE -- some 2,150 years later. David's "day in the sun" was around 1,750 BCE. None of these "pharaohs" were real living people -- only myths which represented signs of the zodiac. Abraham was the Sign of the Ram (Aries), Mithra was the Sign of the Bull (Taurus), Gemini was the Sign of the Twins (Jesus and Thomas), Pisces was the Sign of the Fish (Jesus and his followers), Leo, the lion, was the sign of Israel, Virgo, was the Virgin (Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalen); Scorpio, the Scorpion, was the sign of Judas; Aquarias, the Water Bearer, was the Sign of John the Baptist; it's just to obvious to discount.
*************
M*W: The words are there, and you refuse to believe them. That's not my problem, it is yours, and it is the problem of all christians. I didn't make this up... I interpreted it from extensive research. Believe what you want, but you cannot change the truth. You're all a bunch of dummied up sun worshippers, and you are going nowhere to be saved! It's just another pipe dream gone bad. How on Earth can you be so stupid?
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
M*W said:
Are these explanations truthful when you have taken words and either tried to change their meanings or the order in which they appear? Or perhaps you are TRYING to find other meanings.
M*W said:
If Heaven and Hell do not exist, as you claim, then why should I worry if you try to send me there?
OK, how does this arguement make sense? If Yahway - God worship was sun worship, and animal sacrifice was a part of this, then how would either one be an abomination? The fact is that animal sacrifice was a major part of the Israelite belief-system, as it is written in The Bible.
That is the basis of your problem. This is not about what YOU believe, but rather what is written.
Read the full chapter. Maybe...just maybe, you will see just how messed up your "interpretations" are.
Ezekiel 8
1And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me.
2Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.
3And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
4And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.
5Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
6He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.
7And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
13He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
18Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
You have completely missed the point. The passage does not state 30. It says 25. By that alone, it states that your interpretation of these people being the signs of the Zodiac is incorrect. Otherwise, show how 25 people = 30 degrees.
I would be wrong IF they were not worshipping the sun. I already said that they were worshipping the sun. It was this act (of sun worship) that was the abomination.
If God-worship were actually SUN-worship, then this chapter, that was simply copied and pasted, so that no changes were made to it, would not state that the worship of the sun was an abomination.
Yet it is stated fairly plainly that this was the case.
Yes, the words are there, and yet it does not seem that you are not reading them all. Either that, or you are deliberately twisting the words.
Does this not seem a contradiction in terms to you?
Must you actually stoop to insults, again? Are you that defeated in your own arguements that you must resort to this?
Romans 1:22 - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
John Mark E said:
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M*W: I have wasted enough time already. I sent you detailed explanations about what I believe to be the truth. I don't whether you believe it or not. Cut-and-pasting all that scripture was preaching. I'm not going to go over each verse and interpret it for you. You can do your own research.
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M*W: You won't go to hell or heaven, but neither will anybody else. They are mythological places only.
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M*W: I tried to explain to you that animal worship and sacrifice came from ancient humans who worshipped the sun (and much of them did). Of course, their mythological god was a jealous god (the Sun) who wanted no other "gods" worshipped before him (as in the sun's presence). THAT was the abomination, not sun worship. Even pre-Israelites like Abraham practiced animal sacrifice. It was not a LITERAL animal sacrifice, it was worshipping ancient astrological symbols instead of the sun.
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M*W: I don't have the problem. I don't believe in the shit! I know what it means, but I don't worship that or anything else. It all boils down to sun worship. The problem comes in
where people believe that Jesus and god were real. They're only mythological. The problem is the misinterpretation from the get-go. Ancient humans created their ancient myths based on the astrological circle (the Alpha and Omega). The sun being in the center of the zodiac (animal and human symbols) appears to comes around and go around, no beginning and no end.
Read the full chapter. Sunrise, sunset, sunrise, sunset. The dying and rising sol-of-man.
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M*W: No, there's no hope that I will ever change my mind about this. It's taken too many years already to do the research, so it's already too obvious to me. I like being an atheist just fine.
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M*W: Here's a website that can explain it better than I can. Read it all, and then if you have any questions, I'll be happy to discuss them with you:
http://www.taroscopes.com/astro-theology/astrotheology.html
Novacane said:
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M*W: How can something that does not exist prove he/she is real? Therefore, how can humans "verify" the existence of this non-existent being if god itself cannot do it?
Novacane said:That's up to God.
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M*W: That's a non-answer. That proves that you believe in something that doesn't exist. Just admit it!