? who still breathes.euphrosene-designation(one of three) said:I presume he still breathes
? who still breathes.euphrosene-designation(one of three) said:I presume he still breathes
dansufc said:any religion i dont care which just prove to me that your god is real! thanks in advance
Medicine Woman said:*************
M*W: There is no one here who will defend the theist side with any credibility.
What you call "personal attacks" are factual. Those who believe in fairy tale characters are "unintelligent."
You say you don't come here to "proselytise," yet you do, and you CANNOT prove that a god exists! I'm sure every atheist on the forum would like for you to prove that your god exists. Yet, you haven't done so.
Call it whatever you want, God of Israel, God of Jacob, God of Moses, God of John Mark E, etc., etc., etc.. It doesn't exist!
M*W said:There is absolutely NO archeological proof that this (famine in Egypt) occurred.
Most likely, it was a figurative construction
Why would any god who was good want to jumble the languages of the people?
Flavius Josephus wrote many things, including the NT possibly.
As in the passion play of Jesus...
Scholarly evidence does not claim...
The plagues of Sinai...
The rest of your citations are undescernable via the Internet
John Mark E said:What, then, in your opinion, constitutes as "credible"?
My credibility lacks only because you say it does. Yet you have been completely unable to disprove any statement I have made, nor any of those so-called "fairy tale characters" with actual, documented FACT. I still await this "crushing" evidence of yours.
Partial translated text from Prof. Niebuhr's "Voyage en Arabie"
--In thy name O God, the God of Hamyar, I tajah, the daughter of Dzu Shefar, sent my steward to Joseph, And he delaying to return to me, I sent my hand maid with a measure of silver, to bring me back a measure of flour: And not being able to procure it, I sent her with a measure of gold: And not being able to procure it, I sent her with a measure of pearls..."
This ancient inscription, discovered in 1850, reveals a Yemenite Arab noble woman's sincere complaint that she could not purchase Egypt's grain with her wealth.
Most likely would mean that you have absolutely nothing to back this claim. Read the rest of the story. You will find that their arrogance and conceit caused them to build this structure in direct defiance of God's instructions to fill the earth. They wanted to "make us a name" for their own pride. Pride was, afterall, the first of all sins.
The "possibly" states that you do not know. Josephus was a historian. He was not a religious writer. A character in a play??? Where did you come up with that one? You have no grounds for such a statement that Jesus was a parody.
There you go with your claim on all scholarly evidence. And what difference does it make if "Ptah" was an Egyptianization of "Peter". Shall I give you the rest of what I had on this guy? Maybe even what "scholars" says about the Egyptian historians.
I have openly admitted, probably a month ago, that I could not provide physical evidence of God, Himself...or at least what you would recognize as evidence. However, with what information I have provided, it is doubtful that anyone, who would honestly research it, could see that the book that claims to be the Word of God has not been misleading or incorrect.
Then read a book. Just because it is on the Internet does not make it true.
Medicine Woman said:*************
John Mark E said:So between the works of Carotta and Atwill, the "character" of Jesus simultaneously is actually Julius Caesar, and is the Emperor Titus Flavius in his campaign against the "warlike" Jews. Those Jews must have been very intimidating on those "warlike" donkeys that they rode into battle, according to their laws.
I find it interesting that between these "sources" all I can see are people doing their best to disprove Christianity by changing history. That appears to be the only goal for writing these books...that and making money off of them.
It is also interesting that these "mysteries" have remained "hidden" for a couple thousand years, and suddenly they are more legitimate than established history.
In looking through these "sources", I could not help but notice the many occurrances of "possibly" or "probably", while further search about the texts stated that these were "new ideas", "never before attempted", "never before heard", "potential truth", and "re-interpreted". Plus the fact that at least two of these references contradict each other, and "Caesar's Messiah" is Atwell's only work to date. I cannot see where any stock can be placed on these books.
As for the Ptah=Peter, again, what is your point? That is no different that if I said Jose was a Spanish form of Joseph or Joe. It is irrelavant what the name means.
re·li·gion n. A set of beliefs, values, and practices; A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Let me see, now...Atheism is not a religion...hmm...
Atheism appears to be a belief that there is no god or that God does not exist. Quibble over technicalities of the definition, if you or anyone else wants to do so.
All of the shouting down of anyone with a belief in God on this site certainly appears that this principle is believed with conscientious devotion. You yourself have claimed that you have arrived to this determination by your "Intellect" and not going back is your conscious decision.
Yeah, Atheism is a religion, too.
re·li·gion n. A set of beliefs, values, and practices; A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Let me see, now...Atheism is not a religion...hmm...
Atheism appears to be a belief that there is no god or that God does not exist. Quibble over technicalities of the definition, if you or anyone else wants to do so.
All of the shouting down of anyone with a belief in God on this site certainly appears that this principle is believed with conscientious devotion. You yourself have claimed that you have arrived to this determination by your "Intellect" and not going back is your conscious decision.
Yeah, Atheism is a religion, too.
broadandbeaver said:and if it were proven, would you then believe? That's the beauty. The signs are all around. Yet they still refuse to see.
and what signs are they, if you can see them, then isnt it only right, under gods law, you should witness to us, and show us the way.broadandbeaver said:and if it were proven, would you then believe? That's the beauty. The signs are all around. Yet they still refuse to see.
Medicine Woman said:*************
M*W: So be it. You have no capacity to understand the truth, and I have no capacity to understand your religous beliefs. Again, I will ask... Why are you here? Religion is subjective. It is not factual. You believe in fairy tales. I believe in truth. Nuff said.
Like I said, not all theists are zealots.The word "or" in the definition presented initially does have a significant impact on that statement. It does not necessitate zeal for a religion. It states "zeal or conscientious devotion."
John Mark E said:"Religion is subjective" BECAUSE you "have no capacity to understand [my] religious beliefs." It is rather strange, although not uncommon, that you have no religious faith, and yet can hold such a strong faith in your "sources" that can neither hold water of themselves, nor can they even remain consistent with other books on the same subject.
This may be "nuff said" for you, but you are no closer to effectively refuting The Bible, or its contents.
Those points which can be proven by history and by archeological evidence and things of a physical nature have shown The Bible to be accurate in its details. Those topics of a spiritual nature, which can never by physically proven, can only be accepted by faith. God gave us the information. It is up to us whether or not we accept it.
Aparantly you have made a choice not to understand why I am here, or you are only throwing out this question to make others wonder. I will spell it out. I am here to answer the initial question presented for this thread. I am here to answer any questions which other subscribers to this thread may have for me. I am here to make comments if I read something to which I disagree, but in doing so, I intend to offer quotes and/or references so that others reading might understand why I disagree. I am here to offer those comments in the spirit of an honest debate. And in doing this, I hope to honor my God by presenting what His Word states is truth.
*************
M*W: Oh, I understand why you are here. Your last sentence says it all. You are here to preach and to convert. Why else would you come to a scientific and predominantly atheistic forum?
I understand the concepts of christianity. I use to be one. I just don't accept them as truth anymore. Many others on this forum have provided endless lists of contradictions to your bible.
The points that you are bringing up in these recent posts have been dealt with hundreds if not thousands of time on this forum. Everytime a new member who is christian joins, we all have to go through this same re-education process from square one. But, regardless of what you believe, you will not change the rest of us to your thinking. More time is wasted answering the same thing over and over to christians who offer absolutely nothing "new under the sun," and it stifles more educated debate on issues that are worth discussing.
Since you don't have any intention of listening to nor believing anything an atheist states, then why are you here? The information you say you want to provide to the forum is readily available on christian websites and in bookstores everywhere. Most atheists already know more about christianity than you do now or ever will. So, can you offer something informative or debatable that we don't already know? If you can't, I see no point in your meaningless and redundant drivel.
hug-a-tree said:You really can't prove or disprove that God is real.
I believe in Jesus but I can't prove to anyone that he's real. You have to find what works for you.
Not necessarily. If you wake up 'someday' and find that just about everyone is gone or disappeared (except for some) with crashed autos and airplanes all over. And piles of empty clothes in the streets in the spots where people were walking and maybe with a few barking (bad) dogs, then you can probably figure out that you and some of the others were 'left behind'.
John Mark E said:Preach and convert???? Where did I state that?Have I asked you, or anyone else, to change your opinions or views?
de*bate noun
Oral confrontation between two individuals or groups who present arguements to support opposing sides of a question.
Without the relatively few Christians that post to this thread, there would not be much of a debate, then, would there?
And if you understand me, and my reasonings so well, then why bother to keep asking me?
Before my first post, I read the entire debate, up to that point, including the 44 posts before you decided to get involved, on April 11th of last year. And as such, I know that the points that I have made have NOT all been considered, nor have they aparantly been considered since I have made them.
Yes, "many others on this forum have provided endless lists of contradictions" to The Bible, and I have taken the time to look up those references. Every one that was listed were so full of holes and misinformation, that none of them could stand their ground any better than those which you have offered.
If you find something else to be more important or "worth discussing", then please, feel free to go in search of those other conversations. This thread, however, concerns the existence of God. To that end, as I consider this to be a very important question, I intend to remain here.
I will grant you that the information I have offered can be found at practically any bookstore or related website. That is the nice thing about bookstores...you can find books there. And I will bet that I can find the books you have listed, there, too. I have listened to what you had to say. I have looked up the information you have provided, as well as those which others have posted, in order to give the source material the courtesy of inspection. All the information offered has proven inconclusive at best.
I do hope that you have something more to offer, rather than simply trying to shout me down, or trying to ridicule and embarrase me into leaving. While it seems to have worked on most others...
hug-a-tree said:You have to find what works for you
M*W said:You didn't have to say it.
We debate plenty amongst ourselves.
...plenty of knowledge about the christian religion. I don't claim to
understand it...
...what it has done to humanity.
The "existence of God" is only of concern to theists.
If you want everyone to agree with you...
Did you post this for debate? If not, then it is preaching. It's obvious why you came here, and it's against the forum rules