prove to me that god is real

A few sweeping statements there Sarkus. At least as a believer, I am quite happy to live with the so-called irrational. What today may be codswallop (to some), could be a tangible fact of life tomorrow.

However, your apparent belief seems to be in only the tangible. Science as any true scientist would agree, is founded on theories (eventually) realised.

The 'reality' of belief is (for me at least) based on consciousness - hardly tangible - but that's another whole ballgame.

Am about to have a cold bath (no hot water till tomorrow). So will catch up another time.

Cheers Euphrosene
 
euphrosene said:
What today may be codswallop (to some), could be a tangible fact of life tomorrow.
Yes - indeed - but while I accept that the intangible might be both plausible and a possibility - I do NOT hold a "belief" that it exists. But I do not go so far as to believe that it does NOT exist. See the difference?

euphrosene said:
However, your apparent belief seems to be in only the tangible.
No - I have no "beliefs" - at least not in the religious sense (i.e. without evidence). The only beliefs I hold are really just subconscious assessments of probability based on plethora experience / observation etc - i.e. that the sky will not fall on my head - or that I won't suddenly float upwards.

euphrosene said:
The 'reality' of belief is (for me at least) based on consciousness - hardly tangible - but that's another whole ballgame.
:D
Then this is where we differ - 'cos to me "consciousness" is ENTIRELY tangible - in that it is nothing more than a word we use to describe a vastly complex material process in a vastly complex material structure.
 
Medicine Woman said:
Why would a christian come into an predominantly atheistic forum?

Why would a "predominantly atheistic forum" have a section on Religion to begin with, and then have a member ask such a question as that which led to this entire thread?

You're like a fish out of water. You have nothing to offer the forum.

I am sorry, but I cannot help it if you have been unable to provide ample "evidence" to refute my statements, and those of The Bible. Never once have you backed up a single one of your arguements in this thread. Everything you have stated appears to be nothing more than your opinion. At the very least, I have documented where I have gotten my information. Will your "scholarship" hold any more water than Godless' website documentation? I hope so, because those sites were worthless.
 
John Mark E said:
Why would a "predominantly atheistic forum" have a section on Religion to begin with, and then have a member ask such a question as that which led to this entire thread?

*************
M*W: No, you have infiltrated an atheistic forum. You have not proven anything. Religion needs to be studied scientifically just as the physical laws need to be studied, and yet, not one of your cohorts has provided an accurate study on god. I will ask you again, why would you post on a predominantly atheistt forum about your christianity?

I am sorry, but I cannot help it if you have been unable to provide ample "evidence" to refute my statements, and those of The Bible.

M*W: I have provided more than ample evidence to squash your pseudoreligion.

Never once have you backed up a single one of your arguements in this thread.

M*W: That's because you REFUSE to believe anything I have to say.

Everything you have stated appears to be nothing more than your opinion.

M*W: My "opinion" has been formulated from the atrocities I've witnessed from religious study.

At the very least, I have documented where I have gotten my information. Will your "scholarship" hold any more water than Godless' website documentation? I hope so, because those sites were worthless.

*************
M*W: You hold no "scholarship." You have not researched nor studied anything beyond your lying bible. Perhaps, if you were to study the archeology and biblical scholarship, you would have a better understanding of the history that actually transpired. Therefore, you have no hope of acquiring any congninzance of the subject.
 
John Mark E said:
Why would a "predominantly atheistic forum" have a section on Religion to begin with, and then have a member ask such a question as that which led to this entire thread?

*************
M*W: No, you have infiltrated an atheistic forum. You have not proven anything. Religion needs to be studied scientifically just as the physical laws need to be studied, and yet, not one of your cohorts has provided an accurate study on god. I will ask you again, why would you post on a predominantly atheistt forum about your christianity?

I am sorry, but I cannot help it if you have been unable to provide ample "evidence" to refute my statements, and those of The Bible.

M*W: I have provided more than ample evidence to squash your pseudoreligion.

Never once have you backed up a single one of your arguements in this thread.

M*W: That's because you REFUSE to believe anything I have to say.

Everything you have stated appears to be nothing more than your opinion.

M*W: My "opinion" has been formulated from the atrocities I've witnessed from religious study.

At the very least, I have documented where I have gotten my information. Will your "scholarship" hold any more water than Godless' website documentation? I hope so, because those sites were worthless.

*************
M*W: You hold no "scholarship." You have not researched nor studied anything beyond your lying bible. Perhaps, if you were to study the archeology and biblical scholarship, you would have a better understanding of the history that actually transpired. Therefore, you have no hope of acquiring any congninzance of the subject.
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: You hold no "scholarship." You have not researched nor studied anything beyond your lying bible. Perhaps, if you were to study the archeology and biblical scholarship, you would have a better understanding of the history that actually transpired. Therefore, you have no hope of acquiring any congninzance of the subject.

And if you would actually READ the posts I have made previously, you would note the archeological information I have already presented. I still have not seen any documentation which would support even the smallest statement you have made.

Another point in which you err is that I have actually read, studied, and researched MUCH outside of The Bible. However, The Bible has been a starting point for this study. And in ALL points, The Bible has proven accurate, time and time again.

You appear to have nothing more than opinion. It is only factual because you state that it is factual. And you still have not answered my questions.
 
John Mark E said:
And if you would actually READ the posts I have made previously, you would note the archeological information I have already presented. I still have not seen any documentation which would support even the smallest statement you have made.

Another point in which you err is that I have actually read, studied, and researched MUCH outside of The Bible. However, The Bible has been a starting point for this study. And in ALL points, The Bible has proven accurate, time and time again.

You appear to have nothing more than opinion. It is only factual because you state that it is factual. And you still have not answered my questions.

*************
M*W: Again, you hold no scholarship. With every post you've made, you have lied because you refuse to hear the truth. You have provided absolutely no archeological proof of anything. You are just blowing in the wind. Your posts have supported nothing but lies.

If you have studied outside the bible, then post you references so they can be peer-reviewed. Thus far, you have failed to prove anything but posting lies.

For you to believe the bible is accurate is to prove that you are a fool. You can hope to pull the wool over the eyes of your fellow christians, but you will never be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the learned on this forum. Nice try, though.
 
What's with all the accusations of 'lying' and 'lies'?

The Bible is a subjective perspective on beliefs although archaeology has backed up some of the verses.

But what does it matter whether it does or not? It is the message that is the 'reality' surely? That's what faith is based on.

The dogma was presumably created for plankton minds who needed daily guidance in living... like knowing how to treat one's fellow man and so forth.
 
yes euphro, the big problem is that theist try to force their doctrines on the rest of us, that has been happening for milliniums, in one part of the world they force one type of doctrine, in another little choice is given, "now" but was forced in the past. When a child is indoctrinated to BS what choic does he have but to accept the BS that is being told to him by authorative figures. And that's the problem.


Theist like to blame all the ills of the world on secularism. Well they been runing the likes of people's minds for milliniums, they done nothing but creat controversy between different sects, doctrines and religious idealogies, furthermore they still force some doctrines in parts of the world to the point of choose or die!

Godless
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: Again, you hold no scholarship. With every post you've made, you have lied because you refuse to hear the truth.{/QUOTE]

Even if I were mistaken, that would have no cause to label these statements as lies. This appears as a desprate attempt to discredit what you cannot honestly refute.

You have provided absolutely no archeological proof of anything. You are just blowing in the wind. Your posts have supported nothing but lies.

Again you have shown that you are not reading the posts. Here you go. This will make it easier:

1: archeological discoveries mentioning visiting Joseph in Egypt during a famine, since they were the only source of food...Professor Niebuhr's "Voyage en Arabie"

2: King Nebuchadnezzar's inscription found by Professor Oppert at a site known as Barzippa, 'tongue-tower', otherwise known as the Tower of Babel

3: Moses and Joseph both mentioned in the historical writings of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, in his book Josephus Against Apion

4: Merenptah-the Egyptian Pharoah was originally discovered in 1898 by French archeologist Victor Loret. The medical examination was only completed in 1975. Due to the examination showing his death by rapid drowning and removal from the water, along with other study gave grounds for the most notable Egyptologist, Sir Flinders Petrie, to conclude that Pharaoh Merenptah was the pharaoh of the book of Exodus.

5: Numerous "seals" have been unearthed in different digs which were directly associated with different historical figures mentioned in the Bible. Among these: Baruch, son of Neriah, friend and scribe for the prophet Jeremiah; Shema, servant of Jeroboam; Abdi, the high official of King Hosea, the last king of the northern kingdom of Israel, before it was conquered by the Assyrian Empire in 721BC.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=46387&page=6&pp=20

If you have studied outside the bible, then post you references so they can be peer-reviewed.

OK. Actually, I'll just do a small part. It would take too long to type it all, and you probably would not read it anyway.

----------------------------------------
Robert Dick Wilson, A Scientific Investigation of the Old Testament, (Chicago Moody Press, 1959) 130.

--“In conclusion, we claim that the assault upon the integrity and trustworthiness of the Old Testament along the line of language have utterly failed. The critics have not succeeded in a single line of attach in showing that the diction and style of any part of the Old Testament are not in harmony with the ideas and aims of writers who lived at, or near, the time when the events occurred that are recorded in the various documents…We boldly challenge these Goliaths of ex-cathedra theories to come down into the field…and fight a fight to the finish on the level ground of the facts and the evidence.”

Joseph Free, Archaeology and Bible History, (Wheaton: Scripture Press Publications, 1969)

--“Alfredo Trombetti claims that he can prove the common origin of all languages. Max Mueller, one of the greatest oriental language scholars, declared that all human languages can be traced back to one single, original language.”

William Kennett Loftus, Travels and Researches in Chaldea and Sinai, (London: James Nisbet, 1857) 29.

--Nebuchadnezzar’s Inscription found on the base of the Tower of Babel.

Charles Forster, Sinai Photographed, (London: Richard Bentley, 1862)

--Inscribed poem describing the famine of Joseph

Flavius Josephus, Josephus Against Apion trans. William Whiston, (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1960. I., 26, 27, 32).

--Mentions of Joseph and Moses, being leaders of the Jews, moving north to Judea, founding Jerusalem and the temple, and establishing laws which were mostly opposite of those in Egypt.

Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert (New York, Grove, 1960) 31.

--“It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries. They form tesserae in the vast mosaic of the Bible’s almost incredibly correct historical memory.”

Karl-Richard Lepsius, Die Chronologie der Aegypter (Berlin: 1849) 388.

--Identifies Pharoah Merenptah as that of the Exodus

Gaston Maspero, Guide to the Visitor of Cairo Museum (Cairo).

--“Merenptah was the pharaoh of the Exodus ‘who is said to have perished in the Red Sea’.”

Henry M. Morris, The Bible and Modern Science, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1956).

--“Problems still exist, of course, in the complete harmonization of archaeological material with the Bible, but none so serious as not to bear real promise of imminent solution through further investigation. It must be extremely significant that, in view of the great mass of corroborative evidence regarding Biblical history of these periods, there exists today not one unquestionable find of archaeology that proves the Bible to be in error at any point.

Internet site: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7234/quotes.html

--“Of the hundreds of thousands of artifacts found by the archaeologists, not one has ever been discovered that contradicts or denies one word, phrase, clause, or sentence of the Bible, but always confirms and verifies the facts of the Biblical record.

--“After 45 years of scholarly research in biblical textual studies and in language study, I have come now to the conviction that no man knows enough to assail the truthfulness of the Old Testament. When there is sufficient documentary evidence to make an investigation, the statement of the Bible, in the original text, has stood the test.”
---------------------------------------------

Here is a small list, with either quotes or descriptions of the information found. I still await the same courtesy.

For you to believe the bible is accurate is to prove that you are a fool.

Psalms 14:1 & Psalms 53:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
 
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Godless said:
yes euphro, the big problem is that theist try to force their doctrines on the rest of us,...
Theist like to blame all the ills of the world on secularism. Well they been runing the likes of people's minds for milliniums, they done nothing but creat controversy between different sects, doctrines and religious idealogies, furthermore they still force some doctrines in parts of the world to the point of choose or die!

Godless

Dear Godless, my name is Euphrosene (no abbreviations please) and if by theist you mean people who believe in God, as well as those who follow formal religions (not always the same thing), then, as my earlier posts have made clear, I am indeed a 'theist'. I call my bit of God the 'Big E' (taken from Wakan Tanka or Great Everything).

A belief in god or God does not create controversy. It is belonging to formal or informal groups and using them to sway the balance of power - and they can be religious, national, sexist - even of football clubs.

I doubt if people could run out of things to be divisive about whether there was acknowledgement of God or not.

Earlier, I may have been a bit harsh about religious dogma... for some people it is a very useful support. It gives structure to their lives. The problem arises when they lose their ability to think independently as well.

But not all people are like that. I was a devout Catholic for more than half my life (so far) and it has not stopped any inner exploration or being able to create my own faith now (entheism).

Then there are mystics like Teilhard de Chardin and any number of physicists who remain within their faiths yet still mentally explored and even questioned.

To be vehemently anti is every bit as limited in thinking as any radical or fundamentalist.
 
John Mark E said:
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: Again, you hold no scholarship. With every post you've made, you have lied because you refuse to hear the truth.{/QUOTE]
---
Even if I were mistaken, that would have no cause to label these statements as lies. This appears as a desprate attempt to discredit what you cannot honestly refute.

*************
M*W: You just don't get it! You ARE mistaken! A "desperate attempt to discredit" you is the least of my concern. I don't give a flying f*ck what you believe or why, but you cannot represent yourself and your bible as undoubtable truths on this forum. This forum is for religious debate, and you have not done that. Being a "scientific forum," we rely on debate of the pros and cons of religion. You claim to be a christian, so I will still ask you: "Why are you here?" If you came here to proselytise, then you have broken the forum rules. If you come here to question your religion, then we can help you. Otherwise, if you're a die-hard christian trying to convert the atheists on board, then you need to get the hell outta Dodge. This forum is for the intelligent only and not for christians trying to push their lies on others.
---
Again you have shown that you are not reading the posts. Here you go. This will make it easier:

*************
M*W: I read everything, so don't go there.
---
1: archeological discoveries mentioning visiting Joseph in Egypt during a famine, since they were the only source of food...Professor Niebuhr's "Voyage en Arabie"

*************
M*W: There is absolutely NO archeological proof that this occurred. It was just a story. Joseph in Egypt was a vizier, a governmental official to the pharaoh. He may have been Moses' ancestor. In Egypt he went by the name "Yuyu,"and was a minister to Pharaoh Amenhotep III, Moses' father. This is the same Joseph with the coat of many colors, Moses' ancestor.
---
2: King Nebuchadnezzar's inscription found by Professor Oppert at a site known as Barzippa, 'tongue-tower', otherwise known as the Tower of Babel
---
*************
M*W: King Neb was the ruler of Babylon. The Tower of Babel was a tower in Babylonia. Most likely, it was a figurative construction. Why would any god who was good want to jumble the languages of the people?
---
3: Moses and Joseph both mentioned in the historical writings of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, in his book Josephus Against Apion
---
*************
M*W: Flavius Josephus wrote many things, including the NT possibly. At least that's what modern scholars believe. So, it's not doubtful that FJ wrote texts including Moses and Joseph. However, that DOES NOT MEAN these people were real or historic! As in the passion play of Jesus, Jesus was a character in a play, a parody, on the life of Julius Caesar. Art imitates life. Jesus didn't exist even though Julis Caesar appeared to be an historic character. It's a PARODY on which a religion was formed.
---
4: Merenptah-the Egyptian Pharoah was originally discovered in 1898 by French archeologist Victor Loret. The medical examination was only completed in 1975. Due to the examination showing his death by rapid drowning and removal from the water, along with other study gave grounds for the most notable Egyptologist, Sir Flinders Petrie, to conclude that Pharaoh Merenptah was the pharaoh of the book of Exodus.
---
*************
M*W: Scholarly evidence does not claim MerenPtah was the Pharaoh at the time of the Exodus, in fact, the "Exodus" was just another story as it never happened. Scholars and Archeologists have confirmed this. Modern day scholars believe "Ptah" to be an Egyptianization of "Peter."
---
5: Numerous "seals" have been unearthed in different digs which were directly associated with different historical figures mentioned in the Bible. Among these: Baruch, son of Neriah, friend and scribe for the prophet Jeremiah; Shema, servant of Jeroboam; Abdi, the high official of King Hosea, the last king of the northern kingdom of Israel, before it was conquered by the Assyrian Empire in 721BC.
---
*************
M*W: The plagues of Sinai were for punishment, as found in the Book of Hosea. The punishment was carried out by Ephraim, also known as Aye, Tutankhamun's vizier and head charioteer. All these plagues lead to why Tutankhamun was killed. History doesn't tell us much, but we do know that he came to a violent end.

*************
OK. Actually, I'll just do a small part. It would take too long to type it all, and you probably would not read it anyway. Robert Dick Wilson, A Scientific Investigation of the Old Testament, (Chicago Moody Press, 1959) 130.

--“In conclusion, we claim that the assault upon the integrity and trustworthiness of the Old Testament along the line of language have utterly failed. The critics have not succeeded in a single line of attach in showing that the diction and style of any part of the Old Testament are not in harmony with the ideas and aims of writers who lived at, or near, the time when the events occurred that are recorded in the various documents…We boldly challenge these Goliaths of ex-cathedra theories to come down into the field…and fight a fight to the finish on the level ground of the facts and the evidence.”

*************
M*W: This says nothing.
*************
Joseph Free, Archaeology and Bible History, (Wheaton: Scripture Press Publications, 1969)

--“Alfredo Trombetti claims that he can prove the common origin of all languages. Max Mueller, one of the greatest oriental language scholars, declared that all human languages can be traced back to one single, original language.”

*************
M*W: Of course they can, this is not earthshattering! All languages developed from a single language, possibly Phoenician, and traveled worldwide. Linguists study language and have found that Phoenician resembles Sumerian. Sumerian is closely related to Arabic and Hebrew. Hebrew is very close to Egyptian and other Mediterranean languages. Italian is close to Sicilian and Maltese. Then language evolved toward Austrian-German, and Germanic into Anglo-Saxon English. The Latin languages evolved to French, Castillian, Mexican, and American evolved from the Germanic languages. This is NOT new news.
---
William Kennett Loftus, Travels and Researches in Chaldea and Sinai, (London: James Nisbet, 1857) 29.

--Nebuchadnezzar’s Inscription found on the base of the Tower of Babel.

Charles Forster, Sinai Photographed, (London: Richard Bentley, 1862)

--Inscribed poem describing the famine of Joseph

Flavius Josephus, Josephus Against Apion trans. William Whiston, (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1960. I., 26, 27, 32).

--Mentions of Joseph and Moses, being leaders of the Jews, moving north to Judea, founding Jerusalem and the temple, and establishing laws which were mostly opposite of those in Egypt.

Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert (New York, Grove, 1960) 31.

--“It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries. They form tesserae in the vast mosaic of the Bible’s almost incredibly correct historical memory.”

Karl-Richard Lepsius, Die Chronologie der Aegypter (Berlin: 1849) 388.

--Identifies Pharoah Merenptah as that of the Exodus

Gaston Maspero, Guide to the Visitor of Cairo Museum (Cairo).

--“Merenptah was the pharaoh of the Exodus ‘who is said to have perished in the Red Sea’.”

Henry M. Morris, The Bible and Modern Science, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1956).

--“Problems still exist, of course, in the complete harmonization of archaeological material with the Bible, but none so serious as not to bear real promise of imminent solution through further investigation. It must be extremely significant that, in view of the great mass of corroborative evidence regarding Biblical history of these periods, there exists today not one unquestionable find of archaeology that proves the Bible to be in error at any point.

Internet site: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7234/quotes.html

--“Of the hundreds of thousands of artifacts found by the archaeologists, not one has ever been discovered that contradicts or denies one word, phrase, clause, or sentence of the Bible, but always confirms and verifies the facts of the Biblical record.

--“After 45 years of scholarly research in biblical textual studies and in language study, I have come now to the conviction that no man knows enough to assail the truthfulness of the Old Testament. When there is sufficient documentary evidence to make an investigation, the statement of the Bible, in the original text, has stood the test.”
Here is a small list, with either quotes or descriptions of the information found. I still await the same courtesy.

Psalms 14:1 & Psalms 53:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

*************
M*W: The rest of your citations are undescernable via the Internet.
 
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Medicine Woman said:
This forum is for the intelligent only and not for christians trying to push their lies on others.

Oh, so now I am unintelligent?!?!?!? I fail to see how personal attacks such as this mesh with the "scientific debate".

you cannot represent yourself and your bible as undoubtable truths on this forum.

When the evidence found, and offered clearly states otherwise, how can I not? How many times must one request this supposed information that "proves" that I am incorrect?

If you came here to proselytise, then you have broken the forum rules.

I have not come to "proselytise". I have, not once, requested anyone to convert to my beliefs. The question was asked to prove God exists. I have simply tried to answer this as well as any other questions presented to me.

As a christian, I will still ask you: "Why are you here?"
This forum is for religious debate

If you were being at all "scientific" about this whole thing, it should be painfully obvious that you cannot have a debate without both sides of the issue being represented. In this case, we have the Atheist-side of religion very well represented. Who will represent the "Theist" arguement?

Being a "scientific forum," we rely on debate of the pros and cons of religion.

Proving God exists has nothing to do with pros and cons, yet it is the founding question of this thread. Quit trying to divert the question. I still expect to hear this dramatic evidence that proves me wrong in regards to the God of Israel.
 
John Mark E said:
Oh, so now I am unintelligent?!?!?!? I fail to see how personal attacks such as this mesh with the "scientific debate".

When the evidence found, and offered clearly states otherwise, how can I not? How many times must one request this supposed information that "proves" that I am incorrect?

I have not come to "proselytise". I have, not once, requested anyone to convert to my beliefs. The question was asked to prove God exists. I have simply tried to answer this as well as any other questions presented to me.

If you were being at all "scientific" about this whole thing, it should be painfully obvious that you cannot have a debate without both sides of the issue being represented. In this case, we have the Atheist-side of religion very well represented. Who will represent the "Theist" arguement?

Proving God exists has nothing to do with pros and cons, yet it is the founding question of this thread. Quit trying to divert the question. I still expect to hear this dramatic evidence that proves me wrong in regards to the God of Israel.

*************
M*W: There is no one here who will defend the theist side with any credibility.

What you call "personal attacks" are factual. Those who believe in fairy tale characters are "unintelligent."

You say you don't come here to "proselytise," yet you do, and you CANNOT prove that a god exists! I'm sure every atheist on the forum would like for you to prove that your god exists. Yet, you haven't done so.

Call it whatever you want, God of Israel, God of Jacob, God of Moses, God of John Mark E, etc., etc., etc.. It doesn't exist!
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: There is no one here who will defend the theist side with any credibility.

Perhaps not. But then neither does the 'other side'.... and rising emotion serves neither side.

Call it whatever you want, God of Israel, God of Jacob, God of Moses, God of John Mark E, etc., etc., etc.. It doesn't exist!

I presume he still breathes and, in my belief, that IS the divine spark. Temples of God and all that...

Euphrosene
 
Sarkus said:
Yes - indeed - but while I accept that the intangible might be both plausible and a possibility - I do NOT hold a "belief" that it exists. But I do not go so far as to believe that it does NOT exist. See the difference?

Yes - a might clumsy but yes.

No - I have no "beliefs" - at least not in the religious sense (i.e. without evidence). The only beliefs I hold are really just subconscious assessments of probability based on plethora experience / observation etc - i.e. that the sky will not fall on my head - or that I won't suddenly float upwards.

Surely a sign of a closed mind? Whatever happened to imagination? After all as I believe Einstein said, it is more important than knowledge.

:D
Then this is where we differ - 'cos to me "consciousness" is ENTIRELY tangible - in that it is nothing more than a word we use to describe a vastly complex material process in a vastly complex material structure.

Interesting... and possibly another thread.
 
euphrosene said:
Surely a sign of a closed mind? Whatever happened to imagination? After all as I believe Einstein said, it is more important than knowledge.
I can certainly IMAGINE that it exists - but without evidence I will not have a belief that it definitely DOES exist.

I am fully open to the possibility that God (depending upon definition) exists. But without evidence I am not going to believe that God does exist.
Until there is evidence God will remain as possible as the infinite other things that I can imagine for which there is no evidence.

The only way I could claim God does NOT exist would be to logically disprove the existence of God.
Depending upon the definition of God - this is not easily done - especially with the "Initial Cause"-type of God that then leaves the Universe to go its own merry way without ANY intervention from the Creator.
Logically possible - but not something I would BELIEVE in as there is no evidence.
 
Sarkus said:
I can certainly IMAGINE that it exists - but without evidence I will not have a belief that it definitely DOES exist.

I am fully open to the possibility that God (depending upon definition) exists. But without evidence I am not going to believe that God does exist.
Until there is evidence God will remain as possible as the infinite other things that I can imagine for which there is no evidence.

The only way I could claim God does NOT exist would be to logically disprove the existence of God.
Depending upon the definition of God - this is not easily done - especially with the "Initial Cause"-type of God that then leaves the Universe to go its own merry way without ANY intervention from the Creator.
Logically possible - but not something I would BELIEVE in as there is no evidence.

I think that's the whole divine paradox... although I have had an 'experience' that made me aware of God as Infinite Creative Source. The awesomeness was rather frightening actually.

Anyway, enough. Belief is really not that easy to explain - that's why it's a belief, I suppose.

I could give several examples of the reality of my bit of God to me, but some guy or other would expound on any illogicality or try to find pragmatic reasons to explain them away. That is their belief and that is how it is manifested in turn.

I write simply to share, not to preach or make people believe as I do. If I butt into someone else's thread it is in the hope of re-balancing an argument only.

Cheers Euphrosene
 
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