So far this is what I understand about your concept...
Wholeness - an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting.
Sounds like God, to me, but lets see how you take God out of the picture.
jan.
Proof there is a God
- Thread starter JBrentonK
- Start date
So far this is what I understand about your concept...
Wholeness - an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting.
Sounds like God, to me, but lets see how you take God out of the picture.
jan.
Such as.
It's one thing to say ''various interpretations of a concept'', and another thing to point it out, and explain how they actually vary.
Why is necessary to adhere to one particular scripture to discuss God? Don't you think that if God existed then all the scripture adhere to It?
I'm not looking at it the way you are, and you should learn to accept that. Even though I'm sure your concept of Wholeness is non other than God, or an aspect of God, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by hearing what you have to say.
I just finished painting the kitchen. It looks nice, but I don't need to know the mathematical process that was involved in whole thing.
What is mathematical Wholeness, and why should it be of any concern to the ordinary, everyday person?
jan,
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
So, you agree that in your terms this definition could also be read as:
God - an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting.
or perhaps,
Brahman - an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
IMO, this is Bohm's *Wholeness*, an energetic condition (field) with infinite potential which is in a constant state of unfolding and evolving (becoming realized) physically through a hierarchical and chronological process of selection from implied probabilities, from the very subtle to gross physical expression in our reality.
The metaphysical functional essence of this *wholeness* is mathematical and all functions and processes springing from the universal potential are through the use of inherently mathematical operations and functions. A perfectly implacable process.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/implacable
Are we still agreed?
Yes. There is a nice invocation in the Isopanishads that goes...
Iso Invocation — The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.
Mathematics appears to be your strong point, so please remember that I am basic (at best) in this subject. Make it as simple to comprehend as you can.
How does mathematics come to be?
It seems to be a product of mind, not nature.
Yes.
jan.
No. Even if god does exist, he obviously does not care what men write about him. In fact there is no evidence that he gives a shit what men do, especially to each other - wars, rapes, mass starvation, diseases that can be prevented for 50 cents per person, etc. from a very long list of man's inhumanity to other men.
I made basically this comment some days ago. You said you would get back to me on it. Which is it? He doesn't give a shit? Or he has no powers? Or he does not exist?
It would have been so easy for an all knowing god with even slight powers on Earth, to have given Hitler a heart attack as a teenager, etc. No one needed to have known a miracle (violation of the natural laws) had occurred.
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
OK, we have agreed that we are talking about the wholeness which includes this universe.
Now the question remains, how this wholeness functions. My position is that the wholeness functions mathematically, without which reality cannot exist. There is no known object which is not essentially mathematical in structure or function.
I'll cite Tegmark's explanation, as he has the qualifications to give these answers at the most knowledgeable level.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/
IMO, perhaps the greatest accomplishment in human understanding of the universe and its implacable functions.
Logically, if we discover mahematical functions everywhere we look, there can be only one explanation. The things and their functions we look at must be mathematical in their very essence, else how could we describe these things through our (man-made) mathematical symbols and prove the consistency of the mathematical functions of the wholeness and everything within it.
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
post script;
The beauty and power of the mathematical function in the expression of universal energetic potential lies in its very functional simplicity which allows for the creation (evolution) of the most complex forms. This can easily be demonstrated through fractals, which are based on very simple mathematical equations, but can create the most intricate and beautiful structures imaginable, and are observably present in many forms in nature.
Thus we can add to the top of the list:
Mathematical Order - an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting.
The beauty and power of the mathematical function in the expression of universal energetic potential lies in its very functional simplicity which allows for the creation (evolution) of the most complex forms. This can easily be demonstrated through fractals, which are based on very simple mathematical equations, but can create the most intricate and beautiful structures imaginable, and are observably present in many forms in nature.
Thus we can add to the top of the list:
Mathematical Order - an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting.
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So said Plato.
An analogy for God, the professor gives his students quizzes and exams. The professor; God, could give them all the answers and protect his students from disappointment and pain. However, they will not learn anything. It is better if he allows them to make mistakes on the quizzes, and learn from this.
Since the time of Hitler, humans have learned from this mistake of denial, and will not allow this to happen again. They learned from their mistake and made the corrections needed to ace the final exam. Hitler showed everyone, not all aspects of free will and choice edify. Hitler was not the first conqueror, but he was the one whose lesson made the difference.
Another analogy for why God does not intercede is connected to AI. Say you developed a computer that could think. It then goes beyond just thinking and develops will power and choice. The first day you noticed its willpower, was when the AI computer shuts down the entire building's power grid. This action was very naughty/evil to everyone, because it impacted a lot of people and their experiments. But to the creator, although its action was bad, it also meant the the first appearance of AI; awe inspiring. It was a huge milestone, even though destructive. It is not as simple as right and wrong, if you look at the biggest picture of AI.
When we think of the evil acts of free will, most of us take the POV of the scientist's whose lab lost power and his experiment was messed up. He is angry at the creator of the AI computer, as well as the AI computer. They dam God and his creation, because the creator should be keeping him under control. But the creator of the AI sees things differently. He marvels at each step forward, even if this is not optimized to the needs of everyone. The goal is still many steps down the road, when the AI will be harnessed for good.
The bible says, the anxious longing of creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the son's of God. This is when the human AI has learned its many lessons, from its mistakes, and is now willfully choosing the paths that optimize. At that time, the creator, the creation and those impacted are all in agreement that this was a good idea.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Scriptures, teachings and personal belief offer no evidence that god exists other in the minds of those who for whatever reason believe.
Annologies are no substitue for describing the reality.
But lets consider this one.
God is like a farmer who builds a pasture for his sheep and then leaves the farm leaving the sheep to get by the best way they can with no guidence other than the lead sheep who is no wiser than the rest.
The thread title hinted at proof.
Not only has none been offerred but the thread moves in the direction of inviting folk to prove there is no god because there is so much made up stuff out there that some of it must be right.... And so we move to a nice polite, seemingly highly interlectual chat about this and that and how somehow god is pretty smart letting millions upon millions suffer and die without reason.
Pathetic appologists for superstitious unsupportable fairy tales.
A santa clause for grown ups.
Alex
Annologies are no substitue for describing the reality.
But lets consider this one.
God is like a farmer who builds a pasture for his sheep and then leaves the farm leaving the sheep to get by the best way they can with no guidence other than the lead sheep who is no wiser than the rest.
The thread title hinted at proof.
Not only has none been offerred but the thread moves in the direction of inviting folk to prove there is no god because there is so much made up stuff out there that some of it must be right.... And so we move to a nice polite, seemingly highly interlectual chat about this and that and how somehow god is pretty smart letting millions upon millions suffer and die without reason.
Pathetic appologists for superstitious unsupportable fairy tales.
A santa clause for grown ups.
Alex
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Why would a sentient IA which receives its power from the powergrid, shut the grid down and thereby commit suicide?
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
OK back to the warm and fuzzy seemingly intellectual fall back that avoids addressing legitimate concerns of those wondering if the sheep are mistaken about their mythical farmer.
Sorry but the op is far from living up to its hinted claim.
Alex
That is a clever line. Is it one you read, or created?
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Few ideas or "lines" prove to be original and so it would be reasonable to expect that I am not the first to use it however if I am the only one to have put it this way it is not something I would like to appear on my tombstone.
It is offensive and I am behaving as a bigot so I lose.
I simply lose patience in these matters stemming from unfortunate experience with believers who prove themselves to me as hypocrites.
Ironically I believe I am a better christian than those I have dealt with except I dont believe there is a god, that Jesus was the son of god nor do I believe in the resurrection nor afterlife heven or hell.
I do believe one should respect others, be caring, be hopeful, be loving, be positive and avoid the negative aspects of ourselves such as hate, anger, envy and pride. For starters but I will keep it brief but I hope you get the idea.
If there is a god I have no fear of judgement day.
It is the made up stuff and the excuses of humans that ticks me off.
This thread, its promise, the moving goal posts the suggestion that we should not question the undeniable missery, inequity and well killing, and having a warm and fuzzy chat about this or that seems so much crap to me.
Alex
If God does exist, why wouldn't He care?
We humans are the cause of our discontent.
We are the ones who engage in mass killing, for the paltry need of satisfying our senses. If we can do the horrific things we do to animals, without batting an eyelid, then we are also capable of doing it to our fellow humans.
We know what is right and wrong due to our god given conscience. But we don't necessarily act in the interest of what is good. But what we think may be good.
Hitler did and said what he thought was correct, just like any other individual with the the ability. For millions Hitler was saviour, and for millions he was a devil. There are millions who don't care either way.
God is interested in the eternal soul, not the temporary body. If you try and remember that, God will make more sense to you.
Jan.
Just because it function by what we know as mathematics, doesn't mean it is the origin. For all we know it may be a language, or something generated by mind, or a mind.
How did mathematics give rise to consciousness?
Jan.
What is God, in your opinion?
You need to answer this to make sense of what you said.
Can you elaborate on this analogy?
What would you consider proof of God's existence?
Jan.