Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Cris said:
Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris
Click to expand...

n0where in BIble...d0es it say that G0d is Omniscient
 
BEWARE OF GOD


"god is an insult to us thinkers..."

Christianity is for the weak minded. Who would believe in a god wich you cannot see on blind faith. Why not believe in what's in front of your eyes.....evolution? It is everywhere in this world. Just the fact that we used to not be that advanced as a society, and now have this complex technological world shows me that we evolve everyday. The fact that we used to be very "primitive", and now are smart intelligent human beings proves my point.Evolution is much more than 'apes turned into humans', as the Christians would classify it.It is about having a problem and overcoming it, evolving. Not paying to some false god for help, helping yourself. Why would god create a world wich is run by so much evil. Innocent people are hurt, and killed everyday. Christians claim it's because we humans make our own decisions. If we kill some- body we pay the price, wich is hell. Life is one big test in other words. Well how come those who are murdered don't have the choice to live and create their own destiny. How Come only the wicked are able to chose if you die or live. What kind of god would create a evil world like that? Definitely a evil one, wich Christians claim Jesus isn't. What kind of god would send you to hell just because you don't believe in him? It doesn't matter if you were good in life, you still go to hell. But, a murderer can kill and kill and at the last minute beg for redemp- tion and go to heaven. How can Christians be so ignorant and selfish to think that everyone should believe in there religion? There are so many other religions out there to believe in, why believe in Christianity? Christians think you should because it is the biggest religion in the world, so it must be the true one. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world because for centuries Christians have been shoving it down other cultures throats forcing them to believe. Christians forced the African slaves, Indians in America, even the Vikings in Norway long ago (just to name a few). Christians actually brainwashed these people into forgetting their heritage, there way of life. They did this not through the love of the lord, but rather weapons, slavery, and force. If there was a god, would he want it this way? Christians even bend there own rules if it fits there agenda's. To me Christianity is no more than a false sense of hope in people. People long ago could not explain the stars in the sky, fire, the great oceans and simple things like that. Things that ruled there everyday life. They could not understand how a race as great as man has no control over his environment. So they blamed it on a god that they created out of fear. Things are the way they are because god did it. It helps Christians to sleep better at night if they think 'god' is in control of their destiny. But they need to wake up and realize that they have control of their own life and destiny and god can't help them if someone has a gun to their head. In short "god" is a false sense of hope. But I choose to walk through life using sight, not faith. God is an insult to us thinkers...Christians are doing the same thing that the Indiand did long ago. The Indians would tell their kids great amazing stories and fables of why the world is the way it is. They made these stories up to ease their children's curiosity. But that's all they are is stories. The Indians know that, but why not the Christians. Christians pride themselves in being so smart, so almighty, special.........so stupid. I mean come on! Adam and Eve, the Great Flood, resurrection. The bible is no more than a book of fairy tales, to us who are smart enough to decode it. Christians claim it is the only book in history with no mistakes. I read and pick out many. Like Noah and getting 2 of every animal on the planet on a boat (yeah, fucking right!), or people living till there 300 years old, and even women being man's downfall (and the list goes on). If there was a god would he not be a she. Woman gives life in nature. In just about every aspect of nature, the woman gets the food to nourish her children, why the males only purpose in provision of sperm. Women are our creators. So why pick a sexist, racist male to be our god? Christians did because our world has always been a male dominated one. So if you were to make up a god why not make him the perfect man. Well that version of god, and us being in his image, has died out long ago, with the ignorance of Christianity. People today are starting to believe in themselves and not some false prophet on a cross. They believe that they can make there own life. The more I think about Christianity, the more I laugh at the arrogance, selfishness, and ignorance behind it.
 
thedevilmademe81 said:
BEWARE OF GOD

"god is an insult to us thinkers..."

Christianity is for the weak minded. Who would believe in a god wich you cannot see on blind faith. Why not believe in what's in front of your eyes.....evolution? It is everywhere in this world. Just the fact that we used to not be that advanced as a society, and now have this complex technological world shows me that we evolve everyday. The fact that we used to be very "primitive", and now are smart intelligent human beings proves my point.Evolution is much more than 'apes turned into humans', as the Christians would classify it.It is about having a problem and overcoming it, evolving. Not paying to some false god for help, helping yourself. Why would god create a world wich is run by so much evil. Innocent people are hurt, and killed everyday. Christians claim it's because we humans make our own decisions. If we kill somebody we pay the price, wich is hell. Life is one big test in other words. Well how come those who are murdered don't have the choice to live and create their own destiny. How Come only the wicked are able to chose if you die or live. What kind of god would create a evil world like that? Definitely a evil one, wich Christians claim Jesus isn't. What kind of god would send you to hell just because you don't believe in him? It doesn't matter if you were good in life, you still go to hell. But, a murderer can kill and kill and at the last minute beg for redemption and go to heaven. How can Christians be so ignorant and selfish to think that everyone should believe in there religion? There are so many other religions out there to believe in, why believe in Christianity? Christians think you should because it is the biggest religion in the world, so it must be the true one. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world because for centuries Christians have been shoving it down other cultures throats forcing them to believe. Christians forced the African slaves, Indians in America, even the Vikings in Norway long ago (just to name a few). Christians actually brainwashed these people into forgetting their heritage, there way of life. They did this not through the love of the lord, but rather weapons, slavery, and force. If there was a god, would he want it this way? Christians even bend there own rules if it fits there agenda's. To me Christianity is no more than a false sense of hope in people. People long ago could not explain the stars in the sky, fire, the great oceans and simple things like that. Things that ruled there everyday life. They could not understand how a race as great as man has no control over his environment. So they blamed it on a god that they created out of fear. Things are the way they are because god did it. It helps Christians to sleep better at night if they think 'god' is in control of their destiny. But they need to wake up and realize that they have control of their own life and destiny and god can't help them if someone has a gun to their head. In short "god" is a false sense of hope. But I choose to walk through life using sight, not faith. God is an insult to us thinkers... Christians are doing the same thing that the Indiand did long ago. The Indians would tell their kids great amazing stories and fables of why the world is the way it is. They made these stories up to ease their children's curiosity. But that's all they are is stories. The Indians know that, but why not the Christians. Christians pride themselves in being so smart, so almighty, special........so stupid. I mean come on! Adam and Eve, the Great Flood, resurrection. The bible is no more than a book of fairy tales, to us who are smart enough to decode it. Christians claim it is the only book in history with no mistakes. I read and pick out many. Like Noah and getting 2 of every animal on the planet on a boat (yeah, fucking right!), or people living till there 300 years old, and even women being man's downfall (and the list goes on). If there was a god would he not be a she. Woman gives life in nature. In just about every aspect of nature, the woman gets the food to nourish her children, why the males only purpose in provision of sperm. Women are our creators. So why pick a sexist, racist male to be our god? Christians did because our world has always been a male dominated one. So if you were to make up a god why not make him the perfect man. Well that version of god, and us being in his image, has died out long ago, with the ignorance of Christianity. People today are starting to believe in themselves and not some false prophet on a cross. They believe that they can make there own life. The more I think about Christianity, the more I laugh at the arrogance, selfishness, and ignorance behind it.
Click to expand...

*************
M*W: Although I agree with your sentiments, I'm sorry to say that I smell a sock puppet.
 
"Originally posted by Medicine Woman.
So why pick a sexist, racist male to be our god?" Kendall- God would not be sexist or racist!

"Originally posted by Medicine Woman.
Christians did because our world has always been a male dominated one."

Kendall- Close, if the world is male dominated then only a male can fix what is wrong, he is his sisters keeper to! Do not do the injustice put upon you. You think that Women dont have the same rights as men. Men do not have equal rights, I know of women with way more rights then me.
 
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thedevilmademe81 said:
Well I am glad that you agree but I am new to this so I have to ask you....what is a sock puppet?
Click to expand...

*************
M*W: Okay, maybe I'm wrong. A sock puppet is a member who signs up under another username and posts as two different people. (Mods: Correct me if I'm wrong).
 
Nickelodeon said:
Thats exactly what the Devil wants, he is actually very attractive and cuddly. If he wasnt it would be easy to ignore him.
Click to expand...

but you see I am in reality very cold person. I do not react to jokes...to smiles...to hatred...to evil...to good...I am just like nothing happened ever. So I do not have this shell of an attractive logo of a Peter Pan bus.
 
draqon said:
but you see I am in reality very cold person. I do not react to jokes...to smiles...to hatred...to evil...to good...I am just like nothing happened ever. So I do not have this shell of an attractive logo of a Peter Pan bus.
Click to expand...
I think that pretty much proves that the Christian God cannot exist.
 
Well i guess what I want is to live, just like anyone. And not to need to lie because of someone elses crime!
 
Maybe the concept of free will itself is paradoxical like the the claim that God is omniscient.

"You must choose free will. You have no choice."
 
knowing <> coericion

"Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined."
(disagree because knowing does not imply coercion. God can know the outcome without controlling the actions.)

"... knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action."
(but God does not have to take total action, He can choose to act or not.)
 
kl5k said:
"Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined."
(disagree because knowing does not imply coercion. God can know the outcome without controlling the actions.)

"... knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action."
(but God does not have to take total action, He can choose to act or not.)
Click to expand...

But did he know the outcomes before and as he was creating the universe and everything within it? If so...

And isn't taking no action, if you have the power to act, the same as taking an action? If a person steps in front of my car, several hundred feet down the road, and I do not budge, I keep my hands and feet exactly where they are, am I really not taking an action? What if I remove my hands and feet from the control surfaces and coast into the person at high speed? Am I less or more culpable then?

You are sticking up for a thing which doesn't exist, but if it did, is surely an evil abomination.
 
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