Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[Tiassa]

Back to Eden

So without omniscience, and without omnipotence, what is God? This is an interesting question, because it brings to the surface God's fear of mankind in the Garden of Eden: he drove Adam and Eve out because the Tree of Life was all that was needed to make mankind the equal of God. It's in the Bible, so I'm not sure what's so hard about this concept; but some of our Christian posters are doing their utmost to show it true, though the laughable thing is that I'm as sure as I can be that's not their intent.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Caleb]

he drove Adam and Eve out because the Tree of Life was all that was needed to make mankind the equal of God.

That was Satan's <i>lie</i>! Which apparently, you still believe?!?

Besides, if Satan had been telling the truth, we would all be gods right now.

~Caleb

 

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by Caleb

Yet all the people involved in the movie's production still have/had free will to decide how the movie will be made!!! Paradox broken.

Since God is outside of time, you could almost consider that He is looking back on history. He doesn't have to follow casuality if He is outside of time!

~Caleb

I wonder how 'free' the choices will be if you know the result already every time.

It like saying, "You can step in any direction you want, but I know you are going to step forward."

 

[Tiassa]

Caleb--

That was Satan's lie! Which apparently, you still believe?!?

Besides, if Satan had been telling the truth, we would all be gods right now.

What, pray tell, are you talking about? Hello? It's a Biblical event:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Gen. 3.22-23, KJV)

Hello?

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"--

therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. (Gen. 3.22-23, RSV)

How many Bibles would you like me to quote?

Please demonstrate that the words spoken by God in Genesis 3.22 and 23 are Satan's lie.

What, is the Bible itself subject to rewrite?

The Lord God said ... and that's Satan's lie?

What, sir, are you talking about?

And how would we be gods? Who has eaten from the Tree of Life? Our godhood is exactly what the Lord feared, and is the reason, according to the Bible (as cited above), for the expulsion of mankind from the Garden.

Like I said: It's in the Bible; what's so hard about this concept? Does it not match up well with what Christians wish God was?

Hello?

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Caleb]

Apologies - but still a major problem

My apologies on one point. I confused "Tree of Life" with "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"

However, it was Satans's lie that they would become as gods if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Note however, that he behaves just like a typical deceptive advertiser today will. He mixes a slight amount of truth with a subtle twist to arrive at a completely false statement. Satan said they would become like God, knowing good from evil. The deception in this case, is when he implies that they will actually become God, or when he implies that God has lied to them. This is enough to "sell the product" and we've been suffering ever since. In this since, it <i>is</i> Satan's lie that we can at all become like God. That God is somehow hiding something wonderful from us, or lying to us about something.

Regarding the Tree of Life God didn't want man to eat from it, <i>not because we would become equal to Him</i>, but so that we wouldn't be forced to live forever in a miserable life of seperation from Him, and sin on earth. In fact, it fits in with what I was saying earlier about God setting up His plan. The punishment for sin was death, and not eating from the ToL was part of that punishment. If man had eaten from the ToL and lived forever, how could God have implemented His plan to take our place by dying on the cross. If man had eaten of the ToL, then he would have been an eternaly sinful being, just like the demons. God didn't want that to happen to his beloved creation.

So let's look at those verses you posted, and see what God really says.

"Then the LORD God said,"

Yes, that's the Lord God, not Satan

"Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil;"

First, note that he uses past tense -- "has become" this is the result of having eaten from the ToKoG&E, since that had already past. It cannot refer to the ToL because they had not already eaten of it.

Second, note He says they became <i>like</i> Him <i>in the sense of knowing good and evil</i>. In other words, they had eaten, and now they knew what it was like to do evil, and now they had a consience and all that, and in that respect, they were <i>like</i> God, <b>not equal to Him</b>.

From here, your assertation seems to be that if they had eaten from the ToL they would have been equal to God. But what does God actually say?

"and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

He says they would live forever. Is that all that would be necessary to make them like God? Absolutely not!!! They would have had none of His divinity, none of His power, none of His presence, none of His person, none of His perfection (they were sinners, remeber), none of His holiness, and none of His knowledge!!! Shall I continue?

After that, it just says God drove man out of the garden. If God feared our living forever, then why would He send "His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish, but have <i>everlasting life</i>?"

~Caleb

 

[Caleb]

Reality Check

So without omniscience, and without omnipotence, what is God?

<b>HE IS who HE IS.</b>

He is the God of the Bible:
The unchanging God "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
The God who says "will never leave thee nor forsake thee" if you call upon His name.
He is the God who "shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
He is the God who "is my Shepherd" and who "restoreth my soul"
He is the God who allows me to boldly say "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me."
He is the God who "prepares a place" for me.
He is the God with whom it is impossible to lie.
He is the God "without all contradiction."
He is the God who "will do great things."
He is the God "who only doeth wondrous things."
He is the God that sendeth "every good and pefect gift... from above"
He is the God who "shall neither slumber nor sleep."
He is the God who created the entire universe in 7 days with nothing but a few mere words.
He is the God by whom "All things were made... and without him was not any thing made that was made."
He is the God by whom "all things [were] created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
He is the God whose glory is declared in the heavens.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
He is the God who says "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
He is the God who "ruleth by his power for ever"
He is the God who "laid the foundations of the earth."
He is the God from whom the mountains flee, and the earth trembles.
He is the God who answers out of the whirlwind."
He is the God who "commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him."
He is the God who "because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself."
He is the just God, who "According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies;"
He is "upright: and there is no unrighteousness in him."
He is the God who "cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"
His "throne is established of old: [He is] from everlasting."
He is the God who "reigneth, [and] he is clothed with majesty; [he] is clothed with strength."
He is the "judge of the earth."
He is the God who "shalt break them with a rod of iron;" and "shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
He is the just God, who "will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity;"
He is the loving God who created all of us and gives us breath each day.
He is the God who will do "whatsoever ye shall ask in [His] name"
He is the God who "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
He is the God who "is not slack concerning his promise."
He is my Rock and my Salvation, He is the lifter of my head.
He is my sheild and my sustainer.
He is the potter.
He is the High Priest and the King.
He is eternal, He is holy, He is just, He is loving.
He is the God who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows."
He is the God who has the keys to Death and Hades
He is the God who can raise us from the dead.
He is the God who "shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence"
He is the God who shows "mercy unto thousands of them that love [Him], and keep [His] commandments."
He is the God who "commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
He is the God who "so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life"!!!

<b><i>"Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne,...for ever and ever....AMEN!!!"</i></b>

~Caleb

 

[Tiassa]

And it's your delusion, Caleb

However, it was Satans's lie that they would become as gods if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

A lie? God seemed to fear the same thing. Why are you so desperate to blame it all on Satan? You can't even demonstrate that Satan has a purpose except as God wills. Which makes him extraneous, unless he's God's flak man, at least.

Note however, that he behaves just like a typical deceptive advertiser today will. He mixes a slight amount of truth with a subtle twist to arrive at a completely false statement. Satan said they would become like God, knowing good from evil. The deception in this case, is when he implies that they will actually become God, or when he implies that God has lied to them.

I repeat, from the Bible:

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"--

therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. (Gen. 3.22-23, RSV)

Do you see any mention of Satan in that passage? What was the lie again? Did Satan forget to mention the second tree or something?

This is enough to "sell the product" and we've been suffering ever since.

That's God's decision. Just because God set man up to force you to feel insignificant doesn't make it right. It's kind of like a battered wife: just because she stays doesn't make the beatings right.

Regarding the Tree of Life God didn't want man to eat from it, not because we would become equal to Him, but so that we wouldn't be forced to live forever in a miserable life of seperation from Him, and sin on earth.

I believe the passage in the Bible speaks of equality. I don't see the misery of separation there.

Regarding the Tree of Life God didn't want man to eat from it, not because we would become equal to Him, but so that we wouldn't be forced to live forever in a miserable life of seperation from Him, and sin on earth. In fact, it fits in with what I was saying earlier about God setting up His plan. The punishment for sin was death, and not eating from the ToL was part of that punishment. If man had eaten from the ToL and lived forever, how could God have implemented His plan to take our place by dying on the cross. If man had eaten of the ToL, then he would have been an eternaly sinful being, just like the demons. God didn't want that to happen to his beloved creation.

Since nothing happens in God's Universe without God's say-so, I'm not impressed. Or is God's Will ineffective in the Universe?

So let's look at those verses you posted, and see what God really says.

I believe you pinned it on the head:

After that, it just says God drove man out of the garden. If God feared our living forever, then why would He send "His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life?"

Because He is God and wants it to be that way; it is a method of ensuring human servitude and devotion. You'll note in the end that He wishes for Humanity to evolve out of the Living Universe, as well. You were born into a state of separation because God chose that it should be that way. I know you want to love Him, but you have to understand at some point that you're just lying to yourself if you blame Satan.

HE IS who HE IS.

Regarding this post: that's wonderful, dear. How old were you when you were taught to believe that?

But he is not a God who can love purely, for he requires a toll for his love.

He is not an honest God, for he is known to lie.

He is, indeed, a jealous God, demanding the destruction of entire cultures.

He is, indeed an angry God, who would throw you into the lake of fire for the state of separation that he has willed upon you.

He is, essentially, a racketeer.

And it shows. Given the deadly history of this religion, I tend to think my interpretation is more accurate to the religion's relationship with the human endeavor.

Next time you choose to enumerate your smallness, try being genuine. It's much more impressive.

--Tiassa

 

[DEVILDOG]

caleb


Watching a movie and being god can't be compared. Even if you were to watch the movie 100,000 times, I'm quite sure there will be at least one, if not several small details you will likely miss or forget. If you were to go back in time, as you said, you would have changed the course of history. Let's just say you happen to sneeze, someone politely says, "Bless you." The original course of history would not have had that person saying that. Every person who sees or comes in contact with you is changed, so history is changed. Who is to say that the movie will come out the same way, now that history has changed.
OK, you go back in time,you will remember everything you unintentionally changed, and how it was before the change, because you caused the change. Would this not change the future, after the point when you decided to go back in time?
My point being, as of now there are no "time machines"(other than clocks, watches, etc.), So your idea may have been well intended, but no proof was offered. The paradox is still alive and well. Hell, who knows we may actually be a part of someone else's DREAM, and all of this may not really be happening. Wait, I should watch what I say, that statement may start a new religion....DREAMOLOGISM.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: Reality Check

Originally posted by Caleb


<b>HE IS who HE IS.</b>

Thanks for clearing up his identity for me. "I am what I am, and that's all that I am." (Popeye)

<b>He is the God who has the keys to Death and Hades
</b>

This little quote reminded me that YOUR god, has the very same powers that Zeus had. Amazing isn't it. Zeus was one up on him though, he could change anyone, anyway he wanted to, at anytime.

 

[Caleb]

side note

As an interesting side note, One can conjecture, that if there were a hypothetical "perfect being", he could not change. If He is perfect, then there is no way he can become better, therefore, any change would be a change for the worse. But he if he were to change for the worse, he would not be perfect in the first place. It's like being at the North Pole. No matter which way you go, its always South.

~Caleb

 

[Tiassa]

Hmm ....

One can conjecture, that if there were a hypothetical "perfect being", he could not change.

This is a theological quandary that has plagued Catholic diabology throughout. The issue there, of course, was the necessity of the Devil versus the responsibility of God for evil versus the idea that God is Goodness. It is also the basis of the assertion that God has no learning curve.

What, then, of the imperfect creations of God? Is this by design or necessity? Either way, then, the sin and debauchery of the world is perfection, for it is the will of a perfect and unchanging God. It does make it easier to look a starving child in the eye and say, "But this is Good that you're dying painfully, for God wills it."

No matter which way you go, its always South.

Not necessarily.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[dan1123]

It does make it easier to look a starving child in the eye and say, "But this is Good that you're dying painfully, for God wills it."

If the Christian God were like what you say, he would have sent down Buddha rather than Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus heal so many people if "God wills it" to happen? If death was God's design, then why would Jesus reverse it even once? Humanity is in rebellion against God, who is sovereign above all things (He has the last word), but He does not <i>will</i> everything to happen. This idea comes from fatalistic Babylonian religions rather than the Bible. After all, where would our freedom come from if God had to will every choice we made?

 

[Tiassa]

Passamaquoddy

Why would Jesus heal so many people if "God wills it" to happen? If death was God's design, then why would Jesus reverse it even once?

P.R. stunt. It's all about dominion. Jesus pulled a classic swindle: hop down, perform a few miracles, say, "Worship God, but nobody can get to his reward except through me," sign up the yokels, get their currency (souls), say, "Oops, I've gotta go out to the car to get your reward!" and takes off, leaving only a note that he'll be back someday.

Yes, it's absurd. So is that deity you've got going there.

Humanity is in rebellion against God, who is sovereign above all things (He has the last word), but He does not will everything to happen.

* Whatever.

* Humanity is in rebellion because God wanted it that way.
* Humanity is in rebellion because God blundered.

Take your choice.

After all, where would our freedom come from if God had to will every choice we made?

That's what blackmail is for. You know, the reward and the punishment? (I have made you in this fashion unacceptable to me; kiss my ass every day or I'll punish you for being unacceptable to me.)

--Tiassa

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: side note

Originally posted by Caleb

It's like being at the North Pole. No matter which way you go, its always South.

~Caleb

So, let me get this straight....
I'm standing at the North Pole, I pull out my trusty Batman Compass, Look at the arrow pointing North, Follow it, And I'm heading South??????
Not the most convincing analogy to get me to convert.

Christianity MUST say god is perfect. Who in thier right mind would follow an imperfect god on just faith? They will also say anything to keep their followers. Let's take,for instance, the original Catholic belief that your not suppose to eat meat on any Friday. The pope comes along and he decides hey you know what, I really like meat, lets just change that rule to you can eat meat on friday except during Lent.

While on the subject of the pope, isn't he worshiped just a little to much? He maybe preaching the catholic god's word, but that doesn't make everything he says the gospel. He is after all just a man. Not to mention the fact that most of the religions follow the same book of instruction yet they believe differently. So which is the correct path to follow, or do all roads lead NORTH

 

[Rambler]

Which way from the north pole,

Caleb (how's this then?),

I'm at the north pole (dead on) I put on my rocket pack and head straight up...... am I still going south??? Just jokes Caleb I did understand the point you were making...but I couldn't resist.

Sorry for butting in guys.....

Now dan or Caleb or Loone, or preferably someone who believes that this god listens and cares....could you ask it why its given up on healing (since you brought it up Dan)...in particular the thousands of children dying of AIDS in Africa???? I'd love one of you to ask that shithead up there what the go is???? We don't need to see a statue cry or visions of saints...how about just a little compasion for those who need it!!!!!!!


I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer....

 

[Deadwood]

Ah yes, God does care. He heals many. But when I say that He heals and give testimonies of Gods healing at work many of the people on this forum just scoff. Especially when I told you about Vanuatu, the following posts just told me how we were taking advantage of third world countries and that because they are uneducated and gullible they would just believe anything.

People from third world countries are just like that of first world countries. Just poorer. Intelligence is not a dependent variable on how much money you have. I beleive the smartest person in the world lives in a third world country.

Rambler I hope you don't do the same.

But anyway, because we have sinned, we get sick. This is why. we are not perfect. God chooses who He heals. In heaven, everyone will be healed. However, here, it is a huge blessing to receive healing. Jesus healed many people He came across. This is who God is. I know many people who have been healed of various ailments.

One person I know was told by God to pray with her next door neighbour who was having a heart operation. She felt really shy and didn't go over. But, as it happened, just before the person had to have the operation. She was told (not by God this time) that she had to drive him over to the hospital. So as it happened, she was driving him to the hospital and on the way she stopped the car and asked him if she could pray over him. So he said yes. As it happened, when the man went to the operating table, he ended up being sent back out because he had nothing wrong with him. Not only was he healed but he also saved a lot of money.

Another story. A person I know has numerous times had to get skin cancers removed. This particular one, had to be removed surgically. Before the operation, he had asked some people from prayer group(Roman Catholic by the way) to pray for him. So they prayed, and well you know the story, he was sent out of the operating room, because there was nothing to operate on.

Another story, one woman I know had a broken foot. She was prayed over, and the broken foot was healed then and there. No more of them thingy's you have to walk with.

Another story. One person I know had epilepsy since he was young and had to have tablets. People prayed for him over a period of time. And well you know the story, he doesn't have to take any more tablets for epilepsy.

Jesus Christ has also used one of my church ministers to do every single miracle that Jesus did in the Gospel except heal leprosy. Because he has never met anyone with Leprosy. Even brought back two people from the dead.

Angels have been seen in and around our church also.

You see healing is a very huge blessing, not a right. Also, I think this may have been mentioned earlier. If God just healed everyone, then we wouldn't have the free will to believe in Him or not. We would just know He exists. However, God does give us proof of His existence, which is also another huge blessing, but whether you want to believe this proof or not, is purely up to you. Know one can choose for you.

Doctors cannot explain these healings. So it is up to you. This is freewill. As it stands (this is what I believe, so please bare with me) the only way back to God, is through Jesus christ. I don't know about the ones who never get a chance. But remember, the Christian God is a just and merciful God. His mercy is also greater than His justice. Not even all Christians get healed. We may be given a "thorn in the flesh" so as we don't exalt ourselves. I think that would happen in the current state of the world if everyone were healed as much I would love everyone to be healed. I think that people would start assuming equallity with God. But this is my view. I realise many peoples views differ, so please, don't laugh at me, explain to me why you think I am right or wrong.

Thanks

 

[Deadwood]

Sorry, also something that I forgot to mention is that, Christians are meant to suffer.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Originally posted by Deadwood


Jesus Christ has also used one of my church ministers to do every single miracle that Jesus did in the Gospel except heal leprosy. Because he has never met anyone with Leprosy. Even brought back two people from the dead.

Angels have been seen in and around our church also.

Let's get some facts:

1. Minister's name.
2. Church's name.
3. Resurected's names.
4. Media's names that covered the story.
5. Any other proof of said events(not including hearsay.

Doctors cannot explain these healings. So it is up to you.

Science has proven the mind has the power to heal the body. Firewalkers for example believe that their faith prevents them from being burned, science has proven that a chemical is not released from their brain, as well as severe callusses on their feet and thus prevents the effect of burn scars.

 

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by Deadwood
But anyway, because we have sinned, we get sick.

After all these years, you still believe we get sick because we have sinned?

Don't tell me satan made all the virus and germs. Are we having a second creator here?

 

[dan1123]

I think he's talking about original sin... A sort of Pandora's box in a fruit if you will... Probably it is more indirect than that though--without access to the tree of life we're all destined to die, and maybe the fruit from the tree of life worked as some sort of universal medicine--but this is all speculation. The only sure thing from the Bible is that in the Garden of Eden, no human would ever get sick and die. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit and got kicked out, there is sickness and death. How exactly is up for grabs.